Free Radicals

[jehk]

For instance, there are feminists who want to topple the patriarchy and women who just want equal pay.

Nevermind. Read pay as play. Gave it a different context in my mind.

 

[tangoprime]

Am I the only one that thought of this when I saw "Free Radicals" as the title?

One of the best Bond lines ever at the end there.

 

[Blaster395]

I oppose radical feminism simply because it's extremely transphobic. They believe that MTF trans are imposters and FTM are traitors. It's not just "Smash the Patriarchy", it goes beyond that, and its so bad that radfems have managed to use their influence to ban MTF trans people from joining several feminist organizations.

Not to mention they have shot themselves in the foot by labeling all the good things with feminine names and labeling all the bad things with masculine names. Worst PR move ever.

It really isn't any more complicated than that.

 

[Farther than stars]

Does feminism stand to gain anything by trying to redefine what a radical feminist is? I don't think so.

Do Muslims stand to gain anything by trying to redefine what radical Islam is?

I've known quite a few Muslims over the years. One guy was as devout in his religion as anyone I've ever met. Yet he was the first to condemn any violent act done in the name of Islam.

Would he benefit by having the radical elements of his religion redefined and distanced from his mainstream beliefs?

You bet he would have.

For one, he wouldn't have the majority of Americans thinking he should take personal responsibility for 9/11.

I wholeheartedly agree with the core feminist principle of equality for all. Women should be paid as much as men. There should be no doors closed for either gender.

But when you have a radical feminist calling for the castration of all pre-pubescent men, the feminist movement would certainly benefit by redefining that element as something else entirely.

See the problem is, you didn't get the message the comic was trying to send. That is not what radical means in this situation. Radical feminism is about toppling the patriarchy, not castrating all men. -.-

 

[Entitled]

So a radical feminist is anyone who believes in patriarchy? Ok fine, I don't like them too much either. I think that whole theory brings nothing of value to discussion since it's so easily used a vague cop-out/scapegoat. Often times I'll hear them say something like "that bias against men exists because of patriarchy, buy our feminist war bonds against the evil patriarchy if you want to help men".

Patriarchy is not a theory, it's the name of a social system.

Just like anarchy, or oligarchy, or monarchy.

Specifically, this one is greek for a system where the authority (arkhēs) is primarily held by males(patēr). That's it. No complex "theory", or "scapegoat", pretty much just the statement that the problem with gender issues is the focus on male authority.

As long as you believe that the idea of a society "ruled by men" is possible, or even it used to exist, the question is not really whether you "believe in the patriarchy theory", but only exactly how appropriately it describes our current society.

 

[freaper]

I understand what you tried to do with her hands in panel two, but it looks a tad awkward. Desks are pretty mandatory to make that pose work.

 

[IceForce]

You know, I cannot from any real perspective see how this comic will create an argument. It is quite simply pointing out that "Radical" in this particular context does not mean what many attribute it to mean. I see no issue.

... then you haven't been on this website for long enough, or you haven't been paying attention.

I'll give you a couple of recent examples.

Jimquisition about how internet death threats are bad:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.825793-Jimquisition-Im-Going-To-Murder-Your-Children
This shoud've been simple. Internet death threats are bad. There's no disputing it.
But somehow, it spiralled into 16 pages of arguments.

ZP, where Yahtzee makes a hamless and throwaway transgender joke:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.825922-Zero-Punctuation-Papers-Please-and-Brothers-A-Tale-of-Two-Sons
Once again, something that should've been pretty tame, spiralled into a massive flamewar that completely took over the thread.

There are many, many other countless examples.
People here will find anything to argue about.

 

[TiberiusEsuriens]

False advertising.

False advertising indeed. They must be thinking of straw feminists!

http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341

 

[Farther than stars]

For instance, there are feminists who want to topple the patriarchy and women who just want equal pay.

Nevermind. Read pay as play. Gave it a different context in my mind.

No worries.

I oppose radical feminism simply because it's extremely transphobic. They believe that MTF trans are imposters and FTM are traitors.

Not to mention they have shot themselves in the foot by labeling all the good things with feminine names and labeling all the bad things with masculine names. Worst PR move ever.

It really isn't any more complicated than that.

