Funny events in anti-woke world

[Silvanus]

Because I support many of their politics. And because alternative (KO) is so much worse. Especially when I see with how much aggresion, contempt and dehumanization zealous opponents of PiS treat anyone who is not sharing their hate (and even more when they hypocritically claim that this is PiS who "spread hate and divides people") and how much tof their opinions are based on pure misinformation.

The anti-abortion, anti-IVF, anti-LGBT PiS isn't "divisive"? The ones who advocated employment discrimination against gay people? The ones who wanted to ban religious buildings... but only from religions they don't like?

Pull the other one.

In terms of democratic standards, they're also the ones who wanted the President to rule by decree and bypass parliament, and for the dismantling of regulatory bodies that could investigate their spending.

 

[Adeptus]

"The anti-abortion, anti-IVF, anti-LGBT PiS isn't "divisive"?"
Of course that PiS is divisive. Absolutely any political party is divisive. Absolutely any stance in any important matter is divisive. Being pro IV or abortionF is juast as divisive, as being anti it. Division are natural. They don;t exist only where all opposition is exterminated. But when followers of one party spread such hate and contempt as followers of KO towards followers and PiS, simultanously screaming that this is PiS who is divisive - and only PiS - and that this is very bad thing, it is pure hypocrisy.

"The ones who advocated employment discrimination against gay people? The ones who wanted to ban religious buildings... but only from religions they don't like?"

Can You specify, because I am not sure about what are You writing? Especially second one. Only thing I found is that one member of county council in Jarocin claimed that he wants to ban mosques. And it ended on his statement. He did not make any actual effort to ban them, nobody in PiS shown support for him, there was never any serious discussion on banning mosques in Poland. If one controversial stament without any real-life consequences, made by member of the county council is for You some main evidence of evilness of PiS, than its evilness must be quite insignificant.
But is possible that opposition exagerrated this insignificant incident in foreign media, claiming that "PiS wants to ban mosques in Poland!". It would be in their style.

When we are speaking about "advocated eployment discimination against gay people" - once again, can You be more precise? But If You meant that some PiS members claimed that private employer should be able to decide who he wants or not wants to employ in his private business - sorry, I agree with that absolutely. No matter if it refers to gays, straights, atheist, catholics or anybody.

"In terms of democratic standards, they're also the ones who wanted the President to rule by decree and bypass parliament"

As above - can You be more precise? Polish President has some prerogatives which can be performed according to his discretion, without need for parliament approved. They are granted by Polish Constitution (and now, they were not introduceed to this Constitution by PiS). Many heads of states, including uncontested democracies, has such prerogatives. And tthiis is typical tactic of KO - when anyone connected to PiS does something absolutely legal and even typical, KO scream, outrightly lying, thath it is illegal - and many people without deeper knowledge about legal system believes them, because they are sccreaming loud. And any attempt to explain causes reaction"oooo, you are defending PiS, you must be brainwashed fanatic or even paid troll, nope, I will not even tak a look at your "arguments".
But if You claim that PiS wanted President no to just use some of his prerogatives, but permanently rule country withouc parliament consent, that I don;t know what are You talking about at all. Once again - be more precise, please. But i would not be surprised if it was another fake spread by opposition.

"and for the dismantling of regulatory bodies that could investigate their spending"
Once again - can You be more precise? PiS actually established Central Anticorruption Bureau. And yes, many times it was conducting proceedings or even arresting PiS members, when they commited corrupt acts.

 

[Silvanus]

Can You specify [...] once again, can You be more precise? [...] As above - can You be more precise? [...] Once again - can You be more precise?

 

[Adeptus]

Sorry, but it is not my fault that all Your accusations are very vague, and each of them needs to be precised, if we want to discuss them in good will. Do we want?

 

[Silvanus]

Sorry, but it is not my fault that all Your accusations are very vague, and each of them needs to be precised, if we want to discuss them in good will. Do we want?

A wall of text with fuzzy dismissals and vague handwaving isn't good faith. You know what the accusations refer to and you haven't properly addressed them, despite the sheer length of that post.

 

[Adeptus]

"A wall of text with fuzzy dismissals and vague handwaving isn't good faith"

Sorry, but Your accusations were fuzzy and vague. And I tried as best as I could guess what they refer and answer it.

"You know what the accusations refer to and you haven't properly addressed them, despite the sheer length of that post"

Nope, I don't know, so I can't properly adress them. Maybe I will be able to, if You - I know that You dislike that word - precise them. I understand if it is difficult for You to do it with all them at once. so You can do it just with one. To simplify things, I will ask You some questions to signal, what I should know to properly adress Your accusation.

"The ones who wanted to ban religious buildings... but only from religions they don't like?"

What do You mean by it?

Did any member of the PiS, apart from the one guy from Jarocin county I already mentioned, expressed willingness to ban religious buildings? If that so, who (s)he was and can You quote his/her claim or give any source?
Were any draft of the legislative act banning religious buildings made? Were possibility of making such draft even discussed?
Has anyone been banned in practice from building a religious building? If that so, can You give source or at least some... any details?
If by "religious buildings" You meant "mosques", are You aware that in the Poland there is significant community of Muslims which is obviously allowed to use existing mosques and build new ones? Do You have any examples when they were harrased by Polish authorities or their freedom of religion was being violated in any way?

