"For privacy, Origin is the same as Steam" WRONG!!! -Updated

[Atmos Duality]

Sigh. I see a lot of arguments that aren't addressing the details here, or are curiously omitting them. Fine. I'll take a crack at it for all the good it'll do me.

The non-personally identifiable information that EA
collects includes technical and related information that identifies your computer
(including the Internet Protocol Address) and operating system, as well as
information about your Application usage (including but not limited to successful
installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware.

I draw special attention to the bolded and italicized parts.

Legally speaking, these are two separate terms so you cannot equate them or lump them together under the same definition. Both need limiting clauses. They are not just saying "information about your software usage", they are saying "Information about your software usage, AND Information about your software". (among everything else)

I bring this up, because nearly every argument I've seen in this thread treats them as the same term. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

"Software usage" is somewhat nebuluous, but it implies at least access to data they cannot monitor via Origin traffic (you accessing their servers, that is).

But more worrying is the bolded term: Software.
"Software", as defined in the general sense, means EVERYTHING ON YOUR HARD DRIVE, not just executables, or post-compiled applications. A simple text file is software. Mozilla Firefox is software. Windows Shell, is software. Your video driver is software. That digital picture of your secret fursuit or Halloween costume, is software.

Hiding it amidst a sea of other terms and then burying it under "Intentions" is tricky business, but it's still right there in the writing. Remove the other items in the list (which does NOT change the context of the other items here, as the same condition is addressing each term in the same manner) and it reads:

"The non-personally identifiable information that EA collects includes information about your software."

"Information about your software" isn't further defined or restricted. What exactly are they gathering? Timestamps? Names of files? Game saves? Pictures? Non-IDing information within the software/files?
All of these could be interpreted as actions towards their defined intentions, and intentions aren't legally defined limits.

Conditions with vague terms are ripe for exploitation; which is part of why reading legalese is such a colossal pain in the ass, yet it's still rather essential in the case of pre-purchase services (unlike post-purchase EULAs, which cannot ensure that the customer knew about the terms before purchase; Contracts of Adhesion. It's a bit different here, unless you didn't buy a copy of ME3 in retail for PC. Very tricky business, this legal bullshit..).

 

[DrOswald]

For me, this issue is more about trust than EULA's. I like Valve, they have always done right by me. When I have a problem, the response is quick. The make good games, and steam in particular is a great service that has provided me with cheap and high quality entertainment for years. They are in it for themselves, but they have decided that showing the consumer respect is a good business strategy. I like Valve. They have fostered the company/consumer relationship. Valve has shown they are not going to dick me over just because they can.

EA, on the other hand, I dislike for more reasons than I can list, but lets have a go at it anyway. They show no respect for their costumers, they try their best to shove day 1 DLC down my throat, they have advertising campaigns that are often offensive and even more often stupid, their online service is bad, they pioneered they online pass, and the list goes on. I don't like EA. They regularly abuse the company/consumer relationship. I have no doubt that EA would throw me under a bus if it meant an extra $60 and they could get away with it.

 

[DoPo]

Sigh. I see a lot of arguments that aren't addressing the details here, or are curiously omitting them. Fine. I'll take a crack at it for all the good it'll do me.

The non-personally identifiable information that EA
collects includes technical and related information that identifies your computer
(including the Internet Protocol Address) and operating system, as well as
information about your Application usage (including but not limited to successful
installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware.

I draw special attention to the bolded and italicized parts.

Legally speaking, these are two separate terms so you cannot equate them or lump them together under the same definition. Both need limiting clauses. They are not just saying "information about your software usage", they are saying "Information about your software usage, AND Information about your software". (among everything else)

Yes, what Atmos Duality is saying is correct. "Information about your software" could mean "what OS are you using" but it could also mean "what is every piece of software you have on that system and all their config options". Which really isn't something they should be looking for.

OT: Anyway, I spoke with somebody more knowledgeable than me in legal matters in computing and asked him about exactly that - setting too broad a scope on the EULA. The answer was the following - you (in this case EA) are allowed to scope your license broadly. So there isn't anything (legally) stopping EA from putting "By installing Origin we now own your hard drive". However, such a clause is not enforceable by the court. In this particular case, EA wouldn't be able to force you (legally, as in sue you) if you limit Origin (for example by sandboxing it).

