Gabe Newell: Yes, We're Still Working on Half-Life 2: Episode 3

[Jonny49]

A team fortress 2 comic? A TV show? A movie?! Hell yes!!!

 

[cleverlymadeup]

They mainly use python or cuda they do programming for robotics.

ahhh yes cause scripting isn't real programming, i'm sure given vi and C to make something they would cry and find it difficult

 

[Woe Is You]

Feh, emacs is where it's at.

 

[murphy7801]

They mainly use python or cuda they do programming for robotics.

ahhh yes cause scripting isn't real programming, i'm sure given vi and C to make something they would cry and find it difficult

What you mean c as c++ as as in c sharp as in cuda.

 

[Cliff_m85]

I really cannot believe this. What happened to you guys? Did Gabe Newell punch you in the street or something?

Look, all I'm going to say on this is that every single Valve game I've played has been nothing less then awesome. As far as I'm aware, none of their games have had less than stellar receptions. They are one of the few developers consistently turning out amazing games, and all you guys can do is *****? If Valve say that they need more time to make Episode 3, then I'll bow to their wisdom, as they're the ones who've been turning out awesome games for the last god-knows-how-long.

Christ, why can't you guys go whine about EA or Activision? A least they have a history of churning out shit.

Because we don't have higher expectations for EA or Activision. Although I must give those companies credit for atleast releasing screenshots, trailers, and designs during development.

Just like "Duke Nukem Forever" did, we saw screenshots during production and even a few trailers.


How much has been released about "HL2:E3"?

 

[Deleric]

Oh. Phew. Thought they forgot about it or something.

 

[AceDiamond]

And there are just as many saying that the PS3 gives them freedom, and some even say it's easy to work with, both 3rd party and 1st party. Is the PS3 complex at first? Yes, I can fully admit to that. But many other companies, big and small, have developed for the PS3 easily or not and there's no reason why VALVe can't so long as they put the time and effort they do in all their games.

I just gave you the reasons (to recap: not enough skilled PS3 devs, not enough employees, not enough time, and not viewed as financially viable to them). And seeing as how later on in your counterpoint you go on to say you understand, I'm a bit confused by this.

Um, because Insomniac is owned by Sony? And whoever Brian Hastings is, whatever he did is just his opinion, hardly something to get froth at the mouth about. Employee size is irrelevant because there are a few "indie" developers on the PS3 that get along just fine (Q-Games, Japan *something*, Thatgamecompany, ect....)

Well if Insomniac is owned by Sony I think it's very short-sighted of you to keep going on and on about how easy it is for them. Of course it is. And again that's my whole point all along that comparing Valve against a first(second?)-party dev isn't very fair. Also while I'm very glad that you finally decided to give me other studio names as evidence, I have to take some issue with you mentioning ones that again, only work exclusively on the PS3, with most of the ones you mentioned being relegated to making stuff for release on the Playstation Network (not that there's anything wrong with that but it's not a fair comparison). And Q-Games is not indie. Meanwhile your entire argument is based around whether or not Valve should be able to divide themselves up to the point they can make games for the PC and the PS3 without a hit in quality.

Secondly, Brian Hastings is (was?) the Cheif Creative Officer of Insomniac. That's why I brought him up. I even gave you a link so that you could see that and understand the point I was trying to make (i.e., executives say things! You may not agree with them! Oh well!) And the fact that you defend his right to express an opinion over Newell's is exactly my problem here, unserious or no.

I'm sure they could hire a couple dozen or so people who'd be more than willing to work with them *coughcoughCounterStrikecoughcoughTeamFortresscoughcoughPortalcoughcough* [small]That's a debate for another time [/small]

So your solution to this problem would be to hire PC mod developers, hand them a PS3 dev kit and say "go at it?" It doesn't work that way.

Why? Why are you making this all serious? I understand perfectly why VALVe is reluctant to work with the PS3, as far as they've worked with it's is still too complex, they havn't had much succees on the platform, I get it.

