Female Friendzone?

[Vegosiux]

And I welcome you to your opinion. Obviously, I hold my own accomplishments in higher regard but I think it's stupid and dishonest to not recognize that we compare ourselves to other people and rank ourselves accordingly. We should just be honest with ourselves as a society and indulge in a little schadenfreude now and again.

I don't see how "does not hold own accomplishment in high regard" follows from "doesn't see the need to compare own accomplishments to others'". If anything, it looks reversed to me; if you don't feel your accomplishments are "good" unless they're "better than someone else's" it comes across as if you weren't too convinced of their value beforehand.

And schadenfreude is a douchey thing, I draw the line at "just desserts" - enjoying someone else's misfortune purely because it makes me look good in comparison would make me feel downright disgusting.

Or in other words, if "creepers" and "NiceGuys?" get "friendzoned", that's "just desserts", but acting smugly superior towards someone who is neither and is simply disappointed/saddened because something bad just happened to them is something I'm above. Really, I'd start thinking "What kind of a loser am I if I can only feel truly good about myself when looking down on others?"

 

[ellieallegro]

I don't see how "does not hold own accomplishment in high regard" follows from "doesn't see the need to compare own accomplishments to others'". If anything, it looks reversed to me; if you don't feel your accomplishments are "good" unless they're "better than someone else's" it comes across as if you weren't too convinced of their value beforehand.

Again that is your opinion. You can see it anyway you like but it sounds to me someone doth protest too much

And schadenfreude is a douchey thing, I draw the line at "just desserts" - enjoying someone else's misfortune purely because it makes me look good in comparison would make me feel downright disgusting.

Well yeeeee ha, grab me a trucker hat, some lipliner no lipstick and a penis inspector t-shirt two sizes too small because I must be a douche then. I am not above admitting to rapturous glee when, in this uncaring and unfeeling universe, I have the rare occasion to live just long enough to be there when they cut off my bitchy or creeptastic colleagues heads and stick them on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at their lifeless eyes and wave like this. Tee hee.

Or in other words, if "creepers" and "NiceGuys?" get "friendzoned", that's "just desserts", but acting smugly superior towards someone who is neither and is simply disappointed/saddened because something bad just happened to them is something I'm above. Really, I'd start thinking "What kind of a loser am I if I can only feel truly good about myself when looking down on others?"

Sounds like you need to turn that frown upside down.

 

[Aramis Night]

I don't see how "does not hold own accomplishment in high regard" follows from "doesn't see the need to compare own accomplishments to others'". If anything, it looks reversed to me; if you don't feel your accomplishments are "good" unless they're "better than someone else's" it comes across as if you weren't too convinced of their value beforehand.

Again that is your opinion. You can see it anyway you like but it sounds to me someone doth protest too much

And schadenfreude is a douchey thing, I draw the line at "just desserts" - enjoying someone else's misfortune purely because it makes me look good in comparison would make me feel downright disgusting.

Well yeeeee ha, grab me a trucker hat, some lipliner no lipstick and a penis inspector t-shirt two sizes too small because I must be a douche then. I am not above admitting to rapturous glee when, in this uncaring and unfeeling universe, I have the rare occasion to live just long enough to be there when they cut off my bitchy or creeptastic colleagues heads and stick them on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at their lifeless eyes and wave like this. Tee hee.

Or in other words, if "creepers" and "NiceGuys?" get "friendzoned", that's "just desserts", but acting smugly superior towards someone who is neither and is simply disappointed/saddened because something bad just happened to them is something I'm above. Really, I'd start thinking "What kind of a loser am I if I can only feel truly good about myself when looking down on others?"

Sounds like you need to turn that frown upside down.

I was going to post something else about the value of empathy, and the difference between self-respect and dignity vs. arrogance. Then i saw you mention you live in LA and i realized there would be no point. Sadly i've known too many people from their to even try to challenge this. I was actually starting to wonder if you were an ex of mine when you started going on in your attempt to debunk love as anything more than a choice to be decided on a whim. You actually made me feel bad for anyone who might one day love you. If my self-respect was based on looking down on others i would feel really good about myself thanks to you, but i don't.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

People, mostly women incapable of sympathy? Business as usual!

