Gabe Newell: Yes, We're Still Working on Half-Life 2: Episode 3

[AceDiamond]

I really just don't understand why people keep asking anyone from Valve about the PS3. Are there actually people unsure of their opinion? They never say anything new or at all interesting; it just serves to distress people on the internet. I'm sure if people stopped asking, they'd stopped saying things. Or at least it'd stopped being reported.

It's kind of like how in grade school people get easily teased about things people know that bug them. In this case everyone in the gaming press loves to ask PS3-related questions to the Valve staff just because they know it will inevitably piss off the easily baited Sony fans, which in turn will piss off the Valve fans, and so on.

 

[Jumplion]

Condense

The FFVII on N64 with Square to "put up or shut up" fails because the N64 was technologically inferior than the PS1 mainly because of the cartriges. With this situation, VALVe is refusing to develop for a console that is superior, storage media wise anyway (DVD9s vs. Blu-Ray).

While I don't doubt that FFVII could have been on N64, could have happened who knows, they went with the technologically superior product. Your analogy fails because the N64 and PS3 are not comparable in this argument, technologically wise.

You're letting your bitterness over Sony get the better of you here, have you read my previous post quoting you? VALVe can do whatever they want, it's not going to be easy to learn a completely new platform, but that's what many other developers have done for years and generations. If they don't want to work with it, fine, but if they do then just keep at it and they'll be good in no time.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm "butthurt", it seems that you're the one who's digging up old grudges.

 

[Medic Heavy]

Coming from a PS3/Valve PC fan boy (Yes they exist):


I believe Valve should stick with what it's familiar with. Just like Insomniac should stick with what it's familiar with.

Episode 3 should take as long as it takes. But god i hope it's much longer then both Episode 1 and 2 combined.

And oh yes, Portal 2. I loved the first one though it had no replay value.


This whole debate is starting to get as ugly as Halo Vs. Half life.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

I'm sorry my friends are programmers the ps3 is not easy to program for due its strange architecture also very hard to port too.

it's been said before Sucker Punch, Insomniac and Naughty Dog all have no issues coding for it and neither do a lot of other people.

like Gabe i'll probly say your friends aren't that good at coding and probly find it hard to code for stuff like linux as well

 

[SaintWaldo]

What did Sony do to everybody? Sleep with their sisters?

no Gabe worked for m$ and drank too much of their kool-aid. everyone says how great he is but frankly he's not and shows how badly he actually is at coding.

That's been my take on Mr. Newell ever since this stuff started. I'm glad you mention iD, Carmack, and Q2. It seems to me that Mr. Newell has issues with not being as good at the maths as Carmak (most of us aren't), and is demonstrating the _worst_ way to deal with such issues: denying there's a problem.

If you convince yourself the problem isn't worth solving, you get to claim that solving the problem would waste your time. That neither changes the item's definition as a problem, nor solves it. How this is clever escapes me.

 

[murphy7801]

I'm sorry my friends are programmers the ps3 is not easy to program for due its strange architecture also very hard to port too.

Well, how long have they been programing? How long have they programed for PS3 and how frequently? Are they professionals or do they do it as a hobby? Are they in a major company or a small one or any at all? I'm sure with some time, pateince, and work it would be just as easy as any other console. Practice makes perfect after all, code isn't something you learn in a day.

Yes but you forget that coding taking extra time and people to get a version running on the ps3 not that its some impossible task just not good business sense.

 

[Jumplion]

I'm sorry my friends are programmers the ps3 is not easy to program for due its strange architecture also very hard to port too.

Well, how long have they been programing? How long have they programed for PS3 and how frequently? Are they professionals or do they do it as a hobby? Are they in a major company or a small one or any at all? I'm sure with some time, pateince, and work it would be just as easy as any other console. Practice makes perfect after all, code isn't something you learn in a day.

Yes but you forget that coding taking extra time and people to get a version running on the ps3 not that its some impossible task just not good business sense.

From what I could barely gather from your sentence, you're saying that it's not good business sense to put a game on the PS3? It makes as much business sense as coding and programing for any other console. There are certain factors in making a game, mainly the overall budget. You want your game to reach as broad an audience as possible, and if you can put the game on all three platforms and expect the profit to get past the used budget then you're good. Doesn't matter what console it's on, just so long as people buy it.

 

[AceDiamond]

I'm sorry my friends are programmers the ps3 is not easy to program for due its strange architecture also very hard to port too.

