Game of Thrones Author Comments on Lack of Racial Diversity in Series

[Colour Scientist]

Inb4
Anecdotal examples of a few notable non-Caucasians in medieval Europe

Yeah because Westeros is so true to medieval Europe.

Dragons? Fine.
People coming back from the dead? Makes sense.
More people of colour in important roles? Don't be so unrealistic.

Nice false equivalence there. So you're going to fault them for creating a world inspired by Medieval mythology and Medieval culture? Last time I checked, shit like dragons were part of that and make sense in the context of the world. As does magic and other fantastical shit like that.

I'm not faulting the books, I'm just saying that being historically accurate is a pretty weak defence in this context.

Commenting or questioning lack of diversity doesn't equate with accusations of racism/sexism or demanding the author change the content of the work, it's the same as any other kind of critique. When you create and publish a book/game/film, you open yourself up to critique. Literary criticism is an entire discipline, people analyse prose, themes, character development and imagery. Scrutinising ethnic/sexual diversity can be part of this. No one is forcing Martin's hand but, having read and loved the books, the question posed in the OP is a fair one.

I still don't get why people feel so threatened by this.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

You're forgetting the fictional universe he created was heavily inspired by the Medieval period. Sure, he could of just said fuck it and created a universe where every race and sexuality is equally represented but he wanted to make a world that was the same as the real world but with fantasy elements added in. Hell, the fantasy elements aren't even that widespread and the world would have basically been Medieval Earth without them. As people mentioned, Westeros is basically England and Essos is inspired by a whole mish mosh of different cultures.

So making Westoros populated by something other than the lily-white brigade would ruin the realness? Considering Westeros has several significant differences to England, skin tone should be the least of anyone's concern when it comes to depicting Europe, but with some fantasy thrown in.

Not that it matters, my point was that the post I was responding to was ridiculous in its comparison, because I don't care how heavily inspired you are ("I was heavily inspired by" also sounds a lot like "I'm not creative" after a certain point), you're not beholden to history. That said, heavy inspiration doesn't really absolve him of "fantasy-Europeans in the west with their ideals of honor and nobility, and the savage, slaving, sleazy, heretic-burning, amoral everyone else over in the east" thing.

And in the exact same way as he is not beholden to it, he is not beholden to put people of any race in his story. He could make the entire cast black or white or have them all wield giant metal dildos. He doesn't even have to use humans because he isn't beholden to it!

The thing is, he chooses to. And he has every damn right to do so. Martin wanted to write a story that was based on Mediveal Europe/England around the time of the War of the Roses and also use the mythology of the time. And so he decided to be beholden to it because he wanted to.

Also, that last sentence.... holy shit. Seriously the last few episodes I can recall involved a man torturing someone so much their mind broke and then got him to serve them. After that, he used said man against his own people to get them to surrender then flayed them all alive. I believe a certain someone ended up in a duel with a man who had raped and murdered various people but was still being championed as a knight and... well... we saw how that ended up. I recall a variety of betrayals and even a lovely murder or two. There was that kid, remember, who was gonna be king? Yeah. He was... a touch insane. But where did this all happen? "in the west with their ideals of honour and nobility"? Yep. Honour and nobility alright!

 

[Olas]

You know, I used to think it was a progressive idea that artists should be free to create what they want without having to worry about who they anger or offend, and a regressive idea that that artists should alter or censor their work to conform to certain societal values. But it increasingly feels like things are turned upside down. It's wrong to use nasty words like "retarded" liberally and fiction writers should have their work scrutinized to see if it's in any way offensive to certain groups or doesn't include the full checklist of diversity we now expect from every work of fiction.

I guess it's just easier to judge things by these simplified standards than to actually critically evaluate the messages and ideas the author is trying to convey and judge those.

 

[endtherapture]

This is why we don't need social justice warriors.

Who cares if there's no black characters?
1. There are black characters
2. It's a primarily medieval European setting, why would there be black characters in medieval europe?