You didn't seem to get it at the start of this post. Bad joke, I know.

But many of their excuses I do not get. A problem with what they're trying to tell everyone is that they've had minimal experience with the PS3 and they gave EA to port OB (which, by the way, I've heard works fine). They say it's too hard and that they don't want to work with it, but how can they criticize a platform that they've rarely had any experience with?

I suppose you could say, I understand their actions but I don't understand their reasoning. Or something like that, if it makes any sense whatsoever.

Well that's fair enough. The problem being though is that neither you or I know whether or not, at any time, Valve ever tried to work with a PS3 dev kit themselves, or explore the possibility. I'm saying there is a chance that maybe a failed venture in this resulted in them having EA handle the PS3 port of The Orange Box. But again, I do not know. I don't really think any of us do.

Why is this a "stubborn" battle of factoids? You're being unneccesarily hostile and I have half-a-mind to report you. And here, you admit that there are developers on both sides of this argument, HOORAY! But there are still plenty of small developers, (Insomniac, Sucker Punch only has like 90 freakin' people working, and indie developers like Thatgamecompany) that have a fine time with the PS3 as well.

I believe Insomniac was my example-du-jour as a developer doing exclusive work for the PS3 while being only the size of Valve. Sucker Punch is the exact same story with less people, and I already covered Thatgamecompany. My point is, that you're only proving my point in that you shouldn't be asking out of Valve what isn't being asked out of those companies.

As to why this is stubborn, well I'm not exactly innocent either now am I?

Also I'm not being hostile, I'm not the one who keeps saying people should "put up or shut up".

People exagerate the position the PS3 is in. I'll bring a chart in if you want it, but the PS3 has sold mostly consistently over the 360 in it's first 2 years of sale compared to the 360 in it's first 2 years of sale. While I don't know if Sony is making money off of them or not, in terms of position and sales it's not as bad as people make it out to be. If everything was compared to the Wii/DS, we'd all think the 360 is selling piss poorly as well.

Except for the fact that Sony posted its first loss in 14 years. A big loss [http://tinycomb.com/2009/05/14/sony-loss/]. One that included their games division taking an 18% hit. That is not speculative, that is fact. They have been hurt this generation for a multitude of reasons. Also I'm interested in that chart only because I want to see who made it and what kind of numbers fudging was done besides the obvious. After all, comparing the years 2005 and 2006 for one console against the years of 2006 and 2007 for another is misleading. Compare the same years, not the same timespan. And furthermore, as of recent history, the PS3 still has not outsold the 360, so whatever advantage it had in the comparison you have was negligible. My offered evidence is this page [http://www.vgchartz.com/]

And I'm not exaggerating when I say they are in third place. They simply are. It's not me gloating about it or saying they're in a distant third. They're just in third and it's not where one expected they'd be since they were the ones touting...well everything. The point I was trying to make was that, perhaps there is truth to the complexity of developing for it and if smaller third parties (that's third parties) that do not work exclusively on the PS3 cannot develop well for it, well then it's just hurting everyone.

Honestly, I feel rather insulted that you can't suspend your disbelief and just talk to me like a human being, instead of what you see as a stubborn, unmovable, Sony-fanboi.

Again I don't know what disbelief there is to suspend. You took offense to someone saying that PS3 development for their company was a waste of time, I pointed out how that could be, and that's that. Granted it's gotten deeper than that, maybe some feelings were hurt. And I'm honestly trying to talk to you as a person but the gross amount of inconsistencies in your arguments and disparate matchups are making me have...trouble. I'm sorry if you feel I'm bullying you but I'm honestly just trying to make you see that what you are half-asking and half-demanding out of Valve is unrealistic in that you are only expecting it out of them for reasons I cannot fathom.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

They mainly use python or cuda they do programming for robotics.

ahhh yes cause scripting isn't real programming, i'm sure given vi and C to make something they would cry and find it difficult

What you mean c as c++ as as in c sharp as in cuda.

no i mean C as in the language C, the one before C++

also cuda and C# are 2 different things

i could be even worse and say assmebly and vi

 

[Citrus]

The self-entitlement in this thread is blinding.

