"For privacy, Origin is the same as Steam" WRONG!!! -Updated

[SoldierC4]

Again what is this other software that collects as many details about your software setup as Origin does, as a mandatory part of using that software. Please list them with evidence for your assertions.

And no I don't have Origin installed and won't use it while it works the way it does.

And no, it is not a pointless thread as people still are unable to grasp the basic concept that Origin is not the same as Steam for taking data. Yes 'taking', as I don't want them to have it but they did anyway. As long as people thing the two are the same from a privacy point of view, this thread is needed....

No, this thread is not. You keep saying Steam and Origin are different, they gather very similar sets of data on your computer, the ONLY difference is that Steam has an option to opt-out of their hardware and software data poll while still using their software and Origin does not. This is a given fact, there is no "opinion" to argue in this thread. The only thing that you can argue is whether or not data collection like this on a whole is ok, which has been done to death on countless other threads.

Everyone knows this, and everyone is capable of grasping this concept. You seem to think that Origin's ability to do this makes it special though. You said "Yes 'taking', as I don't want them to have it but they did anyway" Is completely false, you MUST AGREE TO THE EULA that both Steam and Origin have, the EULA is what you agree to that gives them the ability to start data collection, the only difference is once you've accepted the EULA, in Steam you may choose not to have hardware and software data collected by personally finding the option not to. You still have the option to in Origin, it's called the uninstall button.

Basically, if you installed Steam or Origin, you agreed to initially allow data collection by accepting it.

Most other programs allow the ability to opt out of data collection, yes, very few people do this though. Since your standard company isn't stupid enough to start stealing personal files and information, and neither is EA. It's demographic polling, they just want to be able to see what their user base is using and doing so they can try to provide things that will make customer want to come back to them, this is the reason any company does this.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I probably should have weighed in on this earlier, since I was the one posting about how Steam does the same thing a few months back, but here it is: Steam does the same thing, and the only way you have a case here is if you actually refuse to participate in the steam hardware survey. The vast majority of Steam users, including the ones who were complaining about Origin, participate in that survey. What's more, my point was not that Origin was magically good, but that Steam is actually just as bad. Congratulations for realizing that the origin EULA is bs, but you lose points for missing the fact that they /all/ are bs, not to mention only "legal" on the technicality that the judges who ruled them so are apparently confused by the fact that it's digital; this was tried with both books and records about a century ago, and it was ruled illegal in both cases. Literally the only difference is the fact that this is a new technology, and the judges are old coots.

Steam doesn't rifle through German tax returns!

The EULA for Origin was different in Germany due to some weird loophole in German law; that picture never applied to anywhere but Germany.

Edit: also, are we sure Lexmark is a tax return program in the first place? I used to have a Lexmark printer, that could easily be a driver package -- you know, hardware information?

Nevermind, it's Lexware, not Lexmark. I could have sworn someone called it Lexmark in this thread, though.

 

[Snotnarok]

What are they going to 'take' from your PC? Your gaming preferences and your hardware specs? So they can make games tailored to what people are playing?

 

[ph0b0s123]

Again what is this other software that collects as many details about your software setup as Origin does, as a mandatory part of using that software. Please list them with evidence for your assertions.

And no I don't have Origin installed and won't use it while it works the way it does.

And no, it is not a pointless thread as people still are unable to grasp the basic concept that Origin is not the same as Steam for taking data. Yes 'taking', as I don't want them to have it but they did anyway. As long as people thing the two are the same from a privacy point of view, this thread is needed....

No, this thread is not. You keep saying Steam and Origin are different, they gather very similar sets of data on your computer, the ONLY difference is that Steam has an option to opt-out of their hardware and software data poll while still using their software and Origin does not. This is a given fact, there is no "opinion" to argue in this thread. The only thing that you can argue is whether or not data collection like this on a whole is ok, which has been done to death on countless other threads.

Everyone knows this, and everyone is capable of grasping this concept. You seem to think that Origin's ability to do this makes it special though. You said "Yes 'taking', as I don't want them to have it but they did anyway" Is completely false, you MUST AGREE TO THE EULA that both Steam and Origin have, the EULA is what you agree to that gives them the ability to start data collection, the only difference is once you've accepted the EULA, in Steam you may choose not to have hardware and software data collected by personally finding the option not to. You still have the option to in Origin, it's called the uninstall button.

Basically, if you installed Steam or Origin, you agreed to initially allow data collection by accepting it.

