Feminist Frequency needs a fact check?

[MrMan999]

All lego body parts are completely interchangeable.
If you don't have enough female lego characters you simply haven't bought enough female heads.

Spoiler: Lego Belville minifigs

Spoiler: Lego Friends minifigs

2 series specifically targeted at girls. Not the only ones either.

I'm not of the belief that targeting a product to a specific audience is sexism in itself.

Did you watch the videos? The disparity in current marketing, compared to the original marketing of Lego products, is pretty striking and far from accidental incidental.

I watched some of them, there's a LOT.

Lego have always had variations on their product aimed at different audiences, Bionicle, Lego Techinic etc. You don't have{/i] to buy them. And all audiences are still catered to within the core lego brand.
Arn't they?

I linked both the lego related videos in a post on the first page. Lego has existed for the better part of 60 years, but male and female exclusive advertising has only been present in the last 25-30.

EDIT: Here's a comparison:


vs


and

Point Taken. Although If I may unleash my inner Lego fanboy for a sec, That crane looks fucking awesome.

 

[MrMan999]

I linked both the lego related videos in a post on the first page. Lego has existed for the better part of 60 years, but male and female exclusive advertising has only been present in the last 25-30.

Those are the ones I watched.
And isn't that the case for pretty much every toy that's existed in the last 25-30 years. It seems unfair to single lego out when it's what the entire toy industry does.
Especially when their product range accounts for all ages and genders, even if their advertising doesn't.

The Option was there yes. But they were the least popular Legos.

So in spite of the fact there's a lack of demand, lego still keep making them.
That doesn't seem very sexist to me.

To be fair, trying to compete with Star Wars anything is a fools errand.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I linked both the lego related videos in a post on the first page. Lego has existed for the better part of 60 years, but male and female exclusive advertising has only been present in the last 25-30.

Those are the ones I watched.
And isn't that the case for pretty much every toy that's existed in the last 25-30 years. It seems unfair to single lego out when it's what the entire toy industry does.
Especially when their product range accounts for all ages and genders, even if their advertising doesn't.

The Option was there yes. But they were the least popular Legos.

So in spite of the fact there's a lack of demand, lego still keep making them.
That doesn't seem very sexist to me.

Lego was used as a microcosm to demonstrate a greater problem. Its hard to encompass the whole industry and still make easily understandable to passive viewers. Lego is both instantly recognisable and very simple in its aesthetic design, which makes the glaring differences between male and female orientated ads more apparent.

But what about this for a kicker. Where the boys ads and the old ad focus on and encourage construction and experimentation and can give way to roleplay, the girls ad is entirely roleplay (construction is a chore to get by, like assembling a desk from Ikea) and the roleplay consists of baking, accessorissing, caretaking and shopping.

Where are the female doctors in non-pink hospitals? Where are the Female firefighters in heartlake city (not to be confused with Lego city, oh god no... thats preposterous).

Girls don't get the same lego experience that boys get, or at least that's what they are been encouraged to see. Despite it being essentially the same product with different pastel palettes, the actual focus of fun between the boy ads and girl ads is entirely different.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of girls who don't want to partake in catering, caretaking, baking and shopping ALL the damn time. If I was to take a wild guess, I'd say that women would also like to have heroic adventures or to fight crime or to go to space.

But nope, the Lego group don't see it that way. Boys want to be out there adventuring, girls want to do girly things... bleh.

Point Taken. Although If I may unleash my inner Lego fanboy for a sec, That crane looks fucking awesome.

It does doesn't it.

I'm pretty sure there are girls who would also like it, but this ad is basically telling that girl its for boys only.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Predictably, it's filled with the same people that think they have a right to tell women what they should care about - clearly, men know better. Or so troglodytes like Rawne1980, Smashlovestitansquest, or Owyn_Merrilin seem to think.

Owyn_Merrilin is, obviously, the worst troglodyte among you lot. Wow.

Holy crap that was the most condescending post I've read in Off-Topic since... a very long time.

Even if your points are correct, no one is going to listen to someone who calls them a Troglodyte (which according to Wikipedia is a small species of Wren [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troglodytes_%28wren%29].) Who knew?

It would also help if you actually addressed the points raised in the video instead of solely attacking the personal respectability of those who oppose you, because even if they are assholes, they could still be right on this issue.