 

[BrawlMan]

@Adeptus
Look, I'm not here start anything. I've had my disagreements with Silvanus, but he does not cause trouble, nor has unreasonable arguments. If you want to talk further, then private message (on second thought, it won't let me private message you for some reason) me or talk to me on the actual forum. Not on my profile. Look, just came here and I don't know you enough yet. At the same time, my intention is not to upset any body at all nor for the sake of it. If you want to explain your side of things, then feel free to do so.

 

[Adeptus]

Yes, I can't send private message too. Sorry, I think that this "write something" window when I am looking at someone's profile is way to start private conversation. My mistake, sorry.

"Silvanus, but he does not cause trouble, nor has unreasonable arguments"
Sorry, but his arguments in this thread were... not as much as unreasonable, but extremely vague and therefore unsubstantive. I can not even honestly rate evaluate if they are reasonable, because I can't really know to what cthey are supposed refer to.

 

[Satinavian]

Personally not a fan of PiS either. And not just because the issues with LBGT and various minorities. They are really bad at climate politics, having pushed and defended coal for many years (even if that finally seems to stop).
And they are quite nationalistic and seem to everytime a problem arises to blame it either on the EU or Germany, often with rather dubious arguments.
But painting Poland as the small poor unfairly treated country that basically stands alone and is only defended by PiS gives them the votes. They even manifacture such controversies if none arise naturally.

 

[Adeptus]

And they are quite nationalistic and seem to everytime a problem arises to blame it either on the EU or Germany, often with rather dubious arguments.
But painting Poland as the small poor unfairly treated country that basically stands alone and is only defended by PiS gives them the votes. They even manifacture such controversies if none arise naturally.

Sometimes these arguments are very dubious. But very often they are obviously true.
See for example cas of the Turów mine.
The Czechs sued Poland in the EU court, claiming that coal mining in the Polish Turów mine threatens the purity of Czech groundwater. The EU court immediately banned the operation of the mine as a safeguard for the duration of the proceedings until the judgment is issued (and this may take a really long time). the Polish government has indicated that this is unfeasible because 1) the mine provides work for the entire area and 2) without coal from the mine there may be problems with maintaining the operation of the Polish energy system. At the same time, the Polish government initiated negotiations with the Czech Republic and took steps to ensure that mining would not affect water. The Czechs found the Polish actions satisfactory and withdrew their complaint. But the EU court did not accept this and continues to impose penalties on Poland. Which is especially egregious knowing that there are similar German coal mines in the same area. But hey, we can't tell that UE favourizes Germany and treats Poland worse. Nope. This is an absurd. Because... reasons!

Yes, authorities of EU and Germany very often really act to the detriment of Poland. But whenever PiS points at it, it is handwaved without any consideration by anti-PiS media as "propaganda". BTW, it is obviously untrue that PiS shows EU and Germany as some main enemies of Poland. Critique of Russia is much, much more common and harsh. But anti-PiS prefer to ignore whenever PiS members criticize Russia and call for/take actions against Russia, simultanously highlighting any conflict between Polish goverment and UE/Germany, to create impression that PiS is "Pro-Russian, anti-European".

"They are really bad at climate politics, having pushed and defended coal for many years (even if that finally seems to stop)"
Coal mining is important source of jobs in Poland. Coal is basis of the Polish energetic system. PiS goverment actively try to develop alternatives for coal, e.g. developing program of small nuclear reactors in coopearation with USA or running programs which help people to change their olf-fashioned coal furnaces into something more modern, but it is long-term process. It is easy for rich western countries to demand from Poland "dump coal now, immediately, for the good of the Planet!!!" and ignoring that such sudden actions will be catastrophical for the Polish economy and society.

"But painting Poland as the small poor unfairly treated country that basically stands alone and is only defended by PiS gives them the votes"

But Poland is very often unfairly treated. In reality. Dismissing it on the basis "If PiS says it, it is obviously untrue, because so" is unfair.

"And not just because the issues with LBGT and various minorities"

Many of this issues are exaggerated or outright fabricated. Like this "PiS wants to ban non-catholic religious buildings" rumor which Silvanus wrote about, but was unable to elaborate (because there is nothing to elaborate about). Or "LGBT free zones". Or situation on the border with Belarus.

 

[Satinavian]

Sometimes these arguments are very dubious. But very often they are obviously true.

I am not saying that everytime Poland has an issue wit its neighbors it is in the wrong. Regularly having some issues is normal. All the other EU countries also have regularly disagreements between them.

What is different is that the PiS is politicising them to appeal to patriotism and mobilize its voters. That is what most other parties and gouvernments in Europe don't do. They discuss it and find a compromise. Most, not all. PiS is not completely alone in using this trick unfortunately.

It is in some ways similar to the blustering of certain British politicians before Brexit.

But Poland is very often unfairly treated. In reality

Occasianally yes. But regularly, more than all the other countries in the EU ? It really really does not look like that from outside Poland.

Coal mining is important source of jobs in Poland.