 

[Genocidicles]

Yeah because Westeros is so true to medieval Europe.

Dragons? Fine.
People coming back from the dead? Makes sense.
More people of colour in important roles? Don't be so unrealistic.

Westeros has a European climate though, so the people there would be white skinned (aside from Dorne). The technology of the setting doesn't allow for easy immigration like we see today either.

Now, lets look at the fantasy elements: Dragons, zombies, evil snow creatures and a little magic.

How would they effect how difficult it is to immigrate with medieval technology? They wouldn't, unless a load of them clung to the underside of a dragon or something.

So, like other people have said, it's realistic to only see a few brown faces in the major trading hubs, if that.

 

[Loonyyy]

I really don't 'get' this kind of stuff.

Maybe it's because I enjoy learning about history, or most of my friends/(ex)mates aren't white, or something else...

But how can you ***** about Egypt being whitewashed in Hollywood films, given, real history of who lived there.

Then, without ANY irony, ***** that there's a lack of 'diversity' in a historical piece, set in the whitest of the white lands.

I mean...the hell?

Yes, I always loved the blood magic, Dragons, and zombies in my history of the middle ages class.

I mean, the hell? Did you attend Mr. Garrison's class or something? I guess we'd all better be ready for Magneto's rise to prominence, along with Transformers falling to earth and Dinosaurs being resurrected. And I guess these are all more likely than any form of diversity.

 

[A-D.]

You're forgetting the fictional universe he created was heavily inspired by the Medieval period. Sure, he could of just said fuck it and created a universe where every race and sexuality is equally represented but he wanted to make a world that was the same as the real world but with fantasy elements added in. Hell, the fantasy elements aren't even that widespread and the world would have basically been Medieval Earth without them. As people mentioned, Westeros is basically England and Essos is inspired by a whole mish mosh of different cultures.

So making Westoros populated by something other than the lily-white brigade would ruin the realness? Considering Westeros has several significant differences to England, skin tone should be the least of anyone's concern when it comes to depicting Europe, but with some fantasy thrown in.

Not that it matters, my point was that the post I was responding to was ridiculous in its comparison, because I don't care how heavily inspired you are ("I was heavily inspired by" also sounds a lot like "I'm not creative" after a certain point), you're not beholden to history. That said, heavy inspiration doesn't really absolve him of "fantasy-Europeans in the west with their ideals of honor and nobility, and the savage, slaving, sleazy, heretic-burning, amoral everyone else over in the east" thing.

Actually, it would ruin the realness. Not for the sake of color though but for the sake of geographic reasons. Notice that most of Westeros is essentially in a northern european climate. The further north you go, the whiter the people get because the areas are colder. I mean compare say anyone from the North, for the sake of argument lets compare Sansa Stark to Margery Tyrell who is from the Reach which is further south. Sansa is very pale where as Margery is more fair-skinned, white yes but there is a difference in pigmentation. Now go a little further south to Dorne which is alot of desert and sun, suddenly you have people who have an even darker complexion compared to their northern brethren, cultural differences we can leave out because it doesnt really matter there.

Now go even further south, Basilisk Isles, the Summer Isles, now you get really dark-skinned people because the areas are tropical, alot of heat, sun and jungle. Essos is in between these two to a degree as the northern-most part of Essos is never seen which would include Ibben which is about on the same hemisphere-level as the Vale, so we could argue the climate is colder there potentially. The Dothraki are steppe-people, they are essentially a mixture of Cumans and Mongols who live in the steppe regions of Essos which is warm and dry and sunny. If you took all the people from westeros and placed them in the Dothraki Sea, or the Summer Isles, what do you think would happen within say 5 generations? Would they still be the same white as they are now? Its alot more about the conditions of the area they live in, rather than anything to do with culture directly. Lets consider for a second here also the Unsullied who are essentially a Slave-army from Slaver's bay, which true to its namesake buys and sells slaves and of course raids its neighbors for them.