 

[amara2021]

I'm sure it happens a lot. Girls just don't worry about it as much. I'm no ones "Ideal" woman. I'm just sitting here playing video games and eating candy while all the guys are wrapped around some dippy "hot" chick's finger while they complain about friend-zones to me, whining that no girl want's a nice guy and say they should just give up. I tell them I'd like a nice guy. They say "Aww thanks" and run off after the other girl again.

 

[ellieallegro]

I was going to post something else about the value of empathy, and the difference between self-respect and dignity vs. arrogance. Then i saw you mention you live in LA and i realized there would be no point. Sadly i've known too many people from their to even try to challenge this. I was actually starting to wonder if you were an ex of mine when you started going on in your attempt to debunk love as anything more than a choice to be decided on a whim. You actually made me feel bad for anyone who might one day love you. If my self-respect was based on looking down on others i would feel really good about myself thanks to you, but i don't.

Good, I'm glad we got that settled. Empathy as a valued commodity in LA... HA! Maybe if you are a therapist. I never said love was anything more than a choice to be decided on a whim. Dating someone who you are infatuated with, however, can be decided on a whim.

Therumancer got it right in describing the friendzone as a cultural shorthand for a relationship trope. Getting zoned has nothing to do with love. I think people are under the misconception (due to pop culture and general lack of life experience, no doubt) that laboring as a creepy friend stalker and being at someones beck and call in order to please them out of their pants only to turn around and shake your fist at the sky screaming why doesn't X love me when it doesn't work out.... I think we have all been infatuated with someone and fantasized about something that isn't there at one point in our lives but the realization that not all people are into you, some people are users and will screw with your emotions because they can and you shouldn't change yourself to fit anyone's ideal is a lesson that should be learned in high school/freshman year of college. If you aren't at that point in your life yet well have fun with that... it's one to grow on. However, if you are an adult and haven't learned that lesson by now then I'm sorry, the give a shit store is all sold out.

Imho, nice guy and gal predators/creepers (tm) follow what I like to call the "what's your type?" logic. It's where they ask one of the most inane questions in the history of human courtship. Soooooo.... what's your type? When what they really mean to say is how can I subtly manipulate you by changing my spots and appearing as something I'm not in order to be more attractive to you. This is what I call the date chimera. It's a great litmus test, for me personally, because if you were my type and you were into me as well, you wouldn't have to ask such a stupid question because we would already be naked. Just sayin.

 

[TKretts3]

I've had women take a fancy to me in the past, even with the knowledge that I'm into men. So yes, you could say that I've friendzoned some in the past.

 

[Aramis Night]

I was going to post something else about the value of empathy, and the difference between self-respect and dignity vs. arrogance. Then i saw you mention you live in LA and i realized there would be no point. Sadly i've known too many people from their to even try to challenge this. I was actually starting to wonder if you were an ex of mine when you started going on in your attempt to debunk love as anything more than a choice to be decided on a whim. You actually made me feel bad for anyone who might one day love you. If my self-respect was based on looking down on others i would feel really good about myself thanks to you, but i don't.

Good, I'm glad we got that settled. Empathy as a valued commodity in LA... HA! Maybe if you are a therapist. I never said love was anything more than a choice to be decided on a whim. Dating someone who you are infatuated with, however, can be decided on a whim.

Therumancer got it right in describing the friendzone as a cultural shorthand for a relationship trope. Getting zoned has nothing to do with love. I think people are under the misconception (due to pop culture and general lack of life experience, no doubt) that laboring as a creepy friend stalker and being at someones beck and call in order to please them out of their pants only to turn around and shake your fist at the sky screaming why doesn't X love me when it doesn't work out.... I think we have all been infatuated with someone and fantasized about something that isn't there at one point in our lives but the realization that not all people are into you, some people are users and will screw with your emotions because they can and you shouldn't change yourself to fit anyone's ideal is a lesson that should be learned in high school/freshman year of college. If you aren't at that point in your life yet well have fun with that... it's one to grow on. However, if you are an adult and haven't learned that lesson by now then I'm sorry, the give a shit store is all sold out.

