runic knight said:
I'll admit first off I was a bit harsh in my initial statement. Having spent an hour and a half essentially beating my head against a wall arguing over the same point there as here (reactionary impulse response just to avoid being part of the "bad" side), I did vent a little more on you then I should. I'm sorry for that, though I do stand by my rational, if not so much on my condemnation of you for your stance. So I guess, I am sorry for swinging with a hammer when I shoulda used a rolled up newspaper...
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Now yours was more interpreted from what you said about how the reaction of one side prompted you into support of the other. This suggested that you tied the opposition to her together, regardless of differentiation between assholes and people with valid complaints. Simply put, it sounded like you couldn't differentiate between them, using the assholes as reason to support her. That was were I derived the stances from, not an attempt to gain victim status, merely to point out a failed justification.
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Now, I explained the logical steps of how I came to the conclusion on your stance, so it is a little unfair to call it a jump. Incomplete or incorrect perhaps, but not a leap of logic but a train of thought.
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[taken from the end and repositioned]
I may have been wrong, but I based it off what you gave and showed how it was wrong and the implications of what you said. My argument was valid, which is all I can hope for. Wither or not it was correct is a different part of things. Surely, though I may have been mistaken, you can see how the conclusions drawn were based in a rational train of thought.
Again, I merely explain the implications of what you said. An expression of siding with one over the other because of what a portion of one group did offended you, well, such a stance has flaws. And they have conclusions, such as implications the asshats represent the whole and that you are either with or against the asshats (who, as representing the whole, the entirety of one side would be asshats.) When switching ou the word asshat for sexist, you can come to the conclusion of one side being sexist and the other not.
I hate it when people apologise to me online. All my hot air just leaks out and leaves me feeling empty. It makes me feel like a real arsehole. But I deserve that. I?m sorry to.
Actually this [aside, skip paragraph if you like] isn?t the first time this has happened today. Another youtuber said he was sorry for saying I had drunk all the koolaid. I accepted but...um... I still don?t know what that means. I know koolaid is an American soft drink, but is he saying it contains alcohol? Was he saying the source of my ?stupid? views was because I was drunk? If he was... yeah he?s got a handle on me there.
Your rational was fine. From your POV I was essentially doing anti-conformity-conformity (or something like that) and I?ve called out that shit myself in the past. That?s an oversimplification of what it may?ve looked like I was doing, but it was something along those lines and even though there was more to it, who gives a toss now anyway? I wasn?t in the mood to write a long post... bugger.
But it was never a knee-jerk thing. I?d already arrived at some such conclusion and it was more a bitter middle finger to the undesirable elements. I had a feeling something like this flash game would show up. I know that the internet is a place where the stars don?t shine. Fuck. Count the days until there?s a rape variant.
runic knight said:
Now, anita has used the response on her vids as justification for them and condemnation on games. A quote from her vid description itself
The trolls only managed to prove to everyone that sexism in gaming is indeed a huge problem.
is just one of several examples. And an example of the entirely flawed logical process I railed against.
As for something larger, I don't know. That is part of the complaint I have with the way she does lump everything into camps and seems to spur on the trolls. In doing so, you can't tell the real fire from the smoke and anything derived from it will be questionable and nearly worthless.
Now if her vid wasn't spammed all over 4chan, if she was a previously known unbiased personality presenting this and if the gaming community looked at her like an actual journalist before she posted this and then it got this sort of hate then you'd have a lot better case. But that isn't what was. I can not in good conscious look at what happened as a sign of the gaming community in any real degree. Actually, no, there is one thing i can draw from this, and that is a positive. The gaming community (as well as non gamers who watched the vid and donated) went above and beyond the call of duty in supporting her in spite of the trolls. I could point to that as a counterpoint to the trolls as showing gamers supporting her ideal in the same light you would as a sign of a greater problem.