Who are the closest neighbors to Slaver's Bay geographically? Basilisk Isles, Ass'hai and so forth, they dont get their slaves from Westeros, or Bravos, or Lys even. Hell most of the post-Valyrian Freehold is directly based on Zoroastrian Persia, which by the way was the first monotheistic religion in the world. So not having black people in Westeros unless there is actually a reason for them to be there makes sense. And im not just making this argument specifically against you, but if i had to quote everyone who argued that Martin was lazy or something because he didnt include more people of color the post would be so long that Kross might have a heart-attack.

 

[Groenteman]

Ya know, everytime I read something like one of these 'This medieval Europe analog is not as racialy diverse as north America! My feelings are extremely hurt and you are a RACIST!'... its comming from a black person. Its never a latino, east-asian, central asian, arab or slavic.

And im not talking about actual valid complaints of inequity, just these complete off-the-wall comments. This self-victimizing, Jesse Jackson-style shakedown, guilt abusing scumbaggery seems to have taken on a life of its own and now has people genuinely believing this garbage. This does not help anyone, it hurts actual progress, it makes it harder for minorities with ACTUAL problems to be takenn seriously and further convinces anyone who thinks ALL complaints of inequity are a load of whining of his viewpoint.

Jesse Jackson and this anonymous GoT fan screw over their own minotiry and society as a whole. Do not give in to them.

Knee Jerk reaction much? It's just a question, people shouldn't be threatened by questions. I was also curious as to why there were so few non-criminal/non servant black people in the series.

Questions are rarely just questions, especialy ones laced with as much passive agression and wrong presumptions as this.

Not to mention you can disguise anything as a question. Accusations, insults, unpleasant insinuations. 'So where were you last friday between 15:00 and 16:00?' or 'Nice car you got there, wonder how you could afford that with your income'.

Much to learn about communication you have, young padawan!

But to answer your question: The story is based on medieval europe. Making it as diverse as modern western society would be highly unnatural, its not how societies in that state of developement look like. In reality they were vastly more abrasive to anything foreign you would be unable to attain a respectable job as someone looking foreign as well. Not to mention it wouldnt be a very attractive place to travel to in the first place.

 

[K12]

I think a series which is all about power through family lineages can be forgiven for having a racially unbalanced cast. Non-white people in Westeros are likely to be recent immigrants so having them as Lords of castles several thousands of years old wouldn't fit.

That being said the fact that in the show the Unsullied seem to all be black is a bit jarring when the the Unsullied in the books are from anywhere that people could be kidnapped from. A visual shorthand of "black people = slaves/ former slaves" isn't a great idea.

It's very clearly a story set in a racist world rather than a racist story.

The unsullied were all raised as children, children which are mostly found in Essos, which tends to be an area that's predominately composed of darker skinned people. I doubt Westeros or Essos is concerned with race considering you see people of all colors in leadership roles.

Do you see people of all colours in leadership roles? In Westeros?

Westeros is all about status through bloodlines and all the major families are related somewhere along the line so it would make sense if all the important people would be the same race (though not necessarily white of course). The Dornish are looked down on for having Rhoynish blood (basically mediterranean) and Varys is looked down on as a foreigner (amongst other things) so I doubt that racism isn't the general rule (even if it's not aggressive)

Essos has a lot of variety and I think it is fairly race blind because it functions as a freemen/ slave society and status is mostly about money. Anyone can get money (in theory). The Qartheen are actually whiter than most of the people of Westeros (in the book they are often referred to as "Milk men" because of their pale skin). It's only the people of the Basilisk Isles and the Summer Isles who are actually black.

 

[Phasmal]

I thought there were quite a few people of different races in the books, but that hasn't translated to the show very well, which is probably the bummer.

I did watch the show before reading the books, though, so I do tend to think of the show characters when I'm reading the books.