Imho, nice guy and gal predators/creepers (tm) follow what I like to call the "what's your type?" logic. It's where they ask one of the most inane questions in the history of human courtship. Soooooo.... what's your type? When what they really mean to say is how can I subtly manipulate you by changing my spots and appearing as something I'm not in order to be more attractive to you. This is what I call the date chimera. It's a great litmus test, for me personally, because if you were my type and you were into me as well, you wouldn't have to ask such a stupid question because we would already be naked. Just sayin.

Not everyone gets these kinds of lessons in high school. A lot of guys have no experience till after high school. In my freshman year of high school, i was fairly certain i would be alone forever(made peace with it). Didn't get proven wrong till junior year. I thought i was behind the curve compared to my peers. Turned out i wasn't. Most of my friends lost their virginity later in life. Didn't get my heart torn out from emotional manipulation till i was 19. Most of my friends were shocked and appalled at how i was treated, wasn't just a shock to me. When it would later happen to them, they would come to me on advice because i had been through it before them it turned out, yet again.

Not everyone has the fortune of having naked bodies just flying at them when they open their bedroom door. We don't all just want sex(sex included, sure). Some people want relationships that are beyond just a mercenary exchange of bodily fluids. The idea that someone can care about you enough to make you a priority is powerful. For some people it can even give their lives meaning. I've been alone. I don't mind it but i don't like myself very much. I respect myself, but that's about it.

Men suck at courtship and most of us expect to because we lack experience/instruction/direction. They expect to have to put in more work than just asking if a woman is interested. So they behave like a "Nice Guy" because they think that its the equivalent of putting in work and effort towards a relationship. The idea that it could be as easy as just asking a girl out doesn't make sense to us because nothing good in life comes that easy. We have it beaten into us about how we have to put in effort and work for everything. That nothing is going to just be given to us without us earning it. So when a guy finally gets up the nerve to ask if she has any interest, and she rebukes him and tells him to just be friends, he doubles down. he thinks that he hasn't yet earned it and he has to try harder. It becomes a cycle. Eventually it frustrates him and the next thing he knows, he's complaining about being friend zoned.

 

[mitchell271]

I just friendzoned a girl so yes, it definitely exists. Makes it awkward for a little bit though.

 

[Vegosiux]

Sounds like you need to turn that frown upside down.

It's more of a "I've got a fish-hook in my eyebrow" kind of thing, really. But, what can I say, I understand some people can't be as awesome as I am ^^

 

[Xisin]

Man, I'm terrible at this topic. I don't really understand "the friend zone." I'm a girl with almost entirely male friends and I'm called "just one of the guys" a lot. But I'm also married to one of those guys, so I think I'm disqualified...(?)

I think for me, the term is weird. If a person approaches me with a proposition to start a relationship and I decline, isn't that the end of my responsibility?

 

[ellieallegro]

Not everyone gets these kinds of lessons in high school. A lot of guys have no experience till after high school.

What else is there to do in high school besides get this kind of experience... Granted, if you went to a private prep school then maybe I can see how your studies could take up your time but has high school really changed that much since the eighties? And you will notice I did mention the freshman year of college.

Men suck at courtship and most of us expect to because we lack experience/instruction/direction. They expect to have to put in more work than just asking if a woman is interested. So they behave like a "Nice Guy" because they think that its the equivalent of putting in work and effort towards a relationship. The idea that it could be as easy as just asking a girl out doesn't make sense to us because nothing good in life comes that easy. We have it beaten into us about how we have to put in effort and work for everything. That nothing is going to just be given to us without us earning it. So when a guy finally gets up the nerve to ask if she has any interest, and she rebukes him and tells him to just be friends, he doubles down. he thinks that he hasn't yet earned it and he has to try harder. It becomes a cycle. Eventually it frustrates him and the next thing he knows, he's complaining about being friend zoned.