I know this comment will be swallowed by the rest of the thread but I thought it was something worth sharing.

 

[Atmos Duality]

OT: Anyway, I spoke with somebody more knowledgeable than me in legal matters in computing and asked him about exactly that - setting too broad a scope on the EULA. The answer was the following - you (in this case EA) are allowed to scope your license broadly. So there isn't anything (legally) stopping EA from putting "By installing Origin we now own your hard drive". However, such a clause is not enforceable by the court. In this particular case, EA wouldn't be able to force you (legally, as in sue you) if you limit Origin (for example by sandboxing it).

I know this comment will be swallowed by the rest of the thread but I thought it was something worth sharing.

Well, at least my legalese isn't as terribly rusty as I thought, so thanks for the confirmation. On the other hand, EA isn't likely to sue you; they'd probably just take away access to the games you paid for (as a first step if nothing else).

Oh, and if memory serves, EA put in that bullshit "You can't sue us; it must go to arbitration chosen by us first" clause (meaning you won't get what you want anyway) that Sony was also parading around. I question how effective that might be since that basically slams the door on everything but criminal charges.

Out of curiosity, did your legal expert say on what terms it would be rejected?
The one I'm thinking of is Unconscionable/Unreasonable claims; or alternatively an existing conflicting law.

 

[ph0b0s123]

OT: Anyway, I spoke with somebody more knowledgeable than me in legal matters in computing and asked him about exactly that - setting too broad a scope on the EULA. The answer was the following - you (in this case EA) are allowed to scope your license broadly. So there isn't anything (legally) stopping EA from putting "By installing Origin we now own your hard drive". However, such a clause is not enforceable by the court. In this particular case, EA wouldn't be able to force you (legally, as in sue you) if you limit Origin (for example by sandboxing it).

I know this comment will be swallowed by the rest of the thread but I thought it was something worth sharing.

As the person who posted the thread I want to say thanks for adding that. It just confirms my reading of it.

 

[Vegosiux]

Oh, and if memory serves, EA put in that bullshit "You can't sue us; it must go to arbitration chosen by us first" clause (meaning you won't get what you want anyway) that Sony was also parading around. I question how effective that might be since that basically slams the door on everything but criminal charges.

As a layman speaking, I'd also agrue such a clause should be unenforceable. I mean, I'm not sure a clause that makes you waive a constitutional right should be enforceable and all.

 

[ph0b0s123]

-snip-
And? That's the whole point of an EULA. Steam only allows the opt out because Valve wants to avoid this kind of PR. Do you read every EULA you agree to? If not, you might be surprised at all the crap you've agreed to over the years. If so, why are you picking on poor EA when the whole bloody system is evil, and they're just one cog?

Edit: Just saw your post about precedent setting. This is not precedent setting. The precedent was set in a court case back in the 90's. EULAs, look 'em up.

We can go on about EULA's and I agree with your sentiments that generally across the industry they are broken and may well be unenforceable in some places like the EU.

The reason I pick on EA, is even though their EULA reads like most others, as far the 'we have all the power and rights and you have none', they are doing something that no-one else is doing. Even though others have the same sort of EULA's, it is only Origin that is rooting around your system AND sending the results of that rooting to EA as a mandatory part of using their software. Now I have welcomed people to correct me on this and point out other software that roots around AND sends data to the company who makes that software, as a mandatory price for having the software installed, with evidence, but no-one has come forwards.

Other software has a root around your system, but does not send the data collected without your permission each time, this includes Steam.

So what Origin is doing is new and therefore sets a precedent. One which other companies will see, as well as the lack of complaint and think well we have a similar EULA to EA, why the hell are we asking users, if it is OK to dig around their systems. We will just make it a mandatory part of having the software installed, as well. I say, this behavior should be stopped now before it becomes too wide spread and is impossible to stop, closing the barn door after the horse has bolted so to speak.