Hopefully going to Dorne (I'm not sure where the show is up to, I haven't seen season 4 but I'm guessing from what I've heard that they're about there), will be more inclusive there but let's face it probably not.
TV gets weird about having not-white people. It's annoying.

I've probably turned into a hispter but I prefer the books now. >.>

 

[fezgod]

Some people are just fools. They take the concept of diversity and run along with it until it has been stretched all out of shape.

Diversity in media is very simple, whether we're talking about films, tv, books or games. You can't attempt to represent every single sexual orientation or racial minority in existence; what you can do is choose a variety of diverse viewpoints and do each one proper justice.

This is so true. I think what people forget about Game of Thrones is that, while the characters may not be ethnically diverse, there is a tremendous amount of diversity within the characters themselves. We have female characters who aren't just badass fighters, we have gay and bisexual characters, etc. Also, consider this, what was the last television or book series you encountered where a handicapped character is the most prominent character? I bet you can find tons of shows that have ethnically diverse cast but a few (if any) have a character like Tyrion

 

[Loonyyy]

Ya know, everytime I read something like one of these 'This medieval Europe analog is not as racialy diverse as north America! My feelings are extremely hurt and you are a RACIST!'... its comming from a black person. Its never a latino, east-asian, central asian, arab or slavic.

And im not talking about actual valid complaints of inequity, just these complete off-the-wall comments. This self-victimizing, Jesse Jackson-style shakedown, guilt abusing scumbaggery seems to have taken on a life of its own and now has people genuinely believing this garbage. This does not help anyone, it hurts actual progress, it makes it harder for minorities with ACTUAL problems to be takenn seriously and further convinces anyone who thinks ALL complaints of inequity are a load of whining of his viewpoint.

Jesse Jackson and this anonymous GoT fan screw over their own minotiry and society as a whole. Do not give in to them.

If you're worried that Martin is being called a racist, you really shouldn't pen a racist argument against criticism. It's just really self defeating, particularly if anyone were to make your mistake and decide that Martin, or others who don't mind the setting are just as bad.

And why is a POC fan not allowed to be sad about something they like and comment on the lack of inclusivity? That hardly seems fair, people can say whatever they like about the books, or the show, or Martin (And they do), unless it's about racial inclusivity, in which case you're sabotaging your own race, and engaging in "scumbaggery".

 

[Redd the Sock]

Inb4
Anecdotal examples of a few notable non-Caucasians in medieval Europe

Yeah because Westeros is so true to medieval Europe.

Dragons? Fine.
People coming back from the dead? Makes sense.
More people of colour in important roles? Don't be so unrealistic.

Nice false equivalence there. So you're going to fault them for creating a world inspired by Medieval mythology and Medieval culture? Last time I checked, shit like dragons were part of that and make sense in the context of the world. As does magic and other fantastical shit like that.

I'm not faulting the books, I'm just saying that being historically accurate is a pretty weak defence in this context.

Commenting or questioning lack of diversity doesn't equate with accusations of racism/sexism or demanding the author change the content of the work, it's the same as any other kind of critique. When you create and publish a book/game/film, you open yourself up to critique. Literary criticism is an entire discipline, people analyse prose, themes, character development and imagery. Scrutinising ethnic/sexual diversity can be part of this. No one is forcing Martin's hand but, having read and loved the books, the question posed in the OP is a fair one.

I still don't get why people feel so threatened by this.

Well lets ask a similarly structured question: why did he write medieval fantasy instead of say steampunk, sci-fi, contemporary modern, or anything else? Imagine you put a lot of work into making a fantasy setting only to have some pissant fan of steampunk came along asking why he did it with the subtext of the fact that the work is not steampunk somehow makes it lessor. Yes, it's fiction he can do whatever he imagines, he could make everyone green skined if he felt like it, but he's trying to create his story, not your story, and acting like something not meeting your tailor made expectations is not fair criticism as it implies it's your work not his.