Well, how long have they been programing? How long have they programed for PS3 and how frequently? Are they professionals or do they do it as a hobby? Are they in a major company or a small one or any at all? I'm sure with some time, pateince, and work it would be just as easy as any other console. Practice makes perfect after all, code isn't something you learn in a day.

Yes but you forget that coding taking extra time and people to get a version running on the ps3 not that its some impossible task just not good business sense.

From what I could barely gather from your sentence, you're saying that it's not good business sense to put a game on the PS3? It makes as much business sense as coding and programing for any other console. There are certain factors in making a game, mainly the overall budget. You want your game to reach as broad an audience as possible, and if you can put the game on all three platforms and expect the profit to get past the used budget then you're good. Doesn't matter what console it's on, just so long as people buy it.

Jumplion they aren't a huge company like EA or even Bioware, as I pointed out earlier. They don't just have people lying about doing nothing that could be assigned to the "PS3 feasibility project". Valve has 190 people, who are currently working on the following

HL2: Episode 3
TF2
L4D
L4D2

and possibly other projects that haven't even been mentioned. They do not have the resources to split up their time and manpower even further to get these working on the PS3. That is the reason EA had to do it in the first place with the PS3 version of the Orange Box, and that is the reason they're not doing it now. It doesn't make sense, especially when you consider the PS3 version sold the least number of copies.

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/36952/The-Orange-Box-1-5-Million-Console-Sales-Significantly-More-On-PC

Doug Lombari: We were very happy with both the Xbox 360 and PS3 sales. I think the Xbox 360 version did just over a million, while the PS3 [released later in December] version did a few hundred thousand copies. So I think when all is said and done, The Orange Box will have sold about 1.5 million copies on the console, which is great. But the game's PC sales were much stronger.

(boldface mine)

He later goes on to point out that sales of the PC version were far and above both of those (roughly 3 million sold at the time that article was written). So, what's making them the most money? PC market. Unquestionably. Why fix what isn't broke? Yes, I'll admit that it was a bit crass of Gabe to say the PS3 is hard to develop for but he's right. It is. The only evidence contrary to it is companies who are longstanding partners of Sony. And with a company already working on 4 games simultaneously (yes I know, two of them are already out but they keep putting out addons for them), it just isn't logistically or financially sensible for them to take a chance on the PS3.

No I know why SRW will never come, I wonder why G Generation is never going to Show, because thats ALL Gundam, every license is owned by Bamco, For that matter the Gihren's Ambition games have never been released in english and they are SRPGs on a World Conflict scale. It makes no sense outside of "Were keeping all the good games to ourselves"

Well it could be because gundam games do not perform well stateside. It's much the same problem with Square and Front Mission. Front Mission is awesome but the games just do not sell that well most of the time when they come to the US. I'm considering it luck that we're even getting another Front Mission game here, then again it's an action game so that might be why.

 

[Jumplion]

Condense

Okay.

VALVe doesn't have much motive to make PS3 games, okay. That's certainly a factor in why they don't favor the PS3 as much. There are various reasons to port a game to many consoles, but if the work outweighs the income then there is no point.

You're trying to paint me as this ignorant PS3 fanboy who knows nothing about what's going on, slathering everyone and acting like a 5 year old in a vacum self obsessed with "Sony rulez, SONY RUELZ!!@!@$#" while typing obsceneties at anyone who disagrees. I assure you, I'm hardly taking this argument as seriously as you're making it out to be.

There are various reasons to make a game for all consoles, the main one being getting the game to as many people as possible. Obviously, with VALVe looking at that history, the customer is more to blame for VALVe not supporting the PS3 rather than VALVe.

But at the same time, VALVe is trying to make these completely useless excuses out of a much simpler reason. "It's too hard to work with!", well they hardly worked with it, and thank you for dutifully noting that the Orange Box was ported by EA. "It's complexity hinders development!" well that is true when you don't know something new, same thing as before. "We don't want to give PS3 owners the shortend of the stick" they hardly support the 360 as a platform, it might as well be "Give console owners the shortend of the stick".

One thing that I think we can all agree on (hopefully) is that ever since Gabe said "I think the PS3 is a waste of time" their PR department have been trying to clean up the shit that he spewed since then. All of these excuses, their reasoning, their ignorance, yadda yadda yadda, it's all useless. All they need to say is "No, we're not developing for PS3" and if they end up developing for it HOOPLAH, so what? Developers lie like that all the time!

Also, it's also partially the interviewers/people's response to all this. People keep asking over and over again "What do you think about the PS3?" and the like, and thus the PR keeps on trying to make up these random excuses from a simple subject.