Most other programs allow the ability to opt out of data collection, yes, very few people do this though. Since your standard company isn't stupid enough to start stealing personal files and information, and neither is EA. It's demographic polling, they just want to be able to see what their user base is using and doing so they can try to provide things that will make customer want to come back to them, this is the reason any company does this.

You said it yourself, they are different in that, in one the collected software data being sent back to EA is mandatory and one the other that data being sent back is optional. And no not everybody gets that as if you just look on this page, people believe that the way Steam and Origin collect data and send it back to EA or Valve is the same. This thread is to dispel this misconception.

 

[MidnightSt]

Someone, please, tell me what the WORST CASE SCENARIO could possibly be if EA found out my Hardware and Software data?

they snoop around, find any illegal software you have, find that you have torrent client installed, some illegal music, take that to court and sue you for copyright infrigement and piracy. 1000$ fine for one song i think it was?

 

[00slash00]

honestly, origin doesnt bother me that much. maybe it should but i only use my desktop for gaming and auto cad, so i dont really see why i should care all that much if theyre going to look at my computer. i have one or two programs that i torrented a while ago but unless theyre going to report me for that, i dont see the hurt in letting them look around my system. maybe im being ignorant to anyone can feel free to correct me. heres what DOES matter to me. i enjoy playing the old republic and i want to play mass effect 3. would i prefer to not play games on origin? sure. but i would also prefer to not play games on steam. what matters to me is whether a game is fun

 

[ph0b0s123]

What are they going to 'take' from your PC? Your gaming preferences and your hardware specs? So they can make games tailored to what people are playing?

No, the precedent this opens is that companies can data mine anything contained on your system for whatever reason they like as a stipulation of using their software.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Again what is this other software that collects as many details about your software setup as Origin does, as a mandatory part of using that software. Please list them with evidence for your assertions.

And no I don't have Origin installed and won't use it while it works the way it does.

And no, it is not a pointless thread as people still are unable to grasp the basic concept that Origin is not the same as Steam for taking data. Yes 'taking', as I don't want them to have it but they did anyway. As long as people thing the two are the same from a privacy point of view, this thread is needed....

No, this thread is not. You keep saying Steam and Origin are different, they gather very similar sets of data on your computer, the ONLY difference is that Steam has an option to opt-out of their hardware and software data poll while still using their software and Origin does not. This is a given fact, there is no "opinion" to argue in this thread. The only thing that you can argue is whether or not data collection like this on a whole is ok, which has been done to death on countless other threads.

Everyone knows this, and everyone is capable of grasping this concept. You seem to think that Origin's ability to do this makes it special though. You said "Yes 'taking', as I don't want them to have it but they did anyway" Is completely false, you MUST AGREE TO THE EULA that both Steam and Origin have, the EULA is what you agree to that gives them the ability to start data collection, the only difference is once you've accepted the EULA, in Steam you may choose not to have hardware and software data collected by personally finding the option not to. You still have the option to in Origin, it's called the uninstall button.

Basically, if you installed Steam or Origin, you agreed to initially allow data collection by accepting it.

Most other programs allow the ability to opt out of data collection, yes, very few people do this though. Since your standard company isn't stupid enough to start stealing personal files and information, and neither is EA. It's demographic polling, they just want to be able to see what their user base is using and doing so they can try to provide things that will make customer want to come back to them, this is the reason any company does this.

You said it yourself, they are different in that, in one the collected software data being sent back to EA is mandatory and one the other that data being sent back is optional. And no not everybody gets that as if you just look on this page, people believe that the way Steam and Origin collect data and send it back to EA or Valve is the same. This thread is to dispel this misconception.

And? That's the whole point of an EULA. Steam only allows the opt out because Valve wants to avoid this kind of PR. Do you read every EULA you agree to? If not, you might be surprised at all the crap you've agreed to over the years. If so, why are you picking on poor EA when the whole bloody system is evil, and they're just one cog?

Edit: Just saw your post about precedent setting. This is not precedent setting. The precedent was set in a court case back in the 90's. EULAs, look 'em up.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Someone, please, tell me what the WORST CASE SCENARIO could possibly be if EA found out my Hardware and Software data?

WORST CASE?

