Funny events in anti-woke world

tstorm823

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You can believe that a country was "built" in a way that was suboptimal and unproductive.
If you believe slavery was unproductive, what are you compensating for? You know as well as I do that the message being sent is "America got wealthy by exploiting slave labor", when slavery was almost certainly an anchor.
Leave the smart analyzation to people that know what they're talking about.
Thank you for identifying my post as "smart analyzation".
This is a conservative idea I cannot get behind. The hierarchies in our society are entirely man-made. There's nothing natural about them. The idea that radical inequality is our natural state is the product of either a privileged upbringing or serious blinders.
I would agree that the specific hierarchies are man-made, but your logic assumes that without them, there would be equal footing. "The rich get richer" is not a unique feature of capitalism. Those with power in any system have more opportunity to gain more power. Tall trees get more sun and grow taller. The top of the food chain grows along with the bottom. Think of games: every game with a resource system has to deal with the issue that whoever gets slightly ahead tends to snowball the rest of the way. Catch-up mechanics are implemented to avoid this. Blue shells exist so that whoever breaks ahead doesn't auto-win.

Societies have implemented plenty of the equivalent of catch-up mechanics: welfare, progressive tax systems, even democracy itself. It is not coincidence that pretty much every nation of the last couple centuries to toss out their system has ended in dictatorship. Hierarchy is a natural outcome, safety nets are artificial, and when you throw out everything and start from scratch, man-made systems take time and effort where nature asserts itself quickly.
 

Buyetyen

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I would agree that the specific hierarchies are man-made, but your logic assumes that without them, there would be equal footing. "The rich get richer" is not a unique feature of capitalism. Those with power in any system have more opportunity to gain more power. Tall trees get more sun and grow taller. The top of the food chain grows along with the bottom. Think of games: every game with a resource system has to deal with the issue that whoever gets slightly ahead tends to snowball the rest of the way. Catch-up mechanics are implemented to avoid this. Blue shells exist so that whoever breaks ahead doesn't auto-win.

Societies have implemented plenty of the equivalent of catch-up mechanics: welfare, progressive tax systems, even democracy itself. It is not coincidence that pretty much every nation of the last couple centuries to toss out their system has ended in dictatorship. Hierarchy is a natural outcome, safety nets are artificial, and when you throw out everything and start from scratch, man-made systems take time and effort where nature asserts itself quickly.
All that to assert the naturalistic fallacy. I never said that hitting the reset button would enable a socialist utopia. That was some shit you made up. I'm saying that your world view is not only anti-fun but fundamentally anti-human. I'm saying that I reject you view that this radical inequality is just the natural order of things, and thus better for us somehow.
 
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Silvanus

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If you believe slavery was unproductive, what are you compensating for?
...!? The work, as well as compensation for the lingering economic impact of a community being financially suppressed for decades.

You cannot genuinely believe that more work = more efficiency, on every level, even societal. But even if it did, it would be irrelevant to the moral argument.

This is a bit like forcing somebody to mine (which, of course, genuinely happened), and then arguing that you don't owe them any wages because it would've been more efficient to buy a digging machine. Uhrm, ok, but it was the slavers fucking choice to do it this way!? What, is somebody only entitled to wages if that worker represents the most efficient method of tackling a task, and can otherwise be unpaid?! That doesn't change the fact that the labour has been coerced from the slave.

You know as well as I do that the message being sent is "America got wealthy by exploiting slave labor", when slavery was almost certainly an anchor.
Did you know that an organisation can accomplish something by one method even when other, better methods could have been pursued?
 
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Trunkage

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If you believe slavery was unproductive, what are you compensating for? You know as well as I do that the message being sent is "America got wealthy by exploiting slave labor", when slavery was almost certainly an anchor.
Yeah, this is a mishmash of terms (some of it not caused by you)

America did not get wealthy by exploiting slave labour. Many elites DID get wealthy this way. The term America does not mean just its elites

I think mismatch occurs because there has been a concern on all sides about calling American slavery for what it was - white rich people exploiting African Americans. I get it - people are trying not to offend white people even when you are saying 'white rich people' together as a term. I.e. this term is not meant to target all white people but a certain segment inside that population... but all some people hear is white and think they are personally being attacked.