I mean, if we give too much weight to this kind of criticism we what would happen when other people come in for all the parts they hate. My mother alone would have the show and books stripped of sex, nudity, violence, non PG language and hateful politics, on top of making them purely episodic because she hates any show or book that can't be told in a single sitting. There just comes a point where you have to realize that works of fiction aren't custom made, and while that does not mean you can't criticize, if you get told no, you kind of have to shut up or accept the spoiled brat moniker. You got the answer. You don't have to like it, but you can't equate the fact he CAN tell the story the way you want with he SHOULD do that. Pushing the issue beyond that shows no respect for the author, and a level of anger that not everyone puts the same weight on diversity that you do.

This is not to stop the topic, but the topic needs to be gears toward making people want what you do because they see it as in their best interests, not throwing a passive tantrum because someone that could have done what you wanted decided to do something else.

 

[Wolf Hagen]

I sometimes start to feel sorry for that man, because of his pushy and demanding fans.
he prolly wrote the firstb few books with success, but not that kinda fame, and now that it got translated to TV, he has this weird mixture of almost religious followers and on the other hand the pushy and demanding crowd, who tell him to eat and exercise properly (because they want their series to end, not making that dudes life better, cause you know, he's such an unhealthy and poor sob. ), criticize that so many of their favorite characters die (in a book series that is infamous for the "Everyone can die" trope and now the usual doorknockers that wanna talk into his writing craftmanship, because they don't have the full rainbow of diversity in it yet.

Because apparently some gay dudes, a handicapped kid and his metally handicapped helper / guard, an incest family, a bunch of Hunnic stile Folks that get controlled by a feminine Kickass Lady, some more "head of state" Ladys, an Eunuch, a hedonistic and witty dwarf, out of wedlock Kids, a fat slightly nerdy bookworm (and thats all just season one) still clearly arent the rainbow THEY want to see.

I really feel sorry for him sometimes. o.o

 

[Sanderpower]

I'd actually really like to see more POV people of different cultures outside of Westeros. One of the neat things the POV system can do is show events from the perspective of different people of different cultures. We get alot of that from the different individual areas in Westeros but not a lot from places outside of it.

It doesn't matter that in the real world a lot of black people were slaves. How does that have any relevance to the fictional world of Game of Thrones where dragons and ice zombies exist? Dark skinned people being the "stock people" for slaves isn't exactly an encouraging thing to see in a series.

Were the Unsullied black? I always made them out to be more Middle-Eastern (since most of the Africa analogue seems to be the Summer Isles). May be wrong though.

It doesn't matter that in the real world a lot of black people were slaves. How does that have any relevance to the fictional world of Game of Thrones where dragons and ice zombies exist? Dark skinned people being the "stock people" for slaves isn't exactly an encouraging thing to see in a series.

But it doesn't make it any less accurate. I'm sorry that Game of Thrones couldn't fit your ideal, where all the slaves were white people, or maybe that there weren't any saves at all, thus cutting out a major plot point that easily fills at least a third of the show.

I never said that all white people were slaves or there shouldn't be slaves at all. You're making a very huge assumption right there. I'm saying why do most of the slaves need to be black/dark skinned and why do all the black/dark skinned characters in the show have to be servants or criminals? It looks odd, and the justification you give it doesn't make any sense. Why can't there be more diverse dark skinned characters?

Context. Again, it has to make sense within the context of the story. It makes sense that the 3 "free" dark-skinned characters, in a medieval setting, are 1. A freed slave, now a general of an army, 2. Again freed slave, now a teacher/cultural advisor, and 3. A pirate. You are the one making huge assumptions as to the type of setting George R.R. Martin is presenting us with. This is not a modern or postmodern idealized equal society. This world is a society that is cruel, often unjust, where the most barbaric tribes are separated from the most civilized by a giant wall or an ocean.