Apart from your caps lock key failing? Let's just try it then:

First of all, EA reports all of your software to FAST as illegal. "It's a bug that we'll fix in the next iteration".
Secondly, EA uses the Origin EULA to re-justify the intrusion measures it took out of the original. Under their terms, they are allowed to change it back at any time, and unless you regularly check up on their Origin updates page - you are signing up to whatever new contract they want to make a month after they have made that change.
Thirdly, they don't have to allow you access to that page. If you don't/can't check it within that time, then you are legally bound by any conditions they put in it.
Fourthly, all of your MP3s are reported to RIAA as stolen "It's a bug that we'll fix..." This is a legal matter, so it's not covered in reporting to third parties.
Fifthly, all of your Tweets/Bookface updates are taken at face value. That means, say, that "I'm going to kill you" is reported as an incitement to commit murder.
Sixthly, EA install their own software that demands updates at specific times and takes resources from your machine to do them. This is what Apple already does (You may have noticed iTunes wishing to install and push your running programs to the background) - this may also stealth install toolbars and the like - As Apple does with Opera.
Seventhly, all of your EA games stop working. "It's a bug we'll fix with the next iteration as you seem to have been banned from our forums".
Eighthly, backwards compatability of old EA games stop working.
Ninethly, because of the ongoing row with Steam, Origin deliberately interferes with Steam's running and feeds Valve false data.
Tenthly, Origin marks system resources only for its use.
Eleventhly, Origin removes all mods (like the new Mass Effect 3 face changer mod) because it cannot be certain they're compatible.
Twelvethly, Origin alters your browser to be more likely to bring up Electronic Arts software.
Thirteenthly, Origin makes you sit through adverts for new ME games - like "Your Mother Wouldn't Like This Game" or "Sin to Win"
Fourteenthly, EA removes all access to play EA games on Steam.

Now consider that all fourteen cases are allowed within the rights you have now signed on the EULA - and more could be added using the "We reserve the right to update the EULA at any time - If you disagree, you must delete all EA products from your system."

And on Steam - What re-assurance has EA given that if it collapses tomorrow, you'll still be able to play EA games?

Oh, and Fifteen? You can't sue them for any damage they do to your machine due to this.

Edit: Sixteen, LULZsec, or someone else, duplicates Origin's authentication. Now they've access to ALL OF THE DATA.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Sigh. I see a lot of arguments that aren't addressing the details here, or are curiously omitting them. Fine. I'll take a crack at it for all the good it'll do me.

The non-personally identifiable information that EA
collects includes technical and related information that identifies your computer
(including the Internet Protocol Address) and operating system, as well as
information about your Application usage (including but not limited to successful
installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware.

I draw special attention to the bolded and italicized parts.

Legally speaking, these are two separate terms so you cannot equate them or lump them together under the same definition. Both need limiting clauses. They are not just saying "information about your software usage", they are saying "Information about your software usage, AND Information about your software". (among everything else)

I bring this up, because nearly every argument I've seen in this thread treats them as the same term. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

"Software usage" is somewhat nebuluous, but it implies at least access to data they cannot monitor via Origin traffic (you accessing their servers, that is).

But more worrying is the bolded term: Software.
"Software", as defined in the general sense, means EVERYTHING ON YOUR HARD DRIVE, not just executables, or post-compiled applications. A simple text file is software. Mozilla Firefox is software. Windows Shell, is software. Your video driver is software. That digital picture of your secret fursuit or Halloween costume, is software.

Hiding it amidst a sea of other terms and then burying it under "Intentions" is tricky business, but it's still right there in the writing. Remove the other items in the list (which does NOT change the context of the other items here, as the same condition is addressing each term in the same manner) and it reads:

"The non-personally identifiable information that EA collects includes information about your software."

"Information about your software" isn't further defined or restricted. What exactly are they gathering? Timestamps? Names of files? Game saves? Pictures? Non-IDing information within the software/files?
All of these could be interpreted as actions towards their defined intentions, and intentions aren't legally defined limits.

Conditions with vague terms are ripe for exploitation; which is part of why reading legalese is such a colossal pain in the ass, yet it's still rather essential in the case of pre-purchase services (unlike post-purchase EULAs, which cannot ensure that the customer knew about the terms before purchase; Contracts of Adhesion. It's a bit different here, unless you didn't buy a copy of ME3 in retail for PC. Very tricky business, this legal bullshit..).

 

[DrOswald]

For me, this issue is more about trust than EULA's. I like Valve, they have always done right by me. When I have a problem, the response is quick. The make good games, and steam in particular is a great service that has provided me with cheap and high quality entertainment for years. They are in it for themselves, but they have decided that showing the consumer respect is a good business strategy. I like Valve. They have fostered the company/consumer relationship. Valve has shown they are not going to dick me over just because they can.