So now we are in this limbo land where no one is willing to say White Rich (of that time) Americans got wealthy off slavery. We just say Americans.... and that slave owners definitely did not represent all Americans. Or even all white Americans. Ironic isn't it. Trying to not offended people who are taking offence at things not aimed at them leads to attacks that sound like they are aimed at everyone, including them

As to slavery being an anchor, tryants like Stalin, Hitler or Hussain do the same thing. You use hierarchies to your advantage so you stay on top. The point of these tyrants and the American slavery system is to make sure that they remain on top. The easiest way to do this is to make others not wealthy. While slavery is definitely an anchor for society economically.... that is the desired effect.

Most hierarchies are anchors. By design. Slavery being an anchor is a feature not a bug
 
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tstorm823

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All that to assert the naturalistic fallacy. I never said that hitting the reset button would enable a socialist utopia. That was some shit you made up. I'm saying that your world view is not only anti-fun but fundamentally anti-human. I'm saying that I reject you view that this radical inequality is just the natural order of things, and thus better for us somehow.
That's not what a naturalistic fallacy is. A naturalistic fallacy is arguing that something being natural means it is good. I'm actually saying the opposite. I'm saying the natural state of things is to unflinchingly sort individuals into winners and losers, and it's a good thing that we work to counteract that tendency. You understood half my point, radical inequality is the natural order of things. I am not saying that is better for us. It is certainly worse in most cases.

Your view is the anti-human view, in my perception, in as much as society is the product of human interaction and you credit society for all and only what is bad.
...!? The work, as well as compensation for the lingering economic impact of a community being financially suppressed for decades.
The latter is the good argument, but it also happens to contradict the former. An economically and financially suppressed people is less productive than free people acting of their own will. It is a wrong conclusion to act as if society benefitted from suppressing people. Certainly the people who directly owned slaves benefitted from the labor, but society as a whole suffered even in the economic sense. The slave owners reasonably owed compensation to the slaves, but also, I would say, to the nation as a whole.

The good argument for trying to financially elevate the African American population is that they were financially suppressed for decades, and having a financially suppressed population is bad for everyone. I would not call that reparations. That's not a matter of just compensation. Society didn't reap benefits from the suppression of black people. It's been bad for everyone. Having the white character hold up a sign saying "still has not atoned" is a bad message.
I.e. this term is not meant to target all white people but a certain segment inside that population... but all some people hear is white and think they are personally being attacked.
You are incorrect. There are people trying to target all white people. That is the idea of "white privilege", of "white guilt", of reparations paid by the government funded by everyone, not just those of inherited plantation wealth.
 

Buyetyen

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Your view is the anti-human view, in my perception, in as much as society is the product of human interaction and you credit society for all and only what is bad.
Yes, the humanist is anti-human. I'm glad to know that whatever positions I do not hold, you will invent for me. Jesus, can you even comprehend that no one is buying into this endless game of "No U?"
 
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tstorm823

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Yes, the humanist is anti-human. I'm glad to know that whatever positions I do not hold, you will invent for me. Jesus, can you even comprehend that no one is buying into this endless game of "No U?"
You can grant yourself whatever title you want, but when your position is "everything is great except that people ruined it all", I don't care what you call it.
 

Buyetyen

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You can grant yourself whatever title you want, but when your position is "everything is great except that people ruined it all", I don't care what you call it.
Except that's not my position. You make shit up.

You seem to think you understand the people you disagree with better than they understand themselves. But you continually reveal yourself to be burning strawmen. You assign positions to us, then argue against those and accuse us of everything you're doing. You only make yourself look like a fool.
 

tstorm823

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Except that's not my position. You make shit up.

You seem to think you understand the people you disagree with better than they understand themselves. But you continually reveal yourself to be burning strawmen. You assign positions to us, then argue against those and accuse us of everything you're doing. You only make yourself look like a fool.
If that is not your position, state your position. That's how arguments work. You said there's nothing natural about radical inequality or existing hierarchies, which you seem to consider to be a bad thing and the cause of the bad thing respectively. Assuming you are using man-made and natural as antonyms, you are blaming the issue of inequality on people acting contrary to nature. If that is not what you meant to say, please clarify.
 

