Finnish Hearthstone Tournament Changes Policy on Women - Update

[weirdee]

update: http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/3/5867015/international-esports-federation-reverses-gender-segregation-policy

summary: IeSF backpedals hard on event, opens male half up to all participants, still leaves in female half while giving some sort of halfassed excuse to justify not having to remove that portion of their schedule

 

[NoX 9]

Thank god! I was having such a hard time playing against those big tough men in online games. Now us dainty ladies can have our own, classier version of e-sports, where we'll exchange cake recipes and talk about how dreamy Simon Baker is.

 

[weirdee]

so, here's the updated schedule:

I'm sure I don't have to explain how silly this is

what I will note is that a lot of guys in the comments are complaining that the men are being "excluded" from what appears to have almost been shoving somewhere around five women into a box to be ignored during the actual tournament

 

[RazgrizRex]

I think most have missed the cause of this controversy. The IeSF World Championship is held in Baku - the capital of Azerbaijan, an Islamic country.

Last week I watched a volleyball game held in Iran (Poland VS Iran) and there were 12k MEN in the audience - no women, because they aren't allowed.

If Islam doesn't even allow women to be spectators in sporting events I hardly think they would allow them to compete.

 

[Passerby]

so, here's the updated schedule:

I'm sure I don't have to explain how silly this is

what I will note is that a lot of guys in the comments are complaining that the men are being "excluded" from what appears to have almost been shoving somewhere around five women into a box to be ignored during the actual tournament

Would the women who have already signed up for the women-only events be able to switch to the Open ones of the same games, I wonder? The article linked doesn't say. And would they want to?

 

[SecondPrize]

Yeah, it's like all those times in magic tournaments when I saw and played against women never happened. Hearthstone isn't a sport of any type, electronic or otherwise. It's a card game. It is as different from CS:GO as Go Fish is from Football. Nobody holds mixed gender events for card games, because that's fucking stupid. Never mind any of the other events they're holding and whether they should segregate those events, Hearthstone needs to be open to all because there is literally no reason why it shouldn't be.

 

[Sansha]

Yes, promote e-sports as legitimate by being exclusionary and condescending.

This shit is absolutely bananas. Men and women are segregated in professional sports because the genders have significantly physiological differences which, last time I fucking checked, don't affect one's ability to play a virtual card game.

 

[Vrach]

Question, is there a segregation of men and women in chess tournaments?

I'm guessing not and there shouldn't be one here either. This is not a physical challenge and there is no reason for segregation of men and women in e-sports.

That said, if these are qualifications for a tournament that's male only, you can't blame these guys on account of not accepting females (though you can still blame them for standing behind that retarded stance). No point in qualifying for a tournament that doesn't accept females.

 

[shadowmagus]

FYI guys, the only people who consider e-sports an actual sport are the people who play and stand to make a living off of e-sports. For the rest of us, it's called a video game.

Ever consider that just because you have no interest in something, that doesn't mean that other people can't like it? I make absolutely zero dollars off of E-Sports, same as I make off of regular sports, but I enjoy watching soccer and competitive CS:GO just the same. I treat them as equal, no matter what types of skills they require. How about you stop belittling people's interests?

I'll stop belitting e-sports when it stops calling itself "e-sports" and starts calling itself "competitive video games". Otherwise, it's just trying to stroke its own ego.

 

[Excludos]

FYI guys, the only people who consider e-sports an actual sport are the people who play and stand to make a living off of e-sports. For the rest of us, it's called a video game.

Ever consider that just because you have no interest in something, that doesn't mean that other people can't like it? I make absolutely zero dollars off of E-Sports, same as I make off of regular sports, but I enjoy watching soccer and competitive CS:GO just the same. I treat them as equal, no matter what types of skills they require. How about you stop belittling people's interests?

I'll stop belitting e-sports when it stops calling itself "e-sports" and starts calling itself "competitive video games". Otherwise, it's just trying to stroke its own ego.

You don't get what the E in Esports stand for, do you..? I love naysayers like you who have so little to do with their lives that they just run around trying to belittle other peoples interests as dumb because you're not part of it. One of the amazing features of smart people is the ability to understand why others find something interesting or fun, even if you personally don't. Same reason as I completely understand why so many people are obsessed with soccer, even if I personally have zero interest in it. Wouldn't it be silly if I ran around telling people "Its not sports. Its just 22 people fighting over a leather ball, and whoever loses gets to have their fans wreck havoc in the streets with riots. Its a children's game"

 

[EvilRoy]

Question, is there a segregation of men and women in chess tournaments?

I'm guessing not and there shouldn't be one here either. This is not a physical challenge and there is no reason for segregation of men and women in e-sports.

That said, if these are qualifications for a tournament that's male only, you can't blame these guys on account of not accepting females (though you can still blame them for standing behind that retarded stance). No point in qualifying for a tournament that doesn't accept females.

