Free Radicals

[Eternal_Lament]

Kill people, burn shit, fuck school!

Kill people, burn shit, fuck school!

Kill people, burn shit, fu-

Sorry, wrong Radical

Anyways, I assume that, since we are talking about 90's radical here (or at least I assume so given the third panel) that this has a bit to do with Gone Home?

 

[Mr F.]

So is The Escapist just going "hey guys we need more traffic, make stuff that's guaranteed to create arguments" to their content creators now?

Aww, fuck it, I will bite.

You know, I cannot from any real perspective see how this comic will create an argument. It is quite simply pointing out that "Radical" in this particular context does not mean what many attribute it to mean.

But it does though. Radical [insert ideology here] means "an extreme viewpoint about [same ideology]". Just because you add feminist doesn't change that. It could describe a particular school of thought, but that becomes a second definition, it doesn't suddenly override the first.

Now, if we wanted a comic that could create an argument AND make a decent point, how about we run one on how the Patriarchy is incredibly damaging to men as well as women, particularly with the ridiculous, and many times utterly contradictory, ways men are expected to act (Violent, Gentle, Predator, Kind blah blah blah).

And then I'd point out that patriarchy is not the same thing as 'a society with gender roles'. Hypothetically anyway.

Well, No, you are quite right. A society could have gender roles without patriarchy.

However, the dominant societies on this particular planet have patriarchy and gender roles that are so interlinked it becomes almost impossible to separate one from the other. So whilst theoretically you are correct, the reality is far from the theoretical standpoint.

The patriarchy as a concept is damaging both to the people that are being most affected negatively, women (As the argument usually ends there) however, for many men, such as myself, it is damaging because it molds us in such a way as to perpetuate itself. Its not a grand conspiracy, its just what has progressively happened over many, many years. Honestly, I cannot find myself too angry when a young man, or simply a poorly educated man, acts like a sexist wanker. Because that is how they are raised to act, that is how they are expected to act.

Men are expected to be dicks. We are also expected to hate men who are dicks. These days, we are both expected to act like sexual predators and decry those very same actions. A man is supposed to be gentle and kind, yet aggressive and violent when roused. We are supposed to show little to no emotion, unless that emotion is anger in which case we should express that with gusto. Is this down to gender roles, purely and simply? I would argue against that.

I would argue that a man who "Jokily" pretended to grope my sister is a product of the system we live in and a poorer man due to his lack of understanding. He was created and molded by the patriarchy we are all living in. It is damaging for us, damaging for anyone who lives slightly outside of the norm. I would argue that a man who is seen to be crying being called weak is wrong, I would argue that the statement "Boys will be Boys" if kids get into a fight is wrong. But this is really not the place for this particular discussion.

Perhaps we need another thread that will get derailed by extremists on both sides. As for the nitty gritty of the comic?

Well, its all semantics really. Some people, like myself, believe it is making a fair point and think people should just expand their vocabulary. People like you disagree. Funnily, this is one of the few times when both of us are, objectively, accurate.

EDIT:

(yeah patriarchy doesn't mean a conspiracy, blah blah blah, it's an emotionally laden bullshit piece of rhetoric that brings up images of a conspiracy though so they should stick with that).

Yeah, No, do not reply to my response. Do not attempt to talk to me again. I consider this discussion over. I am really, REALLY tired of believing, for half a second, I might be able to have a rational discussion with someone about this on this site. Everyone falls into two camps.

Moderately well educated and ignorant.

For the record, I am not meaning "Ignorant" in a way as to insult you. Yes, society currently values intelligence, whilst being amazingly anti-intellectual (Which, amusingly, you are currently being.) so it can be taken as an insult. I simply mean it as "Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.", in this case the patriarchy or the basic theories behind a lot of sociological theory.

Much like there is no pointing in a physicist discussing physics with a man who is ignorant of the theory, there is no point in a sociologist having a discussion about feminism with people who are ignorant of the theory.

I am done here.

There is nothing to be gained from conversing with you on any subject that has anything to do with feminism, sexism or any form of spinoff. Good day to you.