That issue was whether the marketing of the new girl-centric Lego range was sexist, or at least well implemented, when Lego in its component structure is a gender neutral object, and many sets are gender neutral too. How do you get more girls interested in Lego?

Spoiler

 

[Icehearted]

As I understand it feminism is largely sensationalist anyway. American is in a major election year, so naturally that's one of the cards being played to manipulate voters. The so-called "war on women", for example; pretty sure there's not active campaign of warfare (media, psychological, or otherwise) on women or their rights. The gender pay gap is, as I understand it, a myth, and the fight against abortion has existed long before it was legalized.

Some radicals are blowing things out of proportion, and nearly all of the women I know see it exactly as that. Many of them don't even know about most of this nonsense, and even fewer care.

As for the kickstarter shitstorm, she went right for the hornet's nest and it paid off big time. It proves only that there are people willing to draw lines in the sand and insist people take a side, and that others will support that mindset however counterproductive to their own causes doing so actually is.

So much drama over problems that pretty much aren't there to begin with. Pisses me off that game companies will completely compromise to the vocal minority, but then this industry isn't known for having a strong sense of integrity.

 

[MrMan999]

I linked both the lego related videos in a post on the first page. Lego has existed for the better part of 60 years, but male and female exclusive advertising has only been present in the last 25-30.

Those are the ones I watched.
And isn't that the case for pretty much every toy that's existed in the last 25-30 years. It seems unfair to single lego out when it's what the entire toy industry does.
Especially when their product range accounts for all ages and genders, even if their advertising doesn't.

The Option was there yes. But they were the least popular Legos.

So in spite of the fact there's a lack of demand, lego still keep making them.
That doesn't seem very sexist to me.

Lego was used as a microcosm to demonstrate a greater problem. Its hard to encompass the whole industry and still make easily understandable to passive viewers. Lego is both instantly recognisable and very simple in its aesthetic design, which makes the glaring differences between male and female orientated ads more apparent.

But what about this for a kicker. Where the boys ads and the old ad focus on and encourage construction and experimentation and can give way to roleplay, the girls ad is entirely roleplay (construction is a chore to get by, like assembling a desk from Ikea) and the roleplay consists of baking, accessorissing, caretaking and shopping.

Where are the female doctors in non-pink hospitals? Where are the Female firefighters in heartlake city (not to be confused with Lego city, oh god no... thats preposterous).

Girls don't get the same lego experience that boys get, or at least that's what they are been encouraged to see. Despite it being essentially the same product with different pastel palettes, the actual focus of fun between the boy ads and girl ads is entirely different.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of girls who don't want to partake in catering, caretaking, baking and shopping ALL the damn time. If I was to take a wild guess, I'd say that women would also like to have heroic adventures or to fight crime or to go to space.

But nope, the Lego group don't see it that way. Boys want to be out there adventuring, girls want to do girly things... bleh.

Point Taken. Although If I may unleash my inner Lego fanboy for a sec, That crane looks fucking awesome.

It does doesn't it.

I'm pretty sure there are girls who would also like it, but this ad is basically telling that girl its for boys only.

I always hated that Boys=Adventuring and Girls=Home Making thing.

 

[dexxyoto]

Thank you for making this thread. I found myself feeling similar when I looked over her videos. Even in her kickstarter ad she uses characters from the game skullgirls to show the typical look of female videogame characters but in skullgirls the bodyshapes actually range and there is more character development than most games bother to show.

The full effect really does come across that she doesn't do as much research as she really should and if that means i get an annoying label from pettyminded folks so be it.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I'd like to get more into character stuff some day, but as it stands right now, there's only a small handful of studios who produce character designs for their games that don't make me megaeyeroll in one way or another. Part of that may just be me being picky, but another part is because the same shit still gets done over and over.

Just out of curiosity, what games would you say do this right?

Games whose characters don't seem like they were designed by people who have drawn nothing but comic book characters their whole lives. Characters who look like they were adapted to the style and tone of the game, and not slapped on because the artist can only draw that which they deem "totally sweet" at all times. Though that's perfectly right for some games, too.

I think Valve has consistently proven themselves with their games across multiple art styles. I actually think Epic has done a fine job with Gears of War in terms of character designs fitting into the style and tone of the game, same with Halo. Bioshock, Red Dead Redemption are some more, also older ones like King's Quest, Mario in general, and some of your mascot heroes were pretty interesting as well.

 

[Zydrate]

I'm pretty sure there are girls who would also like it, but this ad is basically telling that girl its for boys only.