EA, on the other hand, I dislike for more reasons than I can list, but lets have a go at it anyway. They show no respect for their costumers, they try their best to shove day 1 DLC down my throat, they have advertising campaigns that are often offensive and even more often stupid, their online service is bad, they pioneered they online pass, and the list goes on. I don't like EA. They regularly abuse the company/consumer relationship. I have no doubt that EA would throw me under a bus if it meant an extra $60 and they could get away with it.

 

[DoPo]

Sigh. I see a lot of arguments that aren't addressing the details here, or are curiously omitting them. Fine. I'll take a crack at it for all the good it'll do me.

The non-personally identifiable information that EA
collects includes technical and related information that identifies your computer
(including the Internet Protocol Address) and operating system, as well as
information about your Application usage (including but not limited to successful
installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware.

I draw special attention to the bolded and italicized parts.

Legally speaking, these are two separate terms so you cannot equate them or lump them together under the same definition. Both need limiting clauses. They are not just saying "information about your software usage", they are saying "Information about your software usage, AND Information about your software". (among everything else)

Yes, what Atmos Duality is saying is correct. "Information about your software" could mean "what OS are you using" but it could also mean "what is every piece of software you have on that system and all their config options". Which really isn't something they should be looking for.

OT: Anyway, I spoke with somebody more knowledgeable than me in legal matters in computing and asked him about exactly that - setting too broad a scope on the EULA. The answer was the following - you (in this case EA) are allowed to scope your license broadly. So there isn't anything (legally) stopping EA from putting "By installing Origin we now own your hard drive". However, such a clause is not enforceable by the court. In this particular case, EA wouldn't be able to force you (legally, as in sue you) if you limit Origin (for example by sandboxing it).

I know this comment will be swallowed by the rest of the thread but I thought it was something worth sharing.

 

[Atmos Duality]

OT: Anyway, I spoke with somebody more knowledgeable than me in legal matters in computing and asked him about exactly that - setting too broad a scope on the EULA. The answer was the following - you (in this case EA) are allowed to scope your license broadly. So there isn't anything (legally) stopping EA from putting "By installing Origin we now own your hard drive". However, such a clause is not enforceable by the court. In this particular case, EA wouldn't be able to force you (legally, as in sue you) if you limit Origin (for example by sandboxing it).

I know this comment will be swallowed by the rest of the thread but I thought it was something worth sharing.

Well, at least my legalese isn't as terribly rusty as I thought, so thanks for the confirmation. On the other hand, EA isn't likely to sue you; they'd probably just take away access to the games you paid for (as a first step if nothing else).

Oh, and if memory serves, EA put in that bullshit "You can't sue us; it must go to arbitration chosen by us first" clause (meaning you won't get what you want anyway) that Sony was also parading around. I question how effective that might be since that basically slams the door on everything but criminal charges.

Out of curiosity, did your legal expert say on what terms it would be rejected?
The one I'm thinking of is Unconscionable/Unreasonable claims; or alternatively an existing conflicting law.

 

[ph0b0s123]

OT: Anyway, I spoke with somebody more knowledgeable than me in legal matters in computing and asked him about exactly that - setting too broad a scope on the EULA. The answer was the following - you (in this case EA) are allowed to scope your license broadly. So there isn't anything (legally) stopping EA from putting "By installing Origin we now own your hard drive". However, such a clause is not enforceable by the court. In this particular case, EA wouldn't be able to force you (legally, as in sue you) if you limit Origin (for example by sandboxing it).

I know this comment will be swallowed by the rest of the thread but I thought it was something worth sharing.

As the person who posted the thread I want to say thanks for adding that. It just confirms my reading of it.

 

[Vegosiux]

Oh, and if memory serves, EA put in that bullshit "You can't sue us; it must go to arbitration chosen by us first" clause (meaning you won't get what you want anyway) that Sony was also parading around. I question how effective that might be since that basically slams the door on everything but criminal charges.

As a layman speaking, I'd also agrue such a clause should be unenforceable. I mean, I'm not sure a clause that makes you waive a constitutional right should be enforceable and all.

 

[ph0b0s123]

-snip-
And? That's the whole point of an EULA. Steam only allows the opt out because Valve wants to avoid this kind of PR. Do you read every EULA you agree to? If not, you might be surprised at all the crap you've agreed to over the years. If so, why are you picking on poor EA when the whole bloody system is evil, and they're just one cog?

Edit: Just saw your post about precedent setting. This is not precedent setting. The precedent was set in a court case back in the 90's. EULAs, look 'em up.

We can go on about EULA's and I agree with your sentiments that generally across the industry they are broken and may well be unenforceable in some places like the EU.