People ask why doing I kick up about Google or Facebook if I am so worried about privacy. I don't have to as there are plenty of others including the EU who are doing that job for me.

 

[Vrach]

So... they do do the same thing, Steam just gives you a say in the matter?

Don't get me wrong, Steam's nicer. But bottom line, it doesn't make a damn difference to anyone except EA who have all that data Steam users would've refused to give them. Seeing as they can't do anything with that data other than analyse it for their own purposes (which I can personally see how easily it could lead to better games), I just don't give a toss.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

snip

Eh, the way I see it, there's no such thing as new precedent when the precedent has already been set that companies can put whatever they want in the things, and you have to agree to it if you want to use their product. There's a company in the UK that now owns a few hundred (or is it several thousand?) souls because of a line they put into an EULA (people who read the whole thing were given the option to disagree with that, and get paid 5 pounds to boot. Almost nobody did.) Any new lows they stoop to are just well within the bounds of what you can do with an EULA. You want to prevent stuff like this, there's your problem.

 

[SoldierC4]

Other software has a root around your system, but does not send the data collected without your permission each time, this includes Steam.

What... what? did you even read my last post, like even a little? Or have done any research whatsoever. You give permission when you agree to the EULA of most software, Steam and Windows does this, you have to opt out or data collection is automatic after installation, I've never met someone who said they had been asked to send data by Windows or Steam. The only exception is things like data crashes, or certain programs that ask about data collection separate from the EULA.

So like I said AGAIN, Origin is only different in that the only kind of "opt-out" you can have is by uninstalling. Which they are completely entitled to do as it is their software, if you don't like it, you uninstall it. End of story. Sorry if you feel that they should change something that is completely in their right to do. Perhaps if enough people think it's a serious issue and EA sees it's affecting their sales, they will choose to change it, but there have already been countless countless topics about this and I lost all patience for the whining months ago.

 

[Callate]

*sigh*

A lot of "who cares". I care, you should, and your lack of willingness to care sends a message to companies like EA that they'll probably get away with their next trick, too. Apathy is certainly nothing to be proud of.

So, aside from the fact that EA's TOS, as I keep repeating, causes the signer to lose their ability to engage in a jury or class action lawsuit (and just to add insult to injury, they reserve the right to press such a suit against you if you compromise their IP), have you noticed the list of things for which they can take away your ability to play games?

It isn't limited to what you do on their message boards. Or in their games. If you have disk mirroring software, that could be enough. (And if you've installed certain perfectly legal disk utility software suites, you may have disk mirroring software without even knowing it.) If you talk about the "jeep bug" on the Escapist, that could be enough. They could even ban the people responsible for the "face map import" software some are using as a work-around for the recent bug in Mass Effect 3, even though they're suggesting it as a work-around themselves. (I will note that they haven't done this, but there's nothing to prevent them from doing so, nor would the programmers have any significant redress if they did- they're in violation of the forbiddance to "Modify or attempt to modify any file or any other part of the EA Service that EA does not specifically authorize you to modify" and possibly "Upload any software or Content that you do not own or have permission to freely distribute" as well.)

Assuming nothing nefarious occurs on that line, one might also simply want to consider that your software profile might also be used for "marketing", including data about which games they might choose to withhold or withdraw from other online services like Steam, or which games with an online component they can most effectively shut down servers for. Also which non-EA games you're playing so they know which titles' features they should be attempting to rip off in the next generation of sequels.

Annnnd they might modify their ToS at any time, and throw you out of your games if you try to opt out. Which you won't, because they aren't obligated to tell you when you do.

I can go on...

 

[SoldierC4]

*sigh*

A lot of "who cares". I care, you should, and your lack of willingness to care sends a message to companies like EA that they'll probably get away with their next trick, too. Apathy is certainly nothing to be proud of.

So, aside from the fact that EA's TOS, as I keep repeating, causes the signer to lose their ability to engage in a jury or class action lawsuit (and just to add insult to injury, they reserve the right to press such a suit against you if you compromise their IP), have you noticed the list of things for which they can take away your ability to play games?