 

[Jumplion]

Again I don't know what disbelief there is to suspend. You took offense to someone saying that PS3 development for their company was a waste of time, I pointed out how that could be, and that's that. Granted it's gotten deeper than that, maybe some feelings were hurt. And I'm honestly trying to talk to you as a person but the gross amount of inconsistencies in your arguments and disparate matchups are making me have...trouble. I'm sorry if you feel I'm bullying you but I'm honestly just trying to make you see that what you are half-asking and half-demanding out of Valve is unrealistic in that you are only expecting it out of them for reasons I cannot fathom.

I'm not demanding anything from VALVe.

What's so unrealistic about learning something different that was at first hard to do? What's so unrealistic about just saying "We don't intend to develop for PS3" and leave it at that? What's so unrealistic about just going at it and just trying harder?

I don't care what VALVe does, they can ignore the PS3 as much as they want, but they can't exactly say much about the console if they've had minimal experience with the console. What's so unreasonable about them giving some effort to make their game for a broader audience?

 

[murphy7801]

They mainly use python or cuda they do programming for robotics.

ahhh yes cause scripting isn't real programming, i'm sure given vi and C to make something they would cry and find it difficult

What you mean c as c++ as as in c sharp as in cuda.

no i mean C as in the language C, the one before C++

also cuda and C# are 2 different things

i could be even worse and say assmebly and vi

Yes im aware of the difference of cuda and c# are quite different more think of release dates. So what you like things with lots of procedural stuff ?

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Yes im aware of the difference of cuda and c# are quite different more think of release dates. So what you like things with lots of procedural stuff ?

you obviously have no idea what i'm talking about or anything about computer languages

probly why you just assume that the ps3 is hard to code for

 

[Leyvin]

So Valve hate PS3, can't blame them. Hard to make the games for it, barely any difference (as far as I can tell) compared to 360, are there any game developers that like the PS3?

All 1st Party developers, predictably. Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sucker Punch, Guerrilla Games, ect... all say that the PS3 gives them unprecedented freedom with programing. And other companies, Konami, Capcom, EA, Ubisoft, ect... have said similar things.

I'll say what I always say to VALVe in this situation, put up or shut up. I don't blame them for having trouble with the PS3, they're a computer company, when have they ever specified in consoles? They hardly support the 360 as they claim to, they've only had like, what, one update for the Orange Box since it was released. Same with PS3 version of Orange Box.

VALVe has hardly done anything with the PS3, they let EA port The Orange Box to the PS3, they didn't do anything with it except for a quick fix update when everyone was complaining about server issues. They can't expect to be PS3 Mastahs overnight, and it's silly to expect them to either. If they don't want to work with the PS3, then fine, don't work with it. But if they do, they're going to have to put some effort and work into it. Just like, you know, every single thing they did before. Their PR with this whole PS3 thing is a mess, I think.

Many have said it provides freedom, but honestly I think Carmack hit the nail on the head a few years ago with his Quakecon speech.

The program with the Playstation 3 is that while it has remarkable power and potencial, it will take years for programmers to get proficient enough to actually make use of it.

This is the exact issue that many developers, particularly the 1st party ones edge away from. I mean they can't exactly turn around to the guys who give them paycheques and be like "oh yeah this console sucks to develop on", they have to be enthusiastic about it to a degree.

Even Epic games who've made the Unreal 3 Engine, basically the benchmark for multiplatform tools have said that they prefer to focus on the Windows and Xbox 360 platforms. Microsoft don't own them, they're still an independant company; who have more experience with every platform than probably any other development company. This to me kinda makes things more interesting, especially given for their own titles they've decided to drop large PS3 titles.