The reason I pick on EA, is even though their EULA reads like most others, as far the 'we have all the power and rights and you have none', they are doing something that no-one else is doing. Even though others have the same sort of EULA's, it is only Origin that is rooting around your system AND sending the results of that rooting to EA as a mandatory part of using their software. Now I have welcomed people to correct me on this and point out other software that roots around AND sends data to the company who makes that software, as a mandatory price for having the software installed, with evidence, but no-one has come forwards.

Other software has a root around your system, but does not send the data collected without your permission each time, this includes Steam.

So what Origin is doing is new and therefore sets a precedent. One which other companies will see, as well as the lack of complaint and think well we have a similar EULA to EA, why the hell are we asking users, if it is OK to dig around their systems. We will just make it a mandatory part of having the software installed, as well. I say, this behavior should be stopped now before it becomes too wide spread and is impossible to stop, closing the barn door after the horse has bolted so to speak.

People ask why doing I kick up about Google or Facebook if I am so worried about privacy. I don't have to as there are plenty of others including the EU who are doing that job for me.

 

[Vrach]

So... they do do the same thing, Steam just gives you a say in the matter?

Don't get me wrong, Steam's nicer. But bottom line, it doesn't make a damn difference to anyone except EA who have all that data Steam users would've refused to give them. Seeing as they can't do anything with that data other than analyse it for their own purposes (which I can personally see how easily it could lead to better games), I just don't give a toss.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

snip

Eh, the way I see it, there's no such thing as new precedent when the precedent has already been set that companies can put whatever they want in the things, and you have to agree to it if you want to use their product. There's a company in the UK that now owns a few hundred (or is it several thousand?) souls because of a line they put into an EULA (people who read the whole thing were given the option to disagree with that, and get paid 5 pounds to boot. Almost nobody did.) Any new lows they stoop to are just well within the bounds of what you can do with an EULA. You want to prevent stuff like this, there's your problem.

 

[SoldierC4]

Other software has a root around your system, but does not send the data collected without your permission each time, this includes Steam.

What... what? did you even read my last post, like even a little? Or have done any research whatsoever. You give permission when you agree to the EULA of most software, Steam and Windows does this, you have to opt out or data collection is automatic after installation, I've never met someone who said they had been asked to send data by Windows or Steam. The only exception is things like data crashes, or certain programs that ask about data collection separate from the EULA.

So like I said AGAIN, Origin is only different in that the only kind of "opt-out" you can have is by uninstalling. Which they are completely entitled to do as it is their software, if you don't like it, you uninstall it. End of story. Sorry if you feel that they should change something that is completely in their right to do. Perhaps if enough people think it's a serious issue and EA sees it's affecting their sales, they will choose to change it, but there have already been countless countless topics about this and I lost all patience for the whining months ago.

 

[Callate]

*sigh*

A lot of "who cares". I care, you should, and your lack of willingness to care sends a message to companies like EA that they'll probably get away with their next trick, too. Apathy is certainly nothing to be proud of.

So, aside from the fact that EA's TOS, as I keep repeating, causes the signer to lose their ability to engage in a jury or class action lawsuit (and just to add insult to injury, they reserve the right to press such a suit against you if you compromise their IP), have you noticed the list of things for which they can take away your ability to play games?

It isn't limited to what you do on their message boards. Or in their games. If you have disk mirroring software, that could be enough. (And if you've installed certain perfectly legal disk utility software suites, you may have disk mirroring software without even knowing it.) If you talk about the "jeep bug" on the Escapist, that could be enough. They could even ban the people responsible for the "face map import" software some are using as a work-around for the recent bug in Mass Effect 3, even though they're suggesting it as a work-around themselves. (I will note that they haven't done this, but there's nothing to prevent them from doing so, nor would the programmers have any significant redress if they did- they're in violation of the forbiddance to "Modify or attempt to modify any file or any other part of the EA Service that EA does not specifically authorize you to modify" and possibly "Upload any software or Content that you do not own or have permission to freely distribute" as well.)

Assuming nothing nefarious occurs on that line, one might also simply want to consider that your software profile might also be used for "marketing", including data about which games they might choose to withhold or withdraw from other online services like Steam, or which games with an online component they can most effectively shut down servers for. Also which non-EA games you're playing so they know which titles' features they should be attempting to rip off in the next generation of sequels.

Annnnd they might modify their ToS at any time, and throw you out of your games if you try to opt out. Which you won't, because they aren't obligated to tell you when you do.

I can go on...