erttheking said:
Uh, they're three games in a world made up of tens of thousands of games. And two of them are stuck in the same genre. Guild Wars 2 isn't even that popular, it only sold 3.5 million copies, which hardly makes it a heavy hitter that can show the opinions of everyone in gaming. And it's probably telling the WoW is slowly losing steam, so it's hardly the king of games that it once was, because people are getting bored and moving on from it. Hell if we're going by sheer numbers we should be taking the mobile market into account. Me pointing out the flaws in your argument is not moving the goalposts. And don't talk about moving the goalposts when I started talking about characters in general and you shifted it to customizable characters only. Your evidence is flimsy at best, especially Skyrim where the only argument you really have is "there are a lot of sexy mods". At least Guild Wars and WoW had numbers (That you didn't cite) Skyrim doesn't even have that, it has circumstantial evidence at best. Yeah pretty much. As it turns out, proving a demand for something exists is infinitely easier than proving that it's superior to all other demands. Because opinions tend to vary from genre to genre and you only included the opinions of MMO players, yet for some reason you kept pulling the "most gamers" card. I don't count Skyrim because of how insubstantial your claims were there.
Your attempts to dismiss my evidence just get more and more inane and absurd. By all means, keep moving the goalposts so that you never have to admit that most gamers don't want to play as fat characters. You're just making yourself look desperate and pathetic. I'm not trying to argue that one demand is "superior" than another. I'm trying to prove most gamers don't want to play as a fat character, given the chance.
erttheking said:
Could've said the same for you. Deductive reasoning usually requires a lot more solid evidence to go on. "This website has a lot of sexy mods" and "most Skyrim players have sexy characters" aren't really connected provided every single Skyrim player uses that website and downloads the mods out of mandate. And what about female gamers?
Did I say that they didn't? I'm simply pointing out that you can't take the results from a game that's really lost a good chunk of steam over the years and apply it to ALL of gaming.
Oh? The mere existence of a mod proves nothing? Glad we came to an understanding. So the existence of sexy mods prove nothing. (Pick one or the other. Either mods prove a demand for something or they don't, you can't have it both ways)
You seem to believe that unless there's a game that every single gamer plays, and every single one of those gamers does not create a fat character, given the option, then it isn't "solid evidence".
THAT is why I think you're moving the goalposts. No such game exists or ever will exist. You're setting your standards impossibly high to dismiss all evidence that most gamers do not want to play fat characters.
I wasn't talking about mods themselves. I was talking about which mods are the most popular and downloaded, something that nexusmods.com does keep track of. Have you even visited that site? If you haven't, let me give you some numbers:
The third most popular overall mod from that site (yes, overall, not just from the "sexy female characters" category) is a mod called Caliente's Beautiful Bodies Edition, and from the name, I think it's pretty obvious what it does. It currently has about 7.5 million downloads. On the other hand, the most popular fat mod I could find on the site only had about 22,000 downloads. So, there's your hard numbers once again. Let's see how you dismiss these...
erttheking said:
You know, I don't recall specifically making any arguments about character customization and more about characters in general, not sure why you keep bringing it back to that. And yes, that's what I'm trying to say, specific games have specific audiences, MMOs have their own and those audiences don't speak for all of gaming.
Still seems pretty arbitrary. I mean just because I never went out of my way to customize a black character doesn't mean I wouldn't want to play a game with a black character as a main character.
Like I said above. Just because a person doesn't go out of their way to create a character that doesn't look a certain way, doesn't mean that they would refuse to play a game with a character like that. And question, how many players actually put that much time into customization? I would think a good chunk of them would either randomize their character or go with a default. Hell, most of the time my customization is limited to getting a hairdo and eye color I like.
Now you're indulging in wishful thinking. If most players don't create fat characters, even when given the chance, it seems perfectly logical to me to conclude that most players don't want to play as a fat character. Do you really think that there are so many closeted chubby chasers among gamers just waiting to come out? If so, do you have any evidence for that?
erttheking said:
Hard numbers about WoW and Guild Wars II. Not all gamers. And you keep making claims about "most gamers" despite WoW's fanbase not even making up 10% of gamers, and not sharing the same tastes as all gamers. Because of the constant demand for them that seems to be loud enough to get forums like this one into a frenzy every time it gets brought up? Certainly seems like there's a rather significant demand for it. Question. How many games actually ALLOW you to make fat women? I've played quite a few games where you can customize. Only ever saw it in the Souls series and Dragon's Dogma. Hell, most games don't even let you make muscular women.
Again, it's the "opinion poll" analogy I made earlier. Extrapolations are made all the time about a general population, and often based on sample sizes far smaller than 10% of that population. If that is considered a valid and legitimate method to gauge public opinion, I don't see why the same principle can't apply to gamers. Of course games have different audiences, but real-world political ideals also have their own audiences, yet those polls are considered valid all the same.
erttheking said:
I said she looks like she's anorexic, not that she's got the condition. Read what I say. No, I'm not against being corrected, I'm against people being dismisses without base. So if you want to correct me, give me a reason why I'm wrong and don't just say I'm wrong.
Yeah see? Your argument there was "No" and all you had to offer was personal experience. I offered my personal experiences too, how does that make me wrong and you right? And tell me, where those people that you knew IRL supposed to be brawlers, ninjas, mountain climbers, police officers, and soldiers? You know why they look anorexic to me? Because they are way too thin for the jobs they're supposed to be doing, it makes them look unhealthy and unreal. And no, I've run Akali by a female friend in the past, and she also agreed that she looked unhealthily thin. You know, you just kinda declared that without much backing it up.
"Looks like she's anorexic" = "she's anorexic". Period. Keep twisting yourself into logical knots, though.
Whether someone is "anorexic" or not has no bearing on their occupation. A person is either anorexic, or they aren't.
I find it utterly hilarious that you're complaining those characters look "unhealthy", while also demanding more fat characters.
erttheking said:
Considering that a good chunk of these games are single player, I find it questionable that you knew that. Sounds like you're going back to MMOs again, and as I've said many times before, MMOs don't represent gamers as a whole. They represent gamers who like MMOs. Simple. When you make those assumptions, you don't speak for ALL gamers. Say "This type of character is popular among gamers" not it's popular among most gamers" because you can't prove that and it makes it look like you're projecting your views onto gaming as a whole.
The reason I use MMOs is they're more likely to have multiple playable races (and thus more likely to have one that's a bit on the chubby side), and the developers are more likely to release information about what their player base choose to create. Yes, despite your repeated attempts to dismiss any evidence I bring up, I'm specifically using MMOs because they're the most solid evidence regarding this subject.