 

[SonicWaffle]

So is The Escapist just going "hey guys we need more traffic, make stuff that's guaranteed to create arguments" to their content creators now?

To be fair, the authors of Crit Miss are always on a hair trigger when it comes to complaining about sexism stuff. Its their go to thing when they got nothin else I think.

You're thinking of trolling Evangelion fans. That seems to be the new go-to.

Lot of people complaining that comics like this are just to incite pageviews, but...isn't that kinda what it's for? A comic which actively encourages people not to read it aren't going to do very well in the long term.

It's pretty complicated, and I'm not about to go research and write an essay for a forum thread. But there's a lot of information online if you have some free time.

Nonononono, don't send them out to research things. There is a lot of information online, but a lot of it is false and a frankly disturbing amount of it is thoroughly batshit. Anyone going looking for information on the concept of patriarchy runs the risk of falling into a deep, dark hole of mindless horrors. Also known as The Spearhead.

 

[iniudan]

While the comment about transphobia is a coherent criticism against some radical feminists, it by no means applies to all of them. I know some very radical radical feminists who wholeheartedly support the LGBT movement.
As to the labeling issue, it's not so much that masculine words are bad and feminine words are good, it's more about the way in which they're used. Look at the gender names for dogs for instance. 'Sire' is used to denote lordship when used for a human. And then look at the use of the name for female dogs... When little details like that are packed together, they can have a profound effect on the social psyche.

Sire is not gender name for male dog, it a general term to denote paternity in quadruped, the equivalent word to sire for a female quadruped is dam.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I oppose radical feminism simply because it's extremely transphobic. They believe that MTF trans are imposters and FTM are traitors. It's not just "Smash the Patriarchy", it goes beyond that, and its so bad that radfems have managed to use their influence to ban MTF trans people from joining several feminist organizations.

Not entirely fair. There's nothing inherently transphobic about radical feminism.

However, yes, in practice, very many of them do happen to be exceedingly transphobic. I must admit that I was swayed by their rhetoric about that for awhile before reading a wider range of feminist stuff.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Does feminism stand to gain anything by trying to redefine what a radical feminist is? I don't think so.

Do Muslims stand to gain anything by trying to redefine what radical Islam is?

I've known quite a few Muslims over the years. One guy was as devout in his religion as anyone I've ever met. Yet he was the first to condemn any violent act done in the name of Islam.

Would he benefit by having the radical elements of his religion redefined and distanced from his mainstream beliefs?

Violent Muslims are already classified as radicals. What's there to redefine?

The issue is that there are a lot of people who don't classify violent Islam as radical Islam; to them it's all just Islam. Whenever there's an atrocity and someone points out the billion-odd Muslims who aren't blowing people up, there will always be plenty of people quick to point out that "well the rest of them never say anything, so they must approve of it", regardless of how many Muslims actually have spoken out against terrorism.

If there's a general perception of all Muslims as radical extremists, the best way to combat this is to redefine radical Islam in the public consciousness.

 

[SonicWaffle]

A better way to attract page views without resorting to sensationalism is a good storyline.

They tried that. I liked it, apparently very few other people did, and we got a forum full of bitching.

I certainly dont check Order of the Stick, Our Intrepic Crew, or Well of Souls every day for updates because they whine about sexism or make fun of Evangelion fans

How about XKCD, Penny Arcade or SMBC, all well-renonwed comics which tackle the same kind of issues and poke fun at people they think are to blame?

Hell its not even that hard to make a topical comic about things that have gone on recently in your comics sphere of influence instead of resorting to a sensationalist joke.

The sphere of influence is gaming. Recently in the gaming community a lot of anti-feminism backlash has reared its ugly head. Ergo this is a topical comic related to what has gone on recently in the comic's sphere of influence.

It's just also a sensationalist joke.

 

[Weaver]

I'm not really too good at these terms, but doesn't radical feminism postulate that the patriarchy is a huge male conspiracy and all men are working day and night to knowingly and willingly oppress women because we get off on it?

If that's the one, yep; they're pretty nuts.