Not quite a condemnation of games, but I genuinely believe the response is actually fair justification for her. But then again without the response it would still be totally cool to go ahead anyway. I?m convinced there is *something* wrong, and it deserves to be explored, and I think she?s both the best and worst person to do it. I don?t exactly know what is wrong though. By that I mean, in a chin-stroking ?what-does-it-all-mean? kind of way. I feel like I?m scratching a fresh scab and picking just makes things harder to see for the blood.
As for spurring on the trolls, I?m still convinced this is a side-effect of her videos simply existing. Like I said, there was no way this wouldn?t be controversial. Looking at the political landscape of both the USA and the UK and the sweltering anti-feminist vibe (justified or not) therein, I get the impression not much baiting on her part would really be needed. That might well be a jump on my part, or perhaps me just reflecting the frankly scary attitudes of the city I live in, but I don?t think it?s unreasonable.
And this is something that?s played on my mind for years and despite my disillusionment and consequent rejection of feminism a few years ago, it never really left me. (By the way, this outrage didn?t really inspire my defection back to feminism. A lot of things did.) It?s still to hot to handle for now though. But I know enough to know I don?t like any of it. Not, one, bit.
But as for taking a positive from the fact that she was (indeed) supported despite the trolls... hmm. I never had you pegged for glass-half-pull kinda person, and there?s a point to be made there for sure. Silver lining and all that. But I just can?t share this view. As far as I?m concerned, not enough has materialised in the positive and too much has come forth in the negative. It?s hopelessly disproportionate, and I?m afraid I?m going to have to accuse you of selective interpretation. I?m sorry. I think I know what you?ll say to that.
runic knight said:
I think backlashes in general are not that wise if they are done for the sake of backlash. Think of it along the lines of hating Justin Beiber because he is famous. Just...sort of dumb to me.
I call it the Joyloath Effect. People love to hate, and there is a truth to the maxim ?there?s no good or bad publicity. Just publicity.? Bob Ezrin knew it all too well and made stars of Alice Cooper and Kiss back in their day. I do hate the effect it has (twilight, Kardashians, Michael Bay, etc) but in the case of Anita, it?s something I?m interested in and thus I don?t care if I inadvertently give her publicity. In fact, I may even like it.
runic knight said:
Again, I have looked at it. I have seen people driven into a frenzy of rage and bile before as well. And what has happened to her is not isolated to her alone. Politicians of both genders have had punch-them games. Countless youtubers have dealt with vile and comment section spam. Again, I can not see this as more then it is: Bile and hate stirred and spurred by 4chan trolls propagated by her own baiting of said trolls.
Vicious treatment of politicians and celebrities does not excuse it. And I mean that, even for politicians. I was going to talk about wealth and a position of prestige being a nice benefit that youtubers don?t have, but looking at the donation and massive soapbox with which she has been provided, I doubt that point holds much water. But what does hold water is that she doesn?t have one tenth the influence and 0% political power and consequently influence in peoples lives, so the comparison still falls apart. She?s not a politician, she?s a critic.
Other youtubers and cultural critics have had to deal with it to but I can?t think of the last time someone has tackled a subject like this and received the hostility of this magnitude. As for the baiting, it?s still a grey area for me as evidence is sparse and deeply questionable.
runic knight said:
Being that many people mention the main reason she got so much response is because within minutes of releasing the vid, it was spammed over 4chan, not being aware of it's importance in this mess suggests less of an understanding then you were claiming.
It?s too bad they reacted in the way they did. Too bad indeed. Even if she or someone in her staff did orchestrate this whole affair, had they not, the vilest of the internet would?ve caught wind of a big project (to which donations had been so generous) like this sooner or later and the backlash might?ve been more drawn out and less acute but still there. I?m not sure we?ll ever know for sure and my theories are nought but speculation. What if it really wasn?t her fault? What if the response was bigger than 4chan?
runic knight said:
As for her own hand in spamming it, that has been questioned, though I will see if I can't find the gathered evidence about it so far that someone had posted. She has used the response though, spinning it into justifications, egging on the trolls in some cases and, of course, taking money way above and beyond the asked for amount to the point of ridiculousness. As for why it is important, it is because it is the flash mob of the internet. suddenly, trolls everywhere. It got attention and people, seeing the trolling, follow suit. And there was also the confrontation and battles with them in the comment section that spurred more asshattery. I wont say they were all just trolls, but I will say that things would have been much different and no where near as horrid if her vids weren't spammed over the asshole of the net. More likely then not it would have reached the usual audience, then faded away, not really acknowledged. There is indeed motive in making controversy.