I don't know if it is still like this, but for some time, yes there was. It was basically one way (women only and men+women), but you would think it was two way if you ever looked at the participant names. This was basically because only the best got invited to the noteworthy tournaments, and aside from a couple women (Judith and her sister... can't remember the family name) there were very few women of substantial skill.

Again with old info, back when by competing in a women's tournament you needed to do around 2400 in a pair of tournaments plus ratings at 2300 to get a WGM (women's grand master), vs two 2450 tournaments plus a rating of 2400 to get an IM (international master). So basically the girl only tournaments were treated like an entry level into the actual tournaments where anyone could play.

The connotation probably seems pretty negative here, but at the time at least it made some kind of sense because there was hardly any female interest and male players typically dominated any group both in numbers and skill. Basically, they wanted a sort of 'wading pool' option to let women work their way into the olympic sized pool.

 

[Lightknight]

Wait... so they had both male and female only competitions? I came into this thread thinking something wrong was happening. I don't give two farts from Sunday (or whatever other folksy phrase about not giving a shit) about female only competitions so why would I care about male only competitions? Is it only wrong if it's men only but ok if it's women only? Double standard if you ask me, which you didn't, but I'm saying it anyways.

As long as both groups are properly represented, I couldn't care less. It's only sexist if they only had a male competition but no female competition.

What the title should say is that a Male-only tournament prohibits females from playing in it and vice versa. Which shouldn't matter to anyone.

Now basically they've removed the male-only tournament and now have two tournaments that females can join with only one that males can. Hurray for inequality I guess?

 

[shadowmagus]

FYI guys, the only people who consider e-sports an actual sport are the people who play and stand to make a living off of e-sports. For the rest of us, it's called a video game.

Ever consider that just because you have no interest in something, that doesn't mean that other people can't like it? I make absolutely zero dollars off of E-Sports, same as I make off of regular sports, but I enjoy watching soccer and competitive CS:GO just the same. I treat them as equal, no matter what types of skills they require. How about you stop belittling people's interests?

I'll stop belitting e-sports when it stops calling itself "e-sports" and starts calling itself "competitive video games". Otherwise, it's just trying to stroke its own ego.

You don't get what the E in Esports stand for, do you..? I love naysayers like you who have so little to do with their lives that they just run around trying to belittle other peoples interests as dumb because you're not part of it. One of the amazing features of smart people is the ability to understand why others find something interesting or fun, even if you personally don't. Same reason as I completely understand why so many people are obsessed with soccer, even if I personally have zero interest in it. Wouldn't it be silly if I ran around telling people "Its not sports. Its just 22 people fighting over a leather ball, and whoever loses gets to have their fans wreck havoc in the streets with riots. Its a children's game"

"...so little to do with their lives...", Personal attacks already? tsk tsk. None of my responses have targeted people but "e-sports" as a whole. To answer your questions by the way, "Electronic", and websters defines a "Sport" as "a contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other." Now I'm assuming that the argument to be made is "Well they have to click the mouse and think quickly, that counts as physical activity." and I simply disagree.

 

[Excludos]

FYI guys, the only people who consider e-sports an actual sport are the people who play and stand to make a living off of e-sports. For the rest of us, it's called a video game.

Ever consider that just because you have no interest in something, that doesn't mean that other people can't like it? I make absolutely zero dollars off of E-Sports, same as I make off of regular sports, but I enjoy watching soccer and competitive CS:GO just the same. I treat them as equal, no matter what types of skills they require. How about you stop belittling people's interests?

I'll stop belitting e-sports when it stops calling itself "e-sports" and starts calling itself "competitive video games". Otherwise, it's just trying to stroke its own ego.

You don't get what the E in Esports stand for, do you..? I love naysayers like you who have so little to do with their lives that they just run around trying to belittle other peoples interests as dumb because you're not part of it. One of the amazing features of smart people is the ability to understand why others find something interesting or fun, even if you personally don't. Same reason as I completely understand why so many people are obsessed with soccer, even if I personally have zero interest in it. Wouldn't it be silly if I ran around telling people "Its not sports. Its just 22 people fighting over a leather ball, and whoever loses gets to have their fans wreck havoc in the streets with riots. Its a children's game"

"...so little to do with their lives...", Personal attacks already? tsk tsk. None of my responses have targeted people but "e-sports" as a whole. To answer your questions by the way, "Electronic", and websters defines a "Sport" as "a contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other." Now I'm assuming that the argument to be made is "Well they have to click the mouse and think quickly, that counts as physical activity." and I simply disagree.

When you try to belittle other peoples interests, you are personally attacking them already. You managed to find a definition of sports. great! Now find a definition of Esports while you're at it. There is no physical activity required in esports other than staying in general good health (which is why you see many esports as well as chess players be very well trained. You need to be fit to tackle the stress of traveling everywhere all the time as well as circulating oxygen to your brain better). The ability required to be good is a certain degree of talent, intelligence, dexterity (yes, clicking on that mouse very quickly as well as accurate isn't easy), and you need to work your ass off for upto 14 hours a day for years at the time. You can belittle esports all you want, but the ever increasing amount of fans and viewers every single day means we don't have to deal with people like you who are stuck in the past with their own view of what a sport should and shouldn't be.