VALVe can do whatever they like, but bottom line, if they ever do develop for the PS3, it's put up or shut up. They hardly have the sufficient experiences with the hardware, but like I've said dozens of times, if they just work at it like they always do then they can effectively bring even more people to their franchises.

Various other companies, not just 1st party companies, have said many things in favor of the Ps3's hardware, most prominently they said it "gives us much more freedom than other consoles to work with". It's not "harder" to work with. It's. Just. Different.

 

[mjhhiv]

I personally share Newell's opinion of the PS3.

So, you also find it difficult to develop games for?

 

[cleverlymadeup]

What did Sony do to everybody? Sleep with their sisters?

no Gabe worked for m$ and drank too much of their kool-aid. everyone says how great he is but frankly he's not and shows how badly he actually is at coding.

That's been my take on Mr. Newell ever since this stuff started. I'm glad you mention iD, Carmack, and Q2. It seems to me that Mr. Newell has issues with not being as good at the maths as Carmak (most of us aren't), and is demonstrating the _worst_ way to deal with such issues: denying there's a problem.

If you convince yourself the problem isn't worth solving, you get to claim that solving the problem would waste your time. That neither changes the item's definition as a problem, nor solves it. How this is clever escapes me.

yup it's the m$ creedo, there's been a few nasty bugs they refuse to patch such as activex as a whole. since he used to work for them, he follows what they taught him

yes i know The Carmack is a coding god. he is simply amazing at what he does and makes everyone else look bad and designs rockets at the same time

I'm sorry my friends are programmers the ps3 is not easy to program for due its strange architecture also very hard to port too.

Well, how long have they been programing? How long have they programed for PS3 and how frequently? Are they professionals or do they do it as a hobby? Are they in a major company or a small one or any at all? I'm sure with some time, pateince, and work it would be just as easy as any other console. Practice makes perfect after all, code isn't something you learn in a day.

Yes but you forget that coding taking extra time and people to get a version running on the ps3 not that its some impossible task just not good business sense.

wow that's a dodge and a half question, you didn't even answer him, you just repeated what you had said before. so i'll say your friends aren't very good at coding at all and haven't used anything more than visual studio

i mean i bet if i put vi in front of them and told them to code something in C, they'd start to cry.

 

[AceDiamond]

Condense

Condensation [/joke]

And yet on the other hand there are many non-ValvE instances of people complaining that the PS3 is too complex from a development standpoint. Hell people have been saying that since before it was released [http://www.edge-online.com/news/ps3-complexity-could-hinder-yields] It's not just them, ValvE just happens to be the latest. (and I don't think I have to remind anybody of the ported abominations that were foisted on the PS3 in the first few months of release). And seriously, you don't see me telling the 180 employees of Insomniac to get off their lazy asses and make something for the PC do you? Do you see me declaring Brian Hastings to be a loudmouthed idiot who has his head up his ass just because he provided a top 10 list on why the PS3 will win this console generation, a list, by the way, that was made two years ago? [http://www.n4g.com/ps3/News-32115.aspx] No, you don't see me doing these things because I'm being rational (and seriously I'm not calling him out, I'm just pointing out that he made some predictions 2 years ago and...obviously it didn't pan out)

And since I'm in such a rational mood, let me put things in perspective here from ValvE's VP of marketing, Doug Lombardi

http://play.tm/news/25498/valve-dodge-ps3-development/

"Until we have the ability to get a PS3 team together, until we find the people who want to come to Valve or who are at Valve who want to work on that, I don't really see us moving to that platform,"

For the record, that's the polite way of saying that it's a waste of time for them. Thereby vindicating Newell's comment that you can't seem to just get your head around. Meanwhile I just took some time to find a more in-depth reason. And a good reason it is. Especially when you consider that despite having thousands of people at its disposal (granted, I do not know how many of them are coders), EA couldn't make a good enough port of The Orange Box.

If I really had the time and patience to continue in this increasingly stubborn battle of factoids and whatever else we've salvaged from the net, I would've found all the articles by all developers commenting on how easy or hard it is for them to do PS3 development, and juxtapose it against the relative staff sizes. I think you'd be surprised to find the variety of those who complained were smaller developers (Karl Hilton from the studio formerly known as Free Radical, for example, said the PS3 architecture screwed over Haze, but then again Haze killed the company so maybe that isn't a good example). If smaller developers are having trouble getting the necessary talent to develop for the PS3, then that, is a problem. Know why? Because even with giant titles like MGS4 and...many others (sorry I'm sure you can helpfully fill me in on third-party PS3 megahits, It's 5AM and I've drawn a blank so big it can only fit on a blu-ray disc), the PS3 is still in third place and is still sucking wind from its disastrous first 3 years. And there could be many reasons for that, and i'm not talking about the ones where Sony's advertising arm can be blamed. It either boils down to

1. The PS3 is too hard for smaller devs to develop for because of time and money constraints
or
2. The amount of people who know how to develop for the PS3 and are not working for larger developers is too small.