Point out where it says that. Point out one specific spot where they say it's not for girls.

Because I'd like to counter with:


Yeah...

That commercial makes me cringe.
"You're a women, so you obviously don't drink Dr Pepper."
Fuck you, it's one of my favorites >_<

 

[MrMan999]

I'm pretty sure there are girls who would also like it, but this ad is basically telling that girl its for boys only.

Point out where it says that. Point out one specific spot where they say it's not for girls.

Because I'd like to counter with:


Yeah...

That commercial makes me cringe.
"You're a women, so you obviously don't drink Dr Pepper."
Fuck you, it's one of my favorites >_<

I don't understand how people can like Dr. Pepper. It just tastes like soap to me.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I'm pretty sure there are girls who would also like it, but this ad is basically telling that girl its for boys only.

Point out where it says that. Point out one specific spot where they say it's not for girls.

Because I'd like to counter with:


Yeah...

So, what your telling me is, that subtlety and manipulation are concepts with no real world meaning, since obviously everything has to be specifically stated for it to have an impact? I guess you don't get sarcasm either, since the meaning is not inherent with the language being used.

The male informer, the Male identifier (the kid playing with the toy), the metal soundtrack, the blue background, the liberal use of the words like "powerful" and "mighty".

Next to the Lego Friends ad, with the cool and hip female informer, the female identifier, the pop jingle, the sparkles and all the gender role assignments you could swing a cat at. Oh... and all the god damn pink.

Take note, these ads are aimed at kids, young kids that are impressionable and can only form an understanding of how the world works through experience. They can't derive their own goals, only learn whats expected of them.

Oh, and also, that ad is also detestable, but not relevant to the topic at hand at all.

 

[Smeatza]

Lego was used as a microcosm to demonstrate a greater problem. Its hard to encompass the whole industry and still make easily understandable to passive viewers. Lego is both instantly recognisable and very simple in its aesthetic design, which makes the glaring differences between male and female orientated ads more apparent.

Was it? was it really?
It certainly didn't seem that way to me

But what about this for a kicker. Where the boys ads and the old ad focus on and encourage construction and experimentation and can give way to roleplay, the girls ad is entirely roleplay (construction is a chore to get by, like assembling a desk from Ikea) and the roleplay consists of baking, accessorissing, caretaking and shopping.

Which is again, a problem with gender roles and advertisment (aka. out culture and economy), not specific to lego.

Where are the female doctors in non-pink hospitals? Where are the Female firefighters in heartlake city (not to be confused with Lego city, oh god no... thats preposterous).

Where are the female doctors in non- pink hospitals in Lego Star Wars? where are the female firefighters in the Lego Bionicle series?
No they don't have those things within every single individual set. But you can still get them.

Girls don't get the same lego experience that boys get, or at least that's what they are been encouraged to see. Despite it being essentially the same product with different pastel palettes, the actual focus of fun between the boy ads and girl ads is entirely different.

Whatever experience the end user gets can hardly be entirely controlled by the manufacturer.
In any case they advertise in that way because that is what they believe (and what I suspect they can prove) brings in the most revenue.
The bottom line is there is a demand for these "sexist" adverts and products. And if lego weren't filling that demand then somone else would be.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of girls who don't want to partake in catering, caretaking, baking and shopping ALL the damn time. If I was to take a wild guess, I'd say that women would also like to have heroic adventures or to fight crime or to go to space.

Which they can quite easily do, either through one of the many pre-made female characters lego have created for such things. Or by creating their own female astronaut, miner, whatever.
Every preference is catered to.

But nope, the Lego group don't see it that way. Boys want to be out there adventuring, girls want to do girly things... bleh.

No, the lego marketing department doesn't see it that way. Just like every other marketing department on the face of the planet.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

That commercial makes me cringe.
"You're a women, so you obviously don't drink Dr Pepper."
Fuck you, it's one of my favorites >_<

Hey, it's not just Dr Pepper, it's Dr Pepper 10. No women allowed.

Spoiler

I don't see what the fuss is about anyway, Coca Cola master race reporting in.

Dr Pepper is the shit... though its not a Cola. At least here, Dr. Pepper doesn't taste remotely like a cola drink.

 

[Sean951]

So they paygap doesn't exist? Well, tell that to Forbes [http://www.forbes.com/sites/knowledgewharton/2012/06/14/232012/] and this doctor [http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/12/12125187-that-pesky-gender-pay-gap-exists-for-doctors-too?lite].