While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Free Radicals

Hold up - are you suggesting that Poochie was a radical feminist?

EDIT: pissflaps, I have been thoroughly ninja'd :-(

 

[Eternal_Lament]

Kill people, burn shit, fuck school!

Kill people, burn shit, fuck school!

Kill people, burn shit, fu-

Sorry, wrong Radical

Anyways, I assume that, since we are talking about 90's radical here (or at least I assume so given the third panel) that this has a bit to do with Gone Home?

 

[Mr F.]

So is The Escapist just going "hey guys we need more traffic, make stuff that's guaranteed to create arguments" to their content creators now?

Aww, fuck it, I will bite.

You know, I cannot from any real perspective see how this comic will create an argument. It is quite simply pointing out that "Radical" in this particular context does not mean what many attribute it to mean.

But it does though. Radical [insert ideology here] means "an extreme viewpoint about [same ideology]". Just because you add feminist doesn't change that. It could describe a particular school of thought, but that becomes a second definition, it doesn't suddenly override the first.

Now, if we wanted a comic that could create an argument AND make a decent point, how about we run one on how the Patriarchy is incredibly damaging to men as well as women, particularly with the ridiculous, and many times utterly contradictory, ways men are expected to act (Violent, Gentle, Predator, Kind blah blah blah).

And then I'd point out that patriarchy is not the same thing as 'a society with gender roles'. Hypothetically anyway.

Well, No, you are quite right. A society could have gender roles without patriarchy.

However, the dominant societies on this particular planet have patriarchy and gender roles that are so interlinked it becomes almost impossible to separate one from the other. So whilst theoretically you are correct, the reality is far from the theoretical standpoint.

The patriarchy as a concept is damaging both to the people that are being most affected negatively, women (As the argument usually ends there) however, for many men, such as myself, it is damaging because it molds us in such a way as to perpetuate itself. Its not a grand conspiracy, its just what has progressively happened over many, many years. Honestly, I cannot find myself too angry when a young man, or simply a poorly educated man, acts like a sexist wanker. Because that is how they are raised to act, that is how they are expected to act.

Men are expected to be dicks. We are also expected to hate men who are dicks. These days, we are both expected to act like sexual predators and decry those very same actions. A man is supposed to be gentle and kind, yet aggressive and violent when roused. We are supposed to show little to no emotion, unless that emotion is anger in which case we should express that with gusto. Is this down to gender roles, purely and simply? I would argue against that.

I would argue that a man who "Jokily" pretended to grope my sister is a product of the system we live in and a poorer man due to his lack of understanding. He was created and molded by the patriarchy we are all living in. It is damaging for us, damaging for anyone who lives slightly outside of the norm. I would argue that a man who is seen to be crying being called weak is wrong, I would argue that the statement "Boys will be Boys" if kids get into a fight is wrong. But this is really not the place for this particular discussion.

Perhaps we need another thread that will get derailed by extremists on both sides. As for the nitty gritty of the comic?

Well, its all semantics really. Some people, like myself, believe it is making a fair point and think people should just expand their vocabulary. People like you disagree. Funnily, this is one of the few times when both of us are, objectively, accurate.

EDIT:

(yeah patriarchy doesn't mean a conspiracy, blah blah blah, it's an emotionally laden bullshit piece of rhetoric that brings up images of a conspiracy though so they should stick with that).

Yeah, No, do not reply to my response. Do not attempt to talk to me again. I consider this discussion over. I am really, REALLY tired of believing, for half a second, I might be able to have a rational discussion with someone about this on this site. Everyone falls into two camps.

Moderately well educated and ignorant.

For the record, I am not meaning "Ignorant" in a way as to insult you. Yes, society currently values intelligence, whilst being amazingly anti-intellectual (Which, amusingly, you are currently being.) so it can be taken as an insult. I simply mean it as "Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.", in this case the patriarchy or the basic theories behind a lot of sociological theory.

Much like there is no pointing in a physicist discussing physics with a man who is ignorant of the theory, there is no point in a sociologist having a discussion about feminism with people who are ignorant of the theory.

I am done here.

There is nothing to be gained from conversing with you on any subject that has anything to do with feminism, sexism or any form of spinoff. Good day to you.