Sort of linked to what I said above, but I must admit, if we can get evidence as to what extent her and hers played it would raise an eyebrow for me. Perhaps in the same way rock stars like Marilyn Manson (I?m showing my age) would ride the waves of nonsense controversy on the backs of religious extremists, Anita might well have done the same thing? PR amongst the internet would be much easier. But she has released a lot of videos and been around for over a year. I don?t know how well known she was prior to this because like so many people I?ve been sucked into the controversy and only learned from there.
Have I fallen for the same nefarious scheme? Maybe. But I?m just not convinced, and there is a feeling that theorizing that she or hers has some hand in orchestrating seems faintly cynical, as well as grounds for accusation of conformity bias in a cart-before-the-horse sort of way. I?ve seen the ?posts? she made on 4chan. Are we really giving them much weight? Like we?ve said, they?re trolls. They troll each other.
runic knight said:
Now, I don't think they should be ignored, that is not what I am saying. I just think they should not be made out to be something they are not. And representatives of gamers as a community is something they are not. Anita's "crime" to me is her dishonest representation of gamers, games as a medium in general, and her lack of credibility. I am not so blind to not know the community has problems, in many areas, but I find her and the way she goes about the task of addressing the problem she sees as a horrible example of what not to do. I likened the problems with games as similar to all media and all story-telling mediums. I've compared sexism as a symptom of this larger problem and her... preference... of attacking it the same as someone being told to take a cough suppressant when coughing because of lung cancer. It masks the problem but doesn't fix it. And in masking it, it can make it worse in the long run.
Pro-castration dykes represent feminism. Crazed communists represent the labour movement. Sneering, racist skinheads represent football. Moronic wankers represent heavy metal fans. Misogynistic suicide bombers represent Islam. Depraved and angry depressives represent atheism. And bible thumping, incestuous, Republican voting gun owners represent the USA. Sadly all things are defined by their worst members.
And mouth breathing, frighteningly backward, cretinous virgins represent gamers. This is far, far bigger than just some amateur cultural critic on youtube who got a disproportionate amount of cash and support. She can?t be blamed for this, and however much blame we want to (or can) lay at her feet as responsibility for negative perpetuation is vague. Maybe she has helped it along? Maybe this whole thing is blown out of proportion by a few nutters? Maybe she?s held up a mirror and we hate what we see? I don?t know.
As for the message, I?ll take what I can get. I want to show the world that this idea of gamers is wrong. All these stereotypes must be challenged. As for cough syrup... I agree... but until they find a cure for ?lung cancer?...
runic knight said:
If we are to look at ourselves a community and games as a whole, we need to look at it from different perceptive then her biased ideals of sexism in everything. As it is, she is becoming the boy who cried wolf and the publicity she has now will tire of her as they hear the claims of sexism and go "not again" with a groan.
Do we? Maybe we could use this harsh criticism? We already know our own perspective of ourselves and that of the media. Are you so confident that she?s completely biased and thus all views worthless? Why not take something from a (at worst) ?crazed feminist?? If we don?t learn something about ourselves, we?ll certainly learn something from a dissenter.
runic knight said:
I don't blame people for donating. I blame them for donating because they see a bunch of trolls posting bile on her channel. But that is my personal distaste behavior motivated like that. Seems far too similar to the mentality that allow dictators to cease power after a false flag operation. A lazy uniformed response guided by spite or fear or disgust. Though, in a sense, some would say that this is what this was.
I think I?ve covered this elsewhere.
Sorry I had to chop things up. I don?t think I took anything out of context.