On the topic of the videos, having not watched them, I can't comment on them, but the characterization of females has tended to bother me, even as a male. Off the top of my head, the only times I can think of a female character that I liked are Joanna Dark in Perfect Dark and Alyx from Half Life 2. I can almost count Jill Valentine, but I never actually played the ones where she was a playable character.

 

[silent-treatment]

I think a lot of people who actually watched the videos are missing the point of the series. She is not trying to attack Lego itself, she is pointing out something that is happening in our society that negatively impacts us as a whole. Lego itself is not sexist. Society is sexist. Very much so, but some people will not believe that it exists unless the person point out the sexism gives an example. So she gives them an example.

This is a great example that ties into a huge form of indoctrination; playtime as a kid. You will notice that the main focus of her videos was not the brand as a whole, but the products that are marketed to kids. Kids are, by their own nature, impressionable. They learn from their environment, and they are smart enough to read between social lines, even if they are not able to put it into words. So this kind of subtle implanting of societal values, is dangerous. I don't know why but that last statement made me think of the EC episode about propaganda games...don't give me that look. EC says some great shit, yeah James is like way pretentious, but THEY (key word) have some great points...

Back on topic, I am not familiar with her videos, these are the first ones I've ever seen, so I might just be looking farther into her argument then she meaning it to be, but I think that she is merely criticizing society by means of the Lego marketing, not so much shiting on Lego itself.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Lego was used as a microcosm to demonstrate a greater problem. Its hard to encompass the whole industry and still make easily understandable to passive viewers. Lego is both instantly recognisable and very simple in its aesthetic design, which makes the glaring differences between male and female orientated ads more apparent.

Was it? was it really?
It certainly didn't seem that way to me

But what about this for a kicker. Where the boys ads and the old ad focus on and encourage construction and experimentation and can give way to roleplay, the girls ad is entirely roleplay (construction is a chore to get by, like assembling a desk from Ikea) and the roleplay consists of baking, accessorissing, caretaking and shopping.

Which is again, a problem with gender roles and advertisment (aka. out culture and economy), not specific to lego.

Where are the female doctors in non-pink hospitals? Where are the Female firefighters in heartlake city (not to be confused with Lego city, oh god no... thats preposterous).

Where are the female doctors in non- pink hospitals in Lego Star Wars? where are the female firefighters in the Lego Bionicle series?
No they don't have those things within every single individual set. But you can still get them.

Girls don't get the same lego experience that boys get, or at least that's what they are been encouraged to see. Despite it being essentially the same product with different pastel palettes, the actual focus of fun between the boy ads and girl ads is entirely different.

Whatever experience the end user gets can hardly be entirely controlled by the manufacturer.
In any case they advertise in that way because that is what they believe (and what I suspect they can prove) brings in the most revenue.
The bottom line is there is a demand for these "sexist" adverts and products. And if lego weren't filling that demand then somone else would be.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of girls who don't want to partake in catering, caretaking, baking and shopping ALL the damn time. If I was to take a wild guess, I'd say that women would also like to have heroic adventures or to fight crime or to go to space.

Which they can quite easily do, either through one of the many pre-made female characters lego have created for such things. Or by creating their own female astronaut, miner, whatever.
Every preference is catered to.

But nope, the Lego group don't see it that way. Boys want to be out there adventuring, girls want to do girly things... bleh.

No, the lego marketing department doesn't see it that way. Just like every other marketing department on the face of the planet.

*So how did it seem to you?

*Oh wait so you admit that there is an issue with advertisement and gender roles, but you don't see how lego embodies all of these problems and makes for an excellent example of many of the toy industries problems, without sweeping generalisations and pedantic criticisms. Especially considering how long its been around. 60 years of history makes Lego a prime subject for this case. Ergo its not specifically lego, but lego makes the best case.

*Star Wars are separate ethos to lego or lego city. Star Wars is also a series that doesn't have a very good representation of women... somehow I think the transition to movie licences is one of the biggest contributors the issue lego has brought on itself. I honestly think your just trying to be obtuse about this.

*The END-USER for lego are KIDS. You know, those soft, pudgy impressionable creatures who don't create an identity for themselves until they are in their mid-teens, but rely on emulation and encouragement to understand their ROLE in life. These ads pander to gender roles and exclusion of individuals based on their genitals.