This is not necessarily a man thing on either front. Women can suck at courtship too, believe me I've dated a few before that were horrible at it (for me at least). I get that to some people it can seem like you just haven't put in enough effort but this can apply to both genders as well. "Oh you poor thing, you will never find a man looking/acting/doing that" Society constantly tells women they should spend tons of money, effort and time to act this way, go to the gym more, buy this dress, wear this makeup etc etc. Whatever.

This brings me full circle to my original point: Be upfront and honest with yourself and the people who you fancy (and only date those who do the same). Let's be honest, most people know right away if they find someone attractive and hey maybe something more with come out of it so why don't more people just put it out there at the start? If someone isn't interested, DON'T double-down. Find someone else.

It has been my experience that when a relationship starts off with a game (like chase me chase me, let's just be friends... and maybe more, I really like guys/girls who do this for me hint hint or some variation on that theme) then it sets a bad precedent because what happens when the games are over or they get tired and one party doesn't want to play anymore? Protip for you guys (and ladies) out there: Anybody who reads cosmo for more than the entertainment value or wants to be chased is just, pardon the profanity, fucking with you.

 

[m72_ar]

The whole friendzone thing is overplayed.

Wanna leave the zone? Ask him/her
He/She will either say yes, in which case YAAAYY or He/She will say no in which case not Yay but at least you know you're going nowhere

Don't have the balls to ask?
Then the whole situation is your own bloody fault and you got no one else to blame

 

[Draitheryn]

Ive friendzoned girls for various reasons. Basically, in the dating world, most guys and most girls have different categories for who they will and will not date. Girls have "acceptable" and "unacceptable", guys have those 2 + "youll do for now" (this is not always the case, and some girls do this too). I'm more honest than that now, after really hurting a few girls, and the girls that would have been "youll do for now" for me once, are fwb, and I make sure they are aware I want nothing more than companionship from them, this is usually between relationships for me. Those girls I would considered "friendzoned" to me. Usually when a guy gets friendzoned its because hes unattractive in some way(this could be because hes a pussy or hasnt established himself as a sexual human being. I used to get friendzoned when I was younger, it sucks, its frustrating. Now I have a lot more self-respect and confidence, women take notice of that, and have never been friendzoned again... um. The End.

 

[Vegosiux]

I'm more honest than that now, after really hurting a few girls, and the girls that would have been "youll do for now" for me once, are fwb, and I make sure they are aware I want nothing more than companionship from them, this is usually between relationships for me. Those girls I would considered "friendzoned" to me. Usually when a guy gets friendzoned its because hes unattractive in some way(this could be because hes a pussy or hasnt established himself as a sexual human being. I used to get friendzoned when I was younger, it sucks, its frustrating. Now I have a lot more self-respect and confidence, women take notice of that, and have never been friendzoned again... um. The End.

Ehh, this somehow does not compute. I mean, I get what you're saying, but how does the amount of sex you're getting have anything to do with

a) being romantically rejected/accepted
b) how much self-respect and confidence you have?

I mean, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Or live a life.

 

[Aramis Night]

Not everyone gets these kinds of lessons in high school. A lot of guys have no experience till after high school.

What else is there to do in high school besides get this kind of experience... Granted, if you went to a private prep school then maybe I can see how your studies could take up your time but has high school really changed that much since the eighties? And you will notice I did mention the freshman year of college.

Men suck at courtship and most of us expect to because we lack experience/instruction/direction. They expect to have to put in more work than just asking if a woman is interested. So they behave like a "Nice Guy" because they think that its the equivalent of putting in work and effort towards a relationship. The idea that it could be as easy as just asking a girl out doesn't make sense to us because nothing good in life comes that easy. We have it beaten into us about how we have to put in effort and work for everything. That nothing is going to just be given to us without us earning it. So when a guy finally gets up the nerve to ask if she has any interest, and she rebukes him and tells him to just be friends, he doubles down. he thinks that he hasn't yet earned it and he has to try harder. It becomes a cycle. Eventually it frustrates him and the next thing he knows, he's complaining about being friend zoned.