 

[SonicWaffle]

So is The Escapist just going "hey guys we need more traffic, make stuff that's guaranteed to create arguments" to their content creators now?

To be fair, the authors of Crit Miss are always on a hair trigger when it comes to complaining about sexism stuff. Its their go to thing when they got nothin else I think.

You're thinking of trolling Evangelion fans. That seems to be the new go-to.

Lot of people complaining that comics like this are just to incite pageviews, but...isn't that kinda what it's for? A comic which actively encourages people not to read it aren't going to do very well in the long term.

It's pretty complicated, and I'm not about to go research and write an essay for a forum thread. But there's a lot of information online if you have some free time.

Nonononono, don't send them out to research things. There is a lot of information online, but a lot of it is false and a frankly disturbing amount of it is thoroughly batshit. Anyone going looking for information on the concept of patriarchy runs the risk of falling into a deep, dark hole of mindless horrors. Also known as The Spearhead.

 

[iniudan]

While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

Sire is not gender name for male dog, it a general term to denote paternity in quadruped, the equivalent word to sire for a female quadruped is dam.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I oppose radical feminism simply because it's extremely transphobic. They believe that MTF trans are imposters and FTM are traitors. It's not just "Smash the Patriarchy", it goes beyond that, and its so bad that radfems have managed to use their influence to ban MTF trans people from joining several feminist organizations.

Not entirely fair. There's nothing inherently transphobic about radical feminism.

However, yes, in practice, very many of them do happen to be exceedingly transphobic. I must admit that I was swayed by their rhetoric about that for awhile before reading a wider range of feminist stuff.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Does feminism stand to gain anything by trying to redefine what a radical feminist is? I don't think so.

Do Muslims stand to gain anything by trying to redefine what radical Islam is?

I've known quite a few Muslims over the years. One guy was as devout in his religion as anyone I've ever met. Yet he was the first to condemn any violent act done in the name of Islam.

Would he benefit by having the radical elements of his religion redefined and distanced from his mainstream beliefs?

Violent Muslims are already classified as radicals. What's there to redefine?

The issue is that there are a lot of people who don't classify violent Islam as radical Islam; to them it's all just Islam. Whenever there's an atrocity and someone points out the billion-odd Muslims who aren't blowing people up, there will always be plenty of people quick to point out that "well the rest of them never say anything, so they must approve of it", regardless of how many Muslims actually have spoken out against terrorism.

If there's a general perception of all Muslims as radical extremists, the best way to combat this is to redefine radical Islam in the public consciousness.

 

[SonicWaffle]

A better way to attract page views without resorting to sensationalism is a good storyline.

They tried that. I liked it, apparently very few other people did, and we got a forum full of bitching.

I certainly dont check Order of the Stick, Our Intrepic Crew, or Well of Souls every day for updates because they whine about sexism or make fun of Evangelion fans

How about XKCD, Penny Arcade or SMBC, all well-renonwed comics which tackle the same kind of issues and poke fun at people they think are to blame?

Hell its not even that hard to make a topical comic about things that have gone on recently in your comics sphere of influence instead of resorting to a sensationalist joke.

The sphere of influence is gaming. Recently in the gaming community a lot of anti-feminism backlash has reared its ugly head. Ergo this is a topical comic related to what has gone on recently in the comic's sphere of influence.

It's just also a sensationalist joke.

 

[Weaver]

I'm not really too good at these terms, but doesn't radical feminism postulate that the patriarchy is a huge male conspiracy and all men are working day and night to knowingly and willingly oppress women because we get off on it?

If that's the one, yep; they're pretty nuts.

 

[TwistedEllipses]

Valerie Solanas [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas] described herself as a radical feminist, but advocated the extreme feminist notion of eliminating men. I don't know if she used the term 'radical' this way because she was on the fringes and not entirely sound of mind, but as a loose group you can't expect everyone to use the same language or in the same way. Some feminists would openly reject being labelled one thing or another as it grossly simplifies and divides...

 

[templar1138a]

Given that I'm a feminist myself, I stopped using the term "Radical Feminist" a long time ago (I don't know if I ever did, actually). Instead, I just call it misandry.