*Yes they can do, if they weren't essentially being told that the pinks ones are for them and the blue ones are for boys.

*So what has that ad got to do with anything? Do you think a women who watched that ad for Dr.Pepper TEN, felt like they were being included as part of the targeted demographic? Even if that ad was trying to be Ironic, it failed at making the product seem open to either gender (guys are knuckle dragging, insecure, dumbasses while women wouldn't like this product anyway).

 

[Ragsnstitches]

The male informer, the Male identifier (the kid playing with the toy), the metal soundtrack, the blue background, the liberal use of the words like "powerful" and "mighty".

Are you saying girls can't like metal, the color blue, or thoughts of being powerful and mighty? Now who's assigning gender roles to whom..

Hahaha no... Im not, but those ads are.

 

[DarthSka]

My girlfriend has shown me a good number of her videos. My opinion on each is usually one of the following:
-That's a really good point. That should change in some way.
-Eh, much ado about nothing.

In the case of LEGOS, it falls to the latter. I never really cared that some things are marketed towards opposite genders. So what? As politically incorrect as it might be to say these days, some things boys will tend to like more, and some things girls will tend to like more. Of course, nothing's really stopping each child from choosing the LEGO set they want except for themselves or their parents. Hell, my older sister and I played with LEGOs together many times with sets that would be considered male-oriented. Did it matter to her? No, she had fun with it. Did I ever get trapped into Barbie play with her and her female friends? Yeah, and it wasn't that bad really.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Ah, I see the people crying about feminist frequency, because she dares to go against the party line and MILDLY criticize a few things, need to make yet another emo thread about it.

Predictably, it's filled with the same people that think they have a right to tell women what they should care about - clearly, men know better. Or so troglodytes like Rawne1980, Smashlovestitansquest, or Owyn_Merrilin seem to think.

Owyn_Merrilin is, obviously, the worst troglodyte among you lot. Wow.

We've got all these legitimate issues that affect women, and what gets them fired up? Some cop giving some candid advice about stranger rape.

This? By far the worst in this thread.

That you seriously can come here and think that rape is not a "legitimate issue" truly says it all. Really: You cannot make feminist frequency's point better for her. You are living proof of how deeply entrenched sexism is. So thanks for posting. You prove her right.

Good work. Spoiler, clownface: Rape, and the dismissal of it, is one of the bigger issues. That's why "slutwalks" got big in the first place. Use brain. That's why you have it. Stop thinking with the shriveled up meat between your legs, its function isn't thinking.

Would you be spewing your "arguments" if the cop had made these comments about children that were raped? No, you wouldn't. Why? Because you'd be a child-rape defending piece of trash.

If I disagree I face being crucified by people jumping to the conclusion I am a women hater which I am most certainly not.

You're not being crucified, you face something called criticism. This happens if you speak in public.

You are crying about being crucified for people saying to you what you say about this youtube person. Your hypocrisy is completely off the charts. You seriously have the audacity to attack a youtube video maker with clueless, trite arguments, and then turn around and whine when people poke holes into your mess?

That's pathetic.

Also, helpful tip: You will not be accused of being a woman hater if you stop dismissing misogynist hate campaigns. You could also stop using misogynist arguments. It'd help a ton

Hey, thanks for not quoting me. Also for missing my point. It's not that rape isn't an issue. It is. It's that they crucified a cop for giving some legitimately good advice: it is a bad idea to go into a bad part of town heavily drunk and wearing revealing clothing in the wee hours of the morning. It makes you vulnerable, which is the key thing that nearly, if not all cases of rape have in common. So what if stranger rape is less common than date rape? It doesn't make what the cop said any less true. Hell, it's true for men, too, it's just that they're more likely to get mugged in that state than raped. And they could have easily started a movement to make the danger of acquaintance rape more widely known, it would not have been a bad thing. What was a bad thing was focusing that campaign around an attempt to reclaim the word "slut," which as I pointed out, is every bit as stupid as trying to reclaim "bastard," especially when it does not mean "woman who likes to have sex" as the people trying to reclaim it kept claiming it meant.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Mmmh, that's interesting. Certainly not the titles I was expecting to hear, which is refreshing.

Thanks, lol. I dunno, I just like things that are awesome and purposeful, without insulting my intelligence. Which can be done in almost any way, if you just put some thought into what you're doing.