This is not necessarily a man thing on either front. Women can suck at courtship too, believe me I've dated a few before that were horrible at it (for me at least). I get that to some people it can seem like you just haven't put in enough effort but this can apply to both genders as well. "Oh you poor thing, you will never find a man looking/acting/doing that" Society constantly tells women they should spend tons of money, effort and time to act this way, go to the gym more, buy this dress, wear this makeup etc etc. Whatever.

This brings me full circle to my original point: Be upfront and honest with yourself and the people who you fancy (and only date those who do the same). Let's be honest, most people know right away if they find someone attractive and hey maybe something more with come out of it so why don't more people just put it out there at the start? If someone isn't interested, DON'T double-down. Find someone else.

It has been my experience that when a relationship starts off with a game (like chase me chase me, let's just be friends... and maybe more, I really like guys/girls who do this for me hint hint or some variation on that theme) then it sets a bad precedent because what happens when the games are over or they get tired and one party doesn't want to play anymore? Protip for you guys (and ladies) out there: Anybody who reads cosmo for more than the entertainment value or wants to be chased is just, pardon the profanity, fucking with you.

Didn't realize that you meant college instead of high school. You do realize that most men don't go to college. Most of us do however at least get as far as high school. And not every guy has options in high school to get any such experience with. Most women seem to spend high school chasing after popular boys and not everyone gets to be popular in high school. I know i wasn't. I'm sure it's probably something women deal with as well when they are unpopular.

The difference in all the examples you describe for women sucking at courtship are all related to passive attractive qualities. Everything you mentioned women attempt to do to make themselves more attractive to get the guy they want also has the side effect of making themselves more attractive to not just that one guy but every guy. It actually helps them to cast a larger net. One the other hand, a man devoting himself to one women doesn't have that benefit. In fact it hurts men who behave like this by making them look contemptible and pathetic to other woman. It becomes an all or nothing tactic. And your right, it is a bad idea.

But no one explains any of this to young men. Men assume women would respond the same way they would. The fact that boys are brought up to believe in the lack of social differences between the sexes doesn't help. A woman showing them that kind of devotion would be a dream for most men. It's misguided empathy. I don't see why we should blame them or mock them for it. Men just don't get any instruction on these matters growing up that doesn't come from cheesy, ridiculous sources.

 

[ellieallegro]

Didn't realize that you meant college instead of high school. You do realize that most men don't go to college. Most of us do however at least get as far as high school.

Well, all I can say to that is their are more "traditional" opportunities available to men right out of high school. That is why more women are going to college, I agree, but that isn't an excuse. If you decide that you want to get a job instead of an education of any sort (including training in a trade or apprenticeship not just a run of the mill Bachelors degree) whatever your gender that that is on you. That isn't an excuse for lack of maturity or life experience.

Snip... a man devoting himself to one women doesn't have that benefit. In fact it hurts men who behave like this by making them look contemptible and pathetic to other woman. It becomes an all or nothing tactic. And your right, it is a bad idea.

But no one explains any of this to young men. Men assume women would respond the same way they would. The fact that boys are brought up to believe in the lack of social differences between the sexes doesn't help. A woman showing them that kind of devotion would be a dream for most men. It's misguided empathy. I don't see why we should blame them or mock them for it. Men just don't get any instruction on these matters growing up that doesn't come from cheesy, ridiculous sources.

Nobody is forcing men to be slavishly devoted to another without getting their affections returned; furthermore, nobody is forcing women to obsess about their weight and have umpteenth little bottles of half empty lipgloss in their bag either. Seriously, ladies, we need to break our goo collecting habit Not to get off topic...

Fear of rejection is not an excuse for a lack of experience and maturity at a certain age. Nobody explains this to young men you say? Men just don't get any instruction, you say? Nobody explains shit to ladies either. (Sarcasm meter reaching critical) You think there is some sort of grand gender conspiracy and that women get a super secret handbook on how to date and be in a relationship? Because mine got lost in the post.

People need to get out there, be rejected, collect some horrible dating stories like pokemon, live life. This is the only way to gain some f'ing perspective and maturity so that when you are ready to date someone who matters, you can cut through all the game playing bullshit. That is always my advice to people. If you put yourself out there and it works out great, if it doesn't then you lick your wounds, learn something and move on... it will just become another funny story you tell later in life anyway.