And do I know the answer for certain? No I don't. It is after all, merely a theory.

Also I would be less inclined to think you're letting your inner fanboy seep through if not for a few obvious events in the past couple of months, but that's another time and place.

 

[murphy7801]

What did Sony do to everybody? Sleep with their sisters?

no Gabe worked for m$ and drank too much of their kool-aid. everyone says how great he is but frankly he's not and shows how badly he actually is at coding.

That's been my take on Mr. Newell ever since this stuff started. I'm glad you mention iD, Carmack, and Q2. It seems to me that Mr. Newell has issues with not being as good at the maths as Carmak (most of us aren't), and is demonstrating the _worst_ way to deal with such issues: denying there's a problem.

If you convince yourself the problem isn't worth solving, you get to claim that solving the problem would waste your time. That neither changes the item's definition as a problem, nor solves it. How this is clever escapes me.

yup it's the m$ creedo, there's been a few nasty bugs they refuse to patch such as activex as a whole. since he used to work for them, he follows what they taught him

yes i know The Carmack is a coding god. he is simply amazing at what he does and makes everyone else look bad and designs rockets at the same time

I'm sorry my friends are programmers the ps3 is not easy to program for due its strange architecture also very hard to port too.

Well, how long have they been programing? How long have they programed for PS3 and how frequently? Are they professionals or do they do it as a hobby? Are they in a major company or a small one or any at all? I'm sure with some time, pateince, and work it would be just as easy as any other console. Practice makes perfect after all, code isn't something you learn in a day.

Yes but you forget that coding taking extra time and people to get a version running on the ps3 not that its some impossible task just not good business sense.

wow that's a dodge and a half question, you didn't even answer him, you just repeated what you had said before. so i'll say your friends aren't very good at coding at all and haven't used anything more than visual studio

i mean i bet if i put vi in front of them and told them to code something in C, they'd start to cry.

They mainly use python or cuda they do programming for robotics.

 

[Lukeydoodly]

and didn't have the capability to deliver them content like they could on the 360 or PC.

Is that a joke?

 

[Crowser]

I gotta say, this man is acting quite stupid. I love Valve as a developer but this is just lazy, clearly there is a market for Valve games on the PS3 and this is just kicking a business opportunity in the teeth when it is trying to smile for you. Suck it up and learn; adapt. Thats how businesses make money and without change...well they don't ever get to the head of the pack.

 

[orangebandguy]

The Charger looks like great fun to play as, shame they didn't show the Spitter itself.

 

[Sparrow]

Christ. This game better be good. I can't stand all the whining right now, and it'd only get worse if the game blowed.

 

[Jumplion]

And yet on the other hand there are many non-ValvE instances of people complaining that the PS3 is too complex from a development standpoint. Hell people have been saying that since before it was released [http://www.edge-online.com/news/ps3-complexity-could-hinder-yields] It's not just them, ValvE just happens to be the latest. (and I don't think I have to remind anybody of the ported abominations that were foisted on the PS3 in the first few months of release).

And there are just as many saying that the PS3 gives them freedom, and some even say it's easy to work with, both 3rd party and 1st party. Is the PS3 complex at first? Yes, I can fully admit to that. But many other companies, big and small, have developed for the PS3 easily or not and there's no reason why VALVe can't so long as they put the time and effort they do in all their games.

And seriously, you don't see me telling the 180 employees of Insomniac to get off their lazy asses and make something for the PC do you? Do you see me declaring Brian Hastings to be a loudmouthed idiot who has his head up his ass just because he provided a top 10 list on why the PS3 will win this console generation, a list, by the way, that was made two years ago? [http://www.n4g.com/ps3/News-32115.aspx]

Um, because Insomniac is owned by Sony? And whoever Brian Hastings is, whatever he did is just his opinion, hardly something to get froth at the mouth about. Employee size is irrelevant because there are a few "indie" developers on the PS3 that get along just fine (Q-Games, Japan *something*, Thatgamecompany, ect....)