Buyetyen

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Assuming you are using man-made and natural as antonyms
There. There's your problem. You assume too much about literally everyone.

My assertion was that the hierarchies of modern society are not a "natural state" for our species and that they are entirely manmade. They are a product of conscious endeavor and generations upon generations of social conditioning rather than any particular natural order we just automatically fall into. That is not a value judgment as you assume, simply a statement of fact.
 
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Absent

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They care as much about children as they do about you, me and anyone else who isn't them and theirs- precisely zero.
Now, listen. I just can't let you say things like that. Just because they disagree with some of your political opinions, doesn't mean th...


Oh okay never mind.
 
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tstorm823

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There. There's your problem. You assume too much about literally everyone.

My assertion was that the hierarchies of modern society are not a "natural state" for our species and that they are entirely manmade. They are a product of conscious endeavor and generations upon generations of social conditioning rather than any particular natural order we just automatically fall into. That is not a value judgment as you assume, simply a statement of fact.
Those words are antonyms. I used the word assume specifically to allow you the option of using those words in a different way. That was not a very good "gotcha".

You're using value neutral phrasing now, but your original assertion was that "the donor class" was acting to "undermine" public education to make it "unsalvageable" "by design." I'm not going to complain about the change in tone if the current posts are a more accurate representation of your views, but you're distancing yourself from the conspiratorial language you used prior.
 

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Not enough white supremacists in schools


On February 7th and 8th, coalitions of far-right groups descended upon two San Diego county civic events. On the 7th, the coalition gathered at the Oceanside Unified School District school board meeting. On the 8th, they gathered at a Santee city council meeting. Several figures attended both events despite not being a constituent of one or both cities. Far-right actors brigaded public comments with transphobic diatribes and intimidated pro-LGBTQ+ activists and locals.

Right-wing groups organized in response to city council public comment about a trans woman using the women’s facilities at the Cameron Family YMCA in Santee. At a subsequent meeting on January 18th, Proud Boys attended and were confronted by antifascist community members, and broader community defense. They continued to gather in the following days, and many of of the same people organized for these meetings.

Louis Uridel, a white man with dreadlocks, stands at a podium and speaks to the Oceanside Unified School District board of education, who is off-screen. There are several people behind him, out of focus. One of those people is standing—Bryce Henson, filming Uridel and holding his phone with both hands.

Louis Uridel speaks at Oceanside Unified School District on February 7th, 2023. He is being filmed by Bryce Henson.

Awaken Church, whose staff had called people to organize at the previous Santee city council meeting, was represented by staff members at these meetings. Awaken has the largest platform among local far-right organizers, and largely are the driving force behind this right-wing mobilization.

In a video of an Awaken Church sermon shared on February 6th by church staff, pastors call on their congregation to attend both civic events. Subsequently, a flier was circulated online by the private Facebook group, SanteeParents4Choice. Its founder also founded the East County Parents Alliance group.

This is a screenshot of a livesteam of a Santee City Council meeting. It contains a picture-in-picture image. The main image is a shot of Samuel Deuth from behind, and a few seats in the front rows of council chambers. Beyond him, city council members are visible. In the lower right-hand corner of the image is the picture-in-picture, an image of Deuth from the front as he addresses city council. More rows of attendees are visible behind him.

Samuel Deuth, a pastor with Awaken Church and TPUSA, addresses Santee city council on February 8th, 2023.

Staff and affiliates of Awaken Church attended and spoke at both meetings. The most well known of the group is Louis Uridel, a TPUSA affiliate, Awaken member, and antivaxx organizer. He was joined by two other prominent figures in the San Diego antivaxx, christian nationalist movement.

Pastor Samuel Deuth and Shaun Frederickson attended and spoke as well. Deuth is a TPUSA affiliate as well as an Awaken pastor. He has previously defended himself against accusations of Christian Nationalism by going live on Instagram while driving away from a TPUSA conference which hosted Donald Trump. Frederickson is an antivaxx organizer the church has worked with. Uridel and Frederickson have worked on antivaxx events in San Diego through Freedom Revival Events. Uridel and Deuth are both a part of Awaken’s Emerge Men’s ministry. The three spent their allotted time making transphobic comments and jokes and fear mongering about trans people.