 

[Sight Unseen]

Wait... so they had both male and female only competitions? I came into this thread thinking something wrong was happening. I don't give two farts from Sunday (or whatever other folksy phrase about not giving a shit) about female only competitions so why would I care about male only competitions? Is it only wrong if it's men only but ok if it's women only? Double standard if you ask me, which you didn't, but I'm saying it anyways.

As long as both groups are properly represented, I couldn't care less. It's only sexist if they only had a male competition but no female competition.

What the title should say is that a Male-only tournament prohibits females from playing in it and vice versa. Which shouldn't matter to anyone.

Now basically they've removed the male-only tournament and now have two tournaments that females can join with only one that males can. Hurray for inequality I guess?

This is similar to my views on this story. They turned an anti woman policy (segregated events where there were both male and female portions, but females have less events to compete in than males) into an anti male policy (women can compete in any event they choose but men are forced to compete only in the "open" category events) and everyone is praising it as a step in the right direction. This isn't a step in the right direction, it's only shifting the bias from one side to the other. Why can't they just have open events that anyone can compete in? eSports have no reason why women shouldn't be able to compete against the men, other than maybe that the culture isn't quite as welcoming for women. In that case, why not try to improve the culture and encourage women to join?

I've always been annoyed by this double standard of one version of something being open to everyone and one being women only. When I used to play hockey my league was technically supposed to be males only but girls could play in the league with us even though they already had a female only league. It forced the teams to adapt to having a girl ( they had to get a separate dressing room just for the girl, the guys generally went easier on the girls, less physical contact, etc) and the girls were always the WORST players in the league and always dragged the team down. Several of them barely knew how to skate. Why couldn't they have been playing in the girl's league where the competition was generally less anyway instead of dragging down the male only league?

The same double standards also exist in boy scouts, which are now just Scouts, but boys aren't allowed in girl guides (although i don't know why boys would want to join anyway.) There are women only gyms all over the place but no men only gyms, women only trains in some places, etc. I realize that some of these double standards are due to societal problems and some men mistreating/abusing women, but why aren't we trying to fix this issue as a society instead of simply lumping all men in the same scumbag/rapist boat and enforcing one-way segregation?

 

[conmag9]

And the reason they don't just drop the segregation entirely and make all of them open to everyone is...?

I mean, this is ridiculous. And dropping male only competitions and keeping female-only ones is actually WORSE discrimination, since at least before the stupidity was spread evenly. This is a double standard, and while I'm uncomfortable with physical sports and segregation, at least there's some sort of logic behind it. Here? Nothing. Just...why is that so difficult to understand?

And in the previous form, when they wanted to segregate to look like a "real sport"? That just pathetic. Mimicking the bad habits of something in a genre does not (or at least should not) make your more legitimate. Let your point (ie. legitimacy) stand on its own.

 

[Sight Unseen]

And the reason they don't just drop the segregation entirely and make all of them open to everyone is...?

I mean, this is ridiculous. And dropping male only competitions and keeping female-only ones is actually WORSE discrimination, since at least before the stupidity was spread evenly. This is a double standard, and while I'm uncomfortable with physical sports and segregation, at least there's some sort of logic behind it. Here? Nothing. Just...why is that so difficult to understand?

And in the previous form, when they wanted to segregate to look like a "real sport"? That just pathetic. Mimicking the bad habits of something in a genre does not (or at least should not) make your more legitimate. Let your point (ie. legitimacy) stand on its own.

The only reason I can think of is that maybe the pro-gaming circuit isn't exactly welcoming to girls. Maybe there's an environment of being male only that either actively or passively discourages women from wanting to compete in the male-dominated league. I don't think it has anything to do with skill potential or actual gender differences, moreso just the culture. It's still fucking stupid and a lazy way out though...

 

[geizr]

In e-sports, the need to separate male and female tournaments and teams is an artifice of limited, in-the-box thinking, in my opinion. There is no need to make such separations as males and females can demonstrate equal ability in a video game, going so far as having mixed-gender teams, even. Plenty of women play FPSes and MOBAs and are damn, fucking good at them! I've played with and against them. About the only difference that I've noticed is that female players don't tend to act like jerks in the game.

 

[ryukage_sama]

I'm glad they're resolving this issue. They realized very quickly that their model was dysfunctional and reformed it.

It's to good to see that competitive video games will have a chance to advance beyond the insular echo chamber that so many sports have become. I still don't see competitive gaming as a sport in the way that basketball or golf is. Its closer to chess, poker, or heck, Magic the Gathering. We don't consider those to be sports, but nor should we consider them to be inferior. We should learn to respect games for their own value, not for how they resemble the NFL or MLB. Let video games play to their own strengths.