No, you don't see me doing these things because I'm being rational (and seriously I'm not calling him out, I'm just pointing out that he made some predictions 2 years ago and...obviously it didn't pan out)

Once again, you're trying to paint me as the dastardly-bastardly evaul Zony guy who doesn't know what he's talking about. You're taking this debate much too seriously, I'm hardly being as serious as you think I am. In fact, I find it very enjoyable to debate with you again, it's been a while since the last time.

And Brian's predictions are just that; Predictions. They're not facts, they're opinoins and predictions. Micheal Patcher makes all sorts of predictions, who cares if they come out true or if it's a bunch of wank-off?

And since I'm in such a rational mood, let me put things in perspective here from ValvE's VP of marketing, Doug Lombardi

http://play.tm/news/25498/valve-dodge-ps3-development/

"Until we have the ability to get a PS3 team together, until we find the people who want to come to Valve or who are at Valve who want to work on that, I don't really see us moving to that platform,"

I'm sure they could hire a couple dozen or so people who'd be more than willing to work with them *coughcoughCounterStrikecoughcoughTeamFortresscoughcoughPortalcoughcough* [small]That's a debate for another time [/small]

For the record, that's the polite way of saying that it's a waste of time for them. Thereby vindicating Newell's comment that you can't seem to just get your head around. Meanwhile I just took some time to find a more in-depth reason. And a good reason it is. Especially when you consider that despite having thousands of people at its disposal (granted, I do not know how many of them are coders), EA couldn't make a good enough port of The Orange Box.

Why? Why are you making this all serious? I understand perfectly why VALVe is reluctant to work with the PS3, as far as they've worked with it's is still too complex, they havn't had much succees on the platform, I get it.

But many of their excuses I do not get. A problem with what they're trying to tell everyone is that they've had minimal experience with the PS3 and they gave EA to port OB (which, by the way, I've heard works fine). They say it's too hard and that they don't want to work with it, but how can they criticize a platform that they've rarely had any experience with?

I suppose you could say, I understand their actions but I don't understand their reasoning. Or something like that, if it makes any sense whatsoever.

If I really had the time and patience to continue in this increasingly stubborn battle of factoids and whatever else we've salvaged from the net, I would've found all the articles by all developers commenting on how easy or hard it is for them to do PS3 development, and juxtapose it against the relative staff sizes. I think you'd be surprised to find the variety of those who complained were smaller developers (Karl Hilton from the studio formerly known as Free Radical, for example, said the PS3 architecture screwed over Haze, but then again Haze killed the company so maybe that isn't a good example).

Why is this a "stubborn" battle of factoids? You're being unneccesarily hostile and I have half-a-mind to report you. And here, you admit that there are developers on both sides of this argument, HOORAY! But there are still plenty of small developers, (Insomniac, Sucker Punch only has like 90 freakin' people working, and indie developers like Thatgamecompany) that have a fine time with the PS3 as well.

If smaller developers are having trouble getting the necessary talent to develop for the PS3, then that, is a problem. Know why? Because even with giant titles like MGS4 and...many others (sorry I'm sure you can helpfully fill me in on third-party PS3 megahits, It's 5AM and I've drawn a blank so big it can only fit on a blu-ray disc), the PS3 is still in third place and is still sucking wind from its disastrous first 3 years.

People exagerate the position the PS3 is in. I'll bring a chart in if you want it, but the PS3 has sold mostly consistently over the 360 in it's first 2 years of sale compared to the 360 in it's first 2 years of sale. While I don't know if Sony is making money off of them or not, in terms of position and sales it's not as bad as people make it out to be. If everything was compared to the Wii/DS, we'd all think the 360 is selling piss poorly as well.

And there could be many reasons for that, and i'm not talking about the ones where Sony's advertising arm can be blamed. It either boils down to

Oy, that's something we can agree on, their marketing department is terrible. But we're getting way off hand anyway.

Also I would be less inclined to think you're letting your inner fanboy seep through if not for a few obvious events in the past couple of months, but that's another time and place.

What obvious events in what months? I would sincerely like to know, while I can't deny that I do get the fanboy the better of me, a few weeks ago Nilcypher sent me a PM'd warning to tone it down a bit. Since then I've taken a little break in between postings and such, I think it's helped me calm down. Besides, the only thing that's relevant in this debate is all the posts in this thread, nothing else matters. Honestly, I feel rather insulted that you can't suspend your disbelief and just talk to me like a human being, instead of what you see as a stubborn, unmovable, Sony-fanboi.