On both nights, Uridel attempted to turn his public comments into a transphobic tight-five, bemoaning some supposed woke ideology and denying the very existence of trans people through cheap jokes. In Santee, Deuth’s tone was more serious. He characterized trans identities as something people have been coerced into acknowledging—and characterized trans women in women’s restrooms as a battle against evil. He thanked the city council and encouraged them to “challenge the narrative.” Frederickson similarly leaned into accusations and fear mongering–in Oceanside, he accused the head of the LGBT Resource Center of wanting to manipulate children to become LGBTQ.

This is a screenshot of a livestream of a Santee City Council meeting. In it, Shaun Frederickson, an antivaxx organizer and Awaken Church affiliate, addresses city council. He is a white man with dreadlocks. Shaun is holding his phone up to the council, and in it one can barely see the figure of a woman. This is a video of a trans sex-worker's adult content from twitter. Behind Shaun, there are numerous attendees, including Chris Reyes, who is squatting with a camera. To Shaun's left—our right—is a transphobic sign. It reads:

Shaun Frederickson, an antivaxx organizer and Awaken Church affiliate, addresses city council. He is showing city council a video of a trans sex-worker’s content. Behind him is Chris Reyes, a far-right videographer and organizer.

In Santee, Frederickson brought a video of a trans sex worker in a public restroom and used it to imply that gender-inclusive laws will enable predators. However, Frederickson didn’t reveal that the woman in the video was a sex worker in his presentation. He has retweeted the sex worker directly.

All three were clear that they would continue to organize attendance to these public meetings until their demands were met. These strategies echo Michael Flynn, the former Trump admin National Security Advisor who appeared at Awaken Church last year. Flynn has advocated for brigading school boards on multiple occasions.

his is a screenshot of a Santee city council meeting. In it, Audra Morgan can be seen addressing council members. There is a picture-in-picture shot of her from the front. She is gesticulating as she speaks. There are several attendees visible behind her.

Audra Morgan, a San Diego antivaxx organizer, addresses Santee City Council on February 8th, 2023.

Awaken affiliates were joined by other organizations and loosely-affiliated cohorts. Like all the Awaken affiliates present, several speakers at Santee were vocal at San Diego city council and school board meetings last year. All made conspiratorial, antivaxx comments. One such speaker is Audra Morgan, who’s been a fixture at right-wing political demonstrations in San Diego. Another speaker, Alan, routinely pushes Libertarian lines in Escondido and Chula Vista. Several speakers at both events admitted they did not live in the relevant city.

This is a screenshot of the live feed from the Santee City Council meeting on February 8th, 2023. In it, Bryce Henson can be seen commenting to the council, all of whom are off-screen. Henson is standing at a podium and speaking, facing the camera. Behind him, numerous attendees are visible. Two of those attending are wearing LEXIT hats, one in pink and one in black.

Bryce Henson, a far-right organizer, comments at the Santee City Council meeting on February 8th, 2023. Behind him, LEXIT members are in attendance.

This is a screenshot of the live feed from the Oceanside Unified School District Board of Education meeting on February 7th, 2023. In it, Bryce Henson can be seen commenting to the board, all of whom are off-screen. Henson is standing at a podium and gesticulating. There are numerous attendees out of focus behind him.

Bryce Henson, a far-right organizer, comments at the Oceanside Unified School District Board of Education meeting on February 7th, 2023.

One such traveling commenter is Bryce Henson, founder of a “parent advocates” group. Henson commented in Thousand Oaks, San Diego, and Temecula Valley. His organization is opposed to “critical race theory, radical gender theory, and vaccine and mask tyranny.” He protested drag story hour at the Boo Bash in Hillcrest last October. He was joined by Mario Presents, other Gays Against Groomers members, and Proud Boys. He also attended events with LEXIT and Exiled Patriots.

“Our movement is growing, and we are going to have to pick sides now,” said Henson to the Santee city council. He said nearly the same thing to the Oceanside Unified school board the night prior.