Yes. Which was true for many other countries/regions as well. They all had to give it up. Sure, that hurts. And i am not singling PiS out here, most other European countries have parties dragging their feet with climate transition as well. But as that is a very important topic for me, it ruins my opinion of all of them and PiS is just part of this group.

But anti-PiS prefer to ignore whenever PiS members criticize Russia and call for/take actions against Russia, simultanously highlighting any conflict between Polish goverment and UE/Germany, to create impression that PiS is "Pro-Russian, anti-European".

Not really. I can't remember anyone ever calling PiS "pro-Russian". People very much do note the difference between PiS e.g. and Orbans Fidez. Or even Germanies SPD for that matter.

As for "anti-European", well, yes. Like Germanies AFD, Frances Rassemblement National or Italys Five Stars. Most European countries have at least one prominent eurosceptic party.

 

[Adeptus]

"Not really. I can't remember anyone ever calling PiS "pro-Russian". People very much do note the difference between PiS e.g. and Orbans Fidez. Or even Germanies SPD for that matter"
It is nice that this lie is not spread abroad, but in Poland "PiS are Putin's lapdogs!!!" is one of the main themes in anti-PiS fandom. Which is truly ridiculous, because being pro-Russian is absolutely last thing PiS can be accused for, but most anti-PiS haters use reasoning like "Putin is evil, and PiS is evil. Therefore PiS and Putin must be working together. It is impossible for PiS to be against Putin, because it will be good, and admitting that PiS has any good feature is unacceptable!".
Just search in the Twitter/X phrase "PiS Pachołki Putina" and You will see millions of examples. I know that You will probably not believe me, but it is not like right-wingers have monopoly on conspiracy theories.

"But regularly, more than all the other countries in the EU ? It really really does not look like that from outside Poland"
Obviously, yes. And yes, it is obvious that from outside of Poland it is not as much visible.

"But as that is a very important topic for me, it ruins my opinion of all of them and PiS is just part of this group."
OK. But there is difference between not supporting some party because of the difference in views, and treating its members (and voters) as retarded fascists.

 

[Adeptus]

BTW, I wrote that coal mining is not only important source of jobs. It is basis of our energetical system. Immediate dumping of it would have catasthropical result for our economy and society. I am not taking about "some companies would have slightly lesser profits" results, but rather "full paralysis of the country" results. Of course it is possible this is acceptable sacrifice for You in the name of decarbonization, but definitely not for me. So sorry, I will be evil PiS voter still.

 

[Satinavian]

BTW, I wrote that coal mining is not only important source of jobs. It is basis of our energetical system. Immediate dumping of it would have catasthropical result for our economy and society. I am not taking about "some companies would have slightly lesser profits" results, but rather "full paralysis of the country" results. Of course it is possible this is acceptable sacrifice for You in the name of decarbonization, but definitely not for me. So sorry, I will be evil PiS voter still.

The demand would not have been to shut it all down instantly and without an alternative. No country did so.

The demand would have been to continually build up that alternative so that you can finally switch. The Kyoto climate conference was 25 years ago. If people had actually acted properly, we all would have switched without any difficulties by now. But no, some people tried to keep coal alive as long as possible. And gas and oil as well.


That coal is still the basis of your energetical system is the problem and the utter failure of your gouvernments over the last decades.

 

[Adeptus]

"The demand would not have been to shut it all down instantly and without an alternative. No country did so"
But it was exactly like that in the case of important mine in Turów I described. UE court demanded immediate shutdown. Sorry, but You are just ignoring the facts.


"That coal is still the basis of your energetical system is the problem and the utter failure of your gouvernments over the last decades"
Possible. Still, previous goverment Have not done nothing about it. PiS at least tries, by projects like nuclear plants and CCS. So using it as accusation specifically against PiS is plainly unjust.


I see that Silvanus observes this discussion. So there is hope that he will precise his vague, unfounded accusations and answer my questions concerning them, as honesty demands?

Silvanus,
What do you mean, when You claim that PiS "wanted to ban religious buildings... but only from religions they don't like"?
Did any member of the PiS, apart from the one guy from Jarocin county I already mentioned, expressed willingness to ban religious buildings? If that so, who (s)he was and can You quote his/her claim or give any source?
Were any draft of the legislative act banning religious buildings made? Were possibility of making such draft even discussed?
Has anyone been banned in practice from building a religious building? If that so, can You give source or at least some... any details?
If by "religious buildings" You meant "mosques", are You aware that in the Poland there is significant community of Muslims which is obviously allowed to use existing mosques and build new ones? Do You have any examples when they were harrased by Polish authorities or their freedom of religion was being violated in any way?

 

[SilentPony]

So I am legit starting to believe the "Ineffectiveness of Council" defense is truly what Trump is doing in the DC. Turns out his lawyer who attempted to file an appeal motion on the gag order? ...yeah, not a member of the bar. He forgot to file the paperwork to be able to practice law in DC.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/embarrassing-d-c-court-flags-144517742.html

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

 

[SilentPony]

 

[BrawlMan]

What a biatch. Can someone please pimp slap her a million times and it was a punch?

 

[crimson5pheonix]