 

[TwistedEllipses]

Valerie Solanas [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Solanas] described herself as a radical feminist, but advocated the extreme feminist notion of eliminating men. I don't know if she used the term 'radical' this way because she was on the fringes and not entirely sound of mind, but as a loose group you can't expect everyone to use the same language or in the same way. Some feminists would openly reject being labelled one thing or another as it grossly simplifies and divides...

 

[templar1138a]

Given that I'm a feminist myself, I stopped using the term "Radical Feminist" a long time ago (I don't know if I ever did, actually). Instead, I just call it misandry.

 

[lazinesslord]

So is The Escapist just going "hey guys we need more traffic, make stuff that's guaranteed to create arguments" to their content creators now?

To be fair, the authors of Crit Miss are always on a hair trigger when it comes to complaining about sexism stuff. Its their go to thing when they got nothin else I think.

No, that's Neon Gnesis Evangelion.

 

[TreuloseTomate]

Feminism, Feminism, Sexism, Misogyny, Harassment, Misogyny, Feminism, Rape, Feminism, Sexualization, Objectification, Sexism, Feminism, Misogyny, Patriarchy.

Video Games.

 

[Lilani]

I'd say the patriarchy is much more of a subconscious thing.

I agree that link is totes radical.

The problem I have with Internet discussions about the patriarchy is because nobody seems to know what patriarchy ACTUALLY is. This is the textbook definition of patriarchy, which radical feminism is opposed to.

pa·tri·arch·y [pey-tree-ahr-kee]

noun, plural pa·tri·arch·ies.
1. a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father's clan or tribe.
2. a society, community, or country based on this social organization.

And there you go. It's simply a society where males are the supreme authority. I don't see how that can, in any way, be something "subconscious." Now, looking at the number of male political leaders in the world versus female ones, I think it's safe to say the only way to describe most societies IS patriarchy. Even if we exclude places like northern Africa and the Middle East where the patriarchy is pretty much supported by the law and the dominant culture, in western countries men still hold the vast majority of both wealth and power. And while there may not be any laws keeping this in place, there are still many cultural barriers supported by tradition and certain societal stigmas that are keeping things from evening out as quickly as they should.

The other aspect of radical feminism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism] is stopping traditional gender roles from being impressed on children and young women. Again, while today in western society most women aren't encouraged to stay in the kitchen all their lives, there are still some remnants of this in things we don't put much thought into. For example, children's toys. Ever notice boy's toys are more oriented toward building, creating, problem-solving, and dealing with conflict (Legos, hot wheels, toy construction sets, R/C cars, etc), and girl's toys are more oriented toward domestic tasks (baby dolls, dress-up dolls, kitchen sets, toy vacuums, etc). The question is, do kids like these toys because they want them, or are we giving them very subtle hints that these are the things they SHOULD like?

And more importantly, do these subtle hints affect children later in life when they are developing abstract and potentially professional interests? Are there fewer women interested in engineering because women inherently dislike such things, or are fewer women interested because they weren't exposed to it as much as they were other things when they were young?

So basically, do you think that males should reign supreme, and do you think that women belong in traditional gender roles? No? Then congratulations! You are officially a radical feminist and an anti-patriarch!

 

[broca]

I always thought radical feminism is called radical because it wants to abolish gender roles completely, which it sees as basis of oppression (which is why radical feminists really dislike male trans). Then again, feminism as a whole is so badly defined that the term is mostly useless, so probably it's the same for radical feminism.

Also, of course stuff like the twitter tag "kill all men" seems rather radical to me, even if the people who use it say it is totally okay because either they don't really mean it or violence is okay because of oppression.

 

[itsthesheppy]

I want a Strawman Inc. shirt so I can walk around saying things like

ALL ATHEISTS MUST HATE THEIR LIVE

ALL FEMINISTS HATE MEN

ALL PEOPLE WHO EAT MEAT WANT ANIMALS TO SUFFER

ALL LIBERALS HATE AMERICA

...and so forth, and just point at my shirt if someone tries arguing with me.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Eqaultiy and fairness yes, everything else no.