It isn't limited to what you do on their message boards. Or in their games. If you have disk mirroring software, that could be enough. (And if you've installed certain perfectly legal disk utility software suites, you may have disk mirroring software without even knowing it.) If you talk about the "jeep bug" on the Escapist, that could be enough. They could even ban the people responsible for the "face map import" software some are using as a work-around for the recent bug in Mass Effect 3, even though they're suggesting it as a work-around themselves. (I will note that they haven't done this, but there's nothing to prevent them from doing so, nor would the programmers have any significant redress if they did- they're in violation of the forbiddance to "Modify or attempt to modify any file or any other part of the EA Service that EA does not specifically authorize you to modify" and possibly "Upload any software or Content that you do not own or have permission to freely distribute" as well.)

Assuming nothing nefarious occurs on that line, one might also simply want to consider that your software profile might also be used for "marketing", including data about which games they might choose to withhold or withdraw from other online services like Steam, or which games with an online component they can most effectively shut down servers for. Also which non-EA games you're playing so they know which titles' features they should be attempting to rip off in the next generation of sequels.

Annnnd they might modify their ToS at any time, and throw you out of your games if you try to opt out. Which you won't, because they aren't obligated to tell you when you do.

I can go on...

Funny thing, you telling me what I should care about, as if your opinions instantly mean that everyone sees the world as pessimistically as you. I know very well what they could do, I also know what they have done, and it's very easy to infer where EA would draw the line. No, I don't worry about it, I choose to go with their ToS, which has nothing in it that actually causes me to think that I might be threatened. If I feel they change something that crosses the line, then I will stop using their service, and I'm old enough to accept the consequences of the actions I take.

 

[black_knight1337]

*le snip

-Snip-

So yea, you just proved my point, my point isn't that they gather data, this was a given AGES ago, everyone knoes Origin, as well as most other programs gather data. However here is a big diffrence between when you say "They take ALL of your hardware and software information." Which is bias talk translating to "They steal ALL the personal info on my machine". No, just no, look at what you posted. All the info you posted on what they take is fairly regular information for data gathering. They may take on a whole a bit more then some programs, but it still isn't that much. Under that EULA they can't keylog you or steal personal files, they can only look at what programs you have.

-Ip
*Needed for basically anything web based

-Operating System
*Required for the software to run

-Hardware Specifications
*Basic info needed for running software, extra data gathered on this is generally
unimportant, NEVER heard anyone complain about this

-Peripheral Devices
*Probably the most intrusive thing on here, they can see what type of keyboard or mouse you are using, or if you use a iPhone or Android (Note they say "unique device IDs or other device identifiers" not info on the device)

-Installed Software
*Installed software, at least to me this isn't intrusive, Steam does this, never bothered me

-Software Usage
*So they can see you install/uninstall software, and they can see if you like to use Chrome or Firefox, this isn't to large of a difference from installed software, except they get to know if those programs you installed are actually being used (as opposed to say if you had installed Steam, but never use it, they'd be able to tell the difference) because looking at just what is installed doesn't tell them much in terms of demographic software use.

-General Account Information (That's a given no matter what program)
-Network Media Access Control Address and Connection
*More network information
-General Origin Feature Usage

If they don't take all of it then please tell me what isn't being taken. Now lets get something straight here, which also happens to be the entire point of this thread, is that Steam does not do this without your express permission. With Origin you install the program and they just start taking your information. Compare this to Steam now. When you install Steam of course there is general information that they monitor (same as every program of this nature) but when it comes to their monthly surveys of your software and hardware it is optional. So with Steam you are given the choice of giving them your data, with Origin however you are forced to give them the data or go without all of their games.
I find the information that Ea is taking to be personal information. It monitors what I am using my computer for. This is something I should know, but no-one else should. I would be ok with this if we were actually given a choice on this matter without losing all of their services. But with Origin this is not the case so until they actually give us this choice then I won't even consider touching Origin.

 

[ph0b0s123]

Other software has a root around your system, but does not send the data collected without your permission each time, this includes Steam.