The transphobia was consistent across both nights. Some speakers tried to erase trans people, claiming that they were merely dysfunctional gay men. Others tried to portray trans people as sexual deviants. One Oceanside speaker went so far as to claim the devastating earthquake in Turkey was God’s response to Sam Smith’s performance at The Grammy Awards. The pathologization of an identity precedes genocidal ideation, and this was highlighted by one speaker at Oceanside.

When one Mr. Finn commented that Nazi Germany began its genocidal campaign with attacks on gender-affirming care and books about transgender issues, he was met with laughter.

This image consists of two screenshots from the livestreams for Santee City Council and Oceanside Unified, respectively. In both images, Marcie Strange is visible with short blonde hair and a burgundy jacket. In both cases, numerous attendees are visible behind her. In both cases, she is looking down at her paper and addressing the city employees who are off-screen.

Marcie Strange of Gays Against Groomers commented at both Santee City Council and Oceanside Unified.

Extremist groups were represented across both nights. Several attendees in Santee wore LEXIT hats and shirts. Proud Boy-adjacent group Gays Against Groomers had representatives at both meetings, some of whom attended both events. At least one Proud Boy was in attendance at Santee—Adam Kiefer. Although Kiefer was not pictured that night, he was photographed at prior Santee hate rallies. On the 8th, he was joined by right-wing streamer Joshua Fulfer. Kiefer and several masked goons wandered the grounds of city council, seemingly looking for anti-fascists, and rushing to respond to perceived threats. Chris Reyes, who assaulted antifascists in Riverside and regularly joins Proud Boys for anti-choice protests, also attended.

This is an image of a tweet by Josh Fulfer. His display name is

Josh Fulfer publicly confirmed he was in Santee. Attendees confirmed his presence—he wore a red “Make Speech Free Again” hat.

LCRW had the opportunity to speak with a Santee resident who planned on commenting publicly, but opted not to out of concern for her safety.

“I was very uncomfortable. I came as a resident of Santee and an educator to let the city council know that if they decide to cut ties with the YMCA they would be taking jobs and services and activities from the community. I wanted to let them know that all three of my children took lessons from the YMCA,” she wrote.

She continued, “But I felt extremely uncomfortable to share that because the group that came to protest the YMCA and the transgender woman were loud and aggressive. The outside of the city council building was inappropriate and uncomfortable as there were members of extreme right wing groups present and a man selling Trump merchandise. I had to call my husband to come to the meeting to escort me outside because I am a woman of color and I was afraid of the group outside.”

At the end of the Santee city council meeting, Mayor John Minto reassured the right-wingers in the crowd he was working on the their behalf.

“You have no idea what we’re doing behind the scenes, but we’re listening to you, and we’ve heard what you’ve said.”

When Minto indicated that the city council had also listened to the other side, the crowd was silent. Minto then reminded the audience that Santee city council cannot override state mandates.

He was interrupted by jeers.

A photo of the live-feed from Santee city council. Four council members are visible behind the dais, including mayor John Minto. The crest of the city of Santee is visible above Minto's head. The podium used for public comment is unoccupied.

Santee City Council closes out the February 8th meeting.
 
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Buyetyen

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Those words are antonyms. I used the word assume specifically to allow you the option of using those words in a different way. That was not a very good "gotcha".
It wasn't a gotcha at all. You're so paranoid.

You're using value neutral phrasing now, but your original assertion was that "the donor class" was acting to "undermine" public education to make it "unsalvageable" "by design." I'm not going to complain about the change in tone if the current posts are a more accurate representation of your views, but you're distancing yourself from the conspiratorial language you used prior.
YAWN. That assertion was made as a separate point. My point in this thread of conversation was simply that the hierarchies we see now are manmade and not in fact our so-called natural state. And why all the fucking scare quotes? It doesn't make you look smart if that's what you're thinking.
 
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XsjadoBlaydette

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It wasn't a gotcha at all. You're so paranoid.



YAWN.
When your entire political platform is based on petty "gotchas" and "triggering the libs" then that's all they see in other people: there just is not enough imagination or empathy to lead assumptions of others anywhere else other than themselves.
 

BrawlMan

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And why all the fucking scare quotes? It doesn't make you look smart if that's what you're thinking.
You know the old saying:

"You know you got nothing went nothing's got you."