I would just like to point out as to prior posts, EGYPT is not a part of EUROPE. So using that as a reference as to the nationalities present therein at the time of the War of the Roses, an event wholly taking place in ENGLAND is a falsehood. Again, present me with a historical record of Egyptians, Libyans, Afghanis, Prussians within the noble houses fighting during this period and I'll consider myself corrected. Until then, the namedropping just doesn't help your argument. Martin is not going to rewrite his books for the sake of being PC and I suspect that we'd be having this exact same argument if HBO started including diverse characters purely for the sake of diversity. Read it, don't read it, watch it, don't watch it, I don't care. There's still millions of us out there that will gladly.

I will still watch Game of Thrones, I was just asking a question as to why all the dark skinned people had to come from low-status backgrounds. It seems everybody here kneee jerked and acted as if we were asking for "50% black lords and 50% white lords". The sheer amount of knee jerk that i'm seeing here is absurd.

People are acting as if I think the show is racist and pretty much accusing me of being some sort of tumblr, Jesee Jackon following, Social Justice Warrior who hates White People.

You know what forget it. If I can't even ask a freaking question without people trying to label me then i'll just not say anything.

 

[AstaresPanda]

I sometimes start to feel sorry for that man, because of his pushy and demanding fans.
he prolly wrote the firstb few books with success, but not that kinda fame, and now that it got translated to TV, he has this weird mixture of almost religious followers and on the other hand the pushy and demanding crowd, who tell him to eat and exercise properly (because they want their series to end, not making that dudes life better, cause you know, he's such an unhealthy and poor sob. ), criticize that so many of their favorite characters die (in a book series that is infamous for the "Everyone can die" trope and now the usual doorknockers that wanna talk into his writing craftmanship, because they don't have the full rainbow of diversity in it yet.

Because apparently some gay dudes, a handicapped kid and his metally handicapped helper / guard, an incest family, a bunch of Hunnic stile Folks that get controlled by a feminine Kickass Lady, some more "head of state" Ladys, an Eunuch, a hedonistic and witty dwarf, out of wedlock Kids, a fat slightly nerdy bookworm (and thats all just season one) still clearly arent the rainbow THEY want to see.

I really feel sorry for him sometimes. o.o

yeh what i was about to say pretty much lol. I somtimes think they are watching some other show coz im seeing alot of different people with diff backgrounds etc etc etc. These books are how old ? and only now that its crazy popular do these assholes feel the need...... i dont get the need.

 

[Vegosiux]

Come on, it's epic fantasy. It's expected that the character "Arya" wins the day.

That's better.

I don't understand why people on this site have such trouble with people asking about diversity.
No one said anything about racism, just the typical Escapist thread, over-reacting to accusations that haven't been made.

My problem with this line of threads is that there seems to be a clear discrepancy between the frequency with which ASOIAF books are published and the frequency of the threads about their author.

I mean, I'm being subjective here, but I wouldn't want to be in the news every single week if I wrote a best-selling book series which would then be adapted for TV >.> I need my peace, and quiet, to do nefarious deeds such as eat a lot of cookies...without milk.

Funny you should bring up Jesse Jackson, a guy who's usually paid to give his opinion. But okay, if the actions of a few paint the majority poorly, doesn't that also hold true of the whites who actually are racist? What about the people who complained that they "made" Rue and her District black in the Hunger Games movie (Spoiler: she was dark-skinned in the books, though I don't think they specifically said "black"). Are white people bad now?

Or does this "reflects poorly" thing only work one way? Because it's generally only applied one way: towards minorities.

Can work both ways, really, but I'd say it depends on the outcomes of their shenanigans. Like that Turkish politician who had the bright idea that women shouldn't be allowed to laugh in public. Now, if he actually gets elected, that would indeed reflect rather poorly on the Turks. If not, then I can say there seems to be enough aversion to his antics that the Turks don't have to openly condemn him, since they obviously decided he's unfit to be in power.

I don't differentiate based on race though, and I just slap complete morons into the "complete morons" column in my cabinet.