I mean it is needless to say the Unreal 3 Engine looks truely Epic no matter the platform it's on... the guys have does awesome work with it, and it's a freaking dream to work and modify to your needs; leaves no doubt why it's this generations Middleware solution. Still the fact that the company themselves have previously mentioned how much they were disappointed limiting the engine to 30fps on the PS3 over the 60fps+ possible on the other platforms, that tends to send up red flags; no?

 

[Jack Da Ripper]

he is just supporting a fellow small local company (Microsoft) against the evil Japanese Sony Empire...

lol

 

[Noliving]

And there are just as many saying that the PS3 gives them freedom, and some even say it's easy to work with, both 3rd party and 1st party. Is the PS3 complex at first? Yes, I can fully admit to that. But many other companies, big and small, have developed for the PS3 easily or not and there's no reason why VALVe can't so long as they put the time and effort they do in all their games.

I would like to see those saying the ps3 gives them freedom and or easy to work with. I have searched though bing, google, yahoo search sites and have yet to come across a developer that has said that.

Your also clearly not a programmer. Something that is difficult to program for even after you know how to program it will always be difficult unless you come up with some tricks. Saying that something isn't difficult its just different isn't really true when it comes to programming. It's pretty much almost all the time either easier or its more difficult.

Also I think your underestimating how much time valve has actually spent looking at the white papers for the ps3.

 

[Jumplion]

I would like to see those saying the ps3 gives them freedom and or easy to work with. I have searched though bing, google, yahoo search sites and have yet to come across a developer that has said that.

I'll try my best to find some quotes, but I am sure that there are many developers who say

Your also clearly not a programmer. Something that is difficult to program for even after you know how to program it will always be difficult unless you come up with some tricks.

So if I, someone who has not programed beyond BB Code, start learning C++ or something, it will still be hard for me 2 years of active programing? If that's the case, we need to rework how we code.

Saying that something isn't difficult its just different isn't really true when it comes to programming.

So, it's true for pretty much everything else in life (Riding a bike, learning to spell, speak, ect...) but it's not true in programing?

It's pretty much almost all the time either easier or its more difficult.

Then something is seriously wrong with how people program nowadays. If it's either easy all the time or hard all the time, we need to start thinking about optimization and crap.

Also I think your underestimating how much time valve has actually spent looking at the white papers for the ps3.

And pray, do tell, how much time has VALVe spent looking on the white papers of the PS3? Papers aren't hardware last I checked.

Also, I am greatly honored that I am your first post

 

[Ancientgamer]

Your also clearly not a programmer. Something that is difficult to program for even after you know how to program it will always be difficult unless you come up with some tricks.

So if I, someone who has not programed beyond BB Code, start learning C++ or something, it will still be hard for me 2 years of active programing? If that's the case, we need to rework how we code.

Saying that something isn't difficult its just different isn't really true when it comes to programming.

So, it's true for pretty much everything else in life (Riding a bike, learning to spell, speak, ect...) but it's not true in programing?

It's pretty much almost all the time either easier or its more difficult.

Then something is seriously wrong with how people program nowadays. If it's either easy all the time or hard all the time, we need to start thinking about optimization and crap.

Strictly speaking, programing is justing learning another language, where you have to have %100 correct grammar to get anything done. Just like most languages around the world, it has alot to do with acclimation (People native to Iceland won't find Icelandic hard.) And a degree of objective complexity. (Icelandic is obscenely complicated, commonly considered the most difficult language in the world.)

The objective standpoint is more prominent in coding, where specific structure, syntax, ect is not just a nuisance but vital. Or having needlessly esoteric, sloppy, and lengthy structure increases chances of failure.

but,

I plainly have no idea what the PS3 would be like to code for. If it's just different, as I personally think mr. newell comments indicate, then it would be a similar conundrum to how it's generally much harder for a person who speaks english to learn an eastern language like Japanese, than it would be to learn a similar romantic language like german.

I don't know what the PS3's like of course, but I thought I'd clarify that point of programming, since it seems to be so contentious in these discussions.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

Oh well. Atleast they're working on it.