"I can see the fear around you."

He knows he's got less than nothing to stand on and doesn't have the brain capacity to put anything better out.
 

Silvanus

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The latter is the good argument, but it also happens to contradict the former. An economically and financially suppressed people is less productive than free people acting of their own will. It is a wrong conclusion to act as if society benefitted from suppressing people. Certainly the people who directly owned slaves benefitted from the labor, but society as a whole suffered even in the economic sense. The slave owners reasonably owed compensation to the slaves, but also, I would say, to the nation as a whole.
The "society as a whole" enabled the slave owners, and built the foundation of its economy on their coercion and theft. Slave owners did not just do these things sneakily, against the government and society's wishes.

The good argument for trying to financially elevate the African American population is that they were financially suppressed for decades, and having a financially suppressed population is bad for everyone. I would not call that reparations. That's not a matter of just compensation. Society didn't reap benefits from the suppression of black people. It's been bad for everyone. Having the white character hold up a sign saying "still has not atoned" is a bad message.
You've failed to address the core point I was making. Firstly, that something can be inefficient and nonetheless produce. That's exactly what slavery did. And secondly, that wages and renumeration are not only owed to workers who happen to represent the best possible method of attaining the outcome.
 
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Kwak

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My point in this thread of conversation was simply that the hierarchies we see now are manmade and not in fact our so-called natural state.
Mankind is part of nature therefore anything manmade is also natural, ha gotcha!

Any particularly equitable system will also be a manmade system anyway.
Appeal to 'the natural order' is a rightwing fallacy, "as god intended" and all that rot.
 

Ag3ma

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Those words are antonyms.
Usually yes, when "man-made" refers to material objects as it normally does.

However, contextually "man-made" is here clearly being used to describe social constructs rather than material objects. A social construct is distinguished from being "natural" without having to be opposed to it. One might query whether "man-made" is an ideal adjective to describe a social construct, but it's a very reasonable expectation that you would grasp the relevant context.

You're using value neutral phrasing now, but your original assertion was that "the donor class" was acting to "undermine" public education to make it "unsalvageable" "by design." I'm not going to complain about the change in tone if the current posts are a more accurate representation of your views, but you're distancing yourself from the conspiratorial language you used prior.
"Conspiratorial"? This is an interesting word to use, and I would question the implications.

As tax is disproportionately paid by the richer to fund public services for the poorer, there is therefore a clear rationale for the rich to pressure society to reduce public services so they pay less tax and have more private services for profit exploitation. This is not "conspiracy": it's overt political preference. Due to PR, few if any are going to come out and say things like "Hey poor people, I got mine; fuck your education / welfare / affordable homes / affordable transport." Nevertheless, we all know that is the aim of some people that Buyetyen is talking about. When I think about how these people behave... yes, I think the evidence clearly suggests intent to destroy public services by hook or by crook.

Some of this then goes to slavery. It's a mistake to think that people are necessarily motivated by wider national glory: people are more likely to relate themselves to those around them and favour the present over the future. So, imagine a developing country. The elites and middle classes (which are much smaller in proportion compared to our Western countries) are often heavily be inclined to preferentially enrich themselves and maintain their privileges over their poor than enact wider, generous reforms which would raise the standards and wealth across the whole country faster in the long run. In a way, this is also what corruption represents: individuals harming the whole for short term personal gain. So there clearly is an appetite for things like slavery, even if the overall effect for a nation is negative. Slavery is perhaps particularly pernicious, of course, because the slaves have no say to influence public opinion.

Next, the argument that the whole lost out due to slavery does not really address the fact that certain demographic groups - primarily, of course, the slaves - were especially heavily affected. Plus that these disadvantages reverberate through the system many generations after slavery itself ends in all sorts of ways. Without even racism and discrimination, these include lack of family (heritable) wealth, low social standing and networking, lower resources for personal development, fewer beneficial social traditions, etc. all of which impair attainment. Pointing to those who did come from disadvantaged backgrounds to success should not blind us to the vast majority that palpably did not. Specific reparations are a very tricky issue, but some form of social program above the norm to alleviate disadvantage hardly seems outrageous.