What... what? did you even read my last post, like even a little? Or have done any research whatsoever. You give permission when you agree to the EULA of most software, Steam and Windows does this, you have to opt out or data collection is automatic after installation, I've never met someone who said they had been asked to send data by Windows or Steam. The only exception is things like data crashes, or certain programs that ask about data collection separate from the EULA.

So like I said AGAIN, Origin is only different in that the only kind of "opt-out" you can have is by uninstalling. Which they are completely entitled to do as it is their software, if you don't like it, you uninstall it. End of story. Sorry if you feel that they should change something that is completely in their right to do. Perhaps if enough people think it's a serious issue and EA sees it's affecting their sales, they will choose to change it, but there have already been countless countless topics about this and I lost all patience for the whining months ago.

Yes, I did read the post and have knowledge on the subject. I am still waiting for you to backup your assertion that Steam and Windows do exactly what Origin does. You keep on saying the do the same things because they are covered by similar EULA's, but give no details or evidence to back it up.

It does not matter that they have similar EULA's that give them leeway root around your system and send the detail back, because only Origin is unique in making that a mandatory part of their service.

Again prove me wrong. I will even give you some help. Windows looks around at your system to suggest updates as part of their windows update system. But guess what it still is not like Origin as you can turn it off and get the updates as manual downloads without Microsoft saying you then cannot use their OS / software.

So really unless you can backup your assertion that other software acts the same as Origin on this issue, you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

It's funny to me how the same people who would complain about their PC's hardware specs being sent to a server somewhere are also people who use Facebook, who use any Google service, who pretty much use the internet in any shape or form.

Someone is always collecting data on you. Get the hell over it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

You do understand what the fuck "data collection" is and how it differs from "silently install rootkits", right?

Yeah. You do understand that most, if not all, of these points have already happened in one area or another. If he's talking about Worst Case, then that's all at once.

But, don't let me stop you condemning something without evidence.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

But, don't let me stop you condemning something without evidence.

Irony at it's finest.

If your post is meant to be sarcastic, then fair enough, I fell for it. If not, my opinion doesn't change.

 

[redisforever]

It doesn't have to do with the fact that they do that, it's just the principle that you should be allowed to opt out if you so choose. Personally, I'm getting ME3 for Xbox, so I don't have to bother with Origin.

I agree with that. That's why I got Battlefield 3 on PS3, not PC. I'd love to get it for PC, but I really don't want to deal with Origin. If they released it for Steam, with a small part of Origin included, like chat, friends, and multiplayer, like Quantum of Solace and GFWL, then I'd consider buying it even, but no option? Really not going to end all that well.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

my opinion doesn't change.

That is why you fail. Perhaps you should look back at your recent posts where you repeatedly deem anyone who disagrees with you "immature" and wonder where your evidence is.

You seem to be missing the idea that hypothetical situations rely on exaggeration of known situations. Perhaps you can come back then and conduct yourself in an orderly manner with counter-proposals instead of simply relying on condemnation of others.

It's very easy to sit there in your pants being rude to people. Less easy to look at others posts with reasoned debate.

If you were looking for evidence, have a look at my posts. I've been collecting information for 6 months now, while dealing with a variety of sock-puppets.

 

[LiquidSolstice]

my opinion doesn't change.

That is why you fail. Perhaps you should look back at your recent posts where you repeatedly deem anyone who disagrees with you "immature" and wonder where your evidence is.

You seem to be missing the idea that hypothetical situations rely on exaggeration of known situations. Perhaps you can come back then and conduct yourself in an orderly manner with counter-proposals instead of simply relying on condemnation of others.

It's very easy to sit there in your pants being rude to people. Less easy to look at others posts with reasoned debate.

If you were looking for evidence, have a look at my posts. I've been collecting information for 6 months now, while dealing with a variety of sock-puppets.

I'm supposed to dig through your posts to find proof of your claims? I don't have a news subscription to what you post on this site, just saying...

I'm very much aware of what hypothetical situations require. Your so-called points borderline on hyperbole.

At any rate, your exaggerations don't make any sense in this situation because you made the completely illogical jump from "we're collecting information" to "we're going to install software on your computer".