 

[Andalusa]

Most of my friends are male. I've never been attracted to them at any point so I've never asked them out and been rejected. I do believe the mystical "friendzone" is something a person puts themselves in to. If a girl just wants to be friends, be friends, be happy and stop bitching about it, or maybe you just shouldn't be friends with them, cut your losses and move on.

 

[Vegosiux]

Well, all I can say to that is their are more "traditional" opportunities available to men right out of high school. That is why more women are going to college, I agree, but that isn't an excuse. If you decide that you want to get a job instead of an education of any sort (including training in a trade or apprenticeship not just a run of the mill Bachelors degree) whatever your gender that that is on you. That isn't an excuse for lack of maturity or life experience.

I'm sorry, what are you on about?

People need to get out there, be rejected, collect some horrible dating stories like pokemon, live life. This is the only way to gain some f'ing perspective and maturity so that when you are ready to date someone who matters, you can cut through all the game playing bullshit. That is always my advice to people. If you put yourself out there and it works out great, if it doesn't then you lick your wounds, learn something and move on... it will just become another funny story you tell later in life anyway.

Still, I'm sorry, what are you on about? Are you trying to say there's a "checklist" of things you need to do before you can get your "has lived a life" badge? That there's a "one right way" to live a life? Really, this comes across as incredibly presumptuous.

I never got the memo. What's with all this "need to" deal with the relationship stuff? Nobody "has to" and an eventual relationship is not a necessary prerequisite to living a fulfilling life. I mean, I'm 30, I'm single after having walked away from a 7 year relationship, and what can I say, I do suffer the frustrations of the human condition, but what the hell, who doesn't. Still I don't see myself "settling down" nor do I see myself starting a family, like, ever. But I also don't see myself going out of my way to catch quick flings, because I don't dig all this "sexual alpha male" hogwash. I've tried that, too. It was boring.

Just because you did it the way you did doesn't mean that's the best way nor does it mean other people have somehow "failed" at life should they have chosen something else. But as I said before, this all looks like some serious overcompensating to me. It comes across like "Yeah, I've lived the life, right!.....right?" That's the vibe I'm getting, you can tell me I'm wrong all you want, but you're simply not convincing me.

 

[Substitute Troll]

I tend to think of it like this:

The "friendzone" mostly only exists for gamers or nerds in general. Or, atleast, they're the ones that whine about it the most.

I think the reason is because of the higher amount of male gamers/nerds that tend to associate themselves as such openly. Most male gamers know very few girls who can classify themselves as "gamers" to the same extent as themselves. And even fewer that the male gamer finds instantly compatible Thus, seeing the "best possible partner", the male gamer will instantly go bonkers-horny for said female. Only because she is attractive and likes what he likes, ignoring all other factors that decides if two people can like eachother. Now, because the female gamer has more options due to having a larger pool of male gamers to choose from, the chance that she has the same feelings is slimmer. Meaning, more guys end up in the friendzone simply because of numbers.

This is very easy to observe. Pick any group of friends that associate themselves as "gamers" or "nerds", the amount of males in the group will most likely outnumber the females, and ask around. You will probably find out that a couple of the male gamers/nerds have a crush on one of the girls. In some cases, there is only one girl in the group. The guys will then have crushes on the same girl. Because that's the only girl in their social circle.

You need an example? This is a real life one, no names for privacy: There's school with 3 different programmes. 2 of these are very close, and hang out with eachother a lot. In one of these 2 programmes, there are no girls. In the other one, there are 4, although 2 of them stay away from the rest. Out of the other 2, one is already with someone else. This leaves one girl between the two programmes who is A: availabe, B: attractive, and C: shares interests with most of the guys. As I soon found out, A LOT of the guys had a crush on this one girl. The girl however, liked none of them, because she has a larger pool of applicable males to choose from. This means the amount of friendzoned guys in this group is much larger than the amount of friendzoned girls. Extrapolate to the entire gaming community and you have your answer.