Game of Thrones Author Comments on Lack of Racial Diversity in Series

[Groenteman]

Ya know, everytime I read something like one of these 'This medieval Europe analog is not as racialy diverse as north America! My feelings are extremely hurt and you are a RACIST!'... its comming from a black person. Its never a latino, east-asian, central asian, arab or slavic.

And im not talking about actual valid complaints of inequity, just these complete off-the-wall comments. This self-victimizing, Jesse Jackson-style shakedown, guilt abusing scumbaggery seems to have taken on a life of its own and now has people genuinely believing this garbage. This does not help anyone, it hurts actual progress, it makes it harder for minorities with ACTUAL problems to be takenn seriously and further convinces anyone who thinks ALL complaints of inequity are a load of whining of his viewpoint.

Jesse Jackson and this anonymous GoT fan screw over their own minotiry and society as a whole. Do not give in to them.

Knee Jerk reaction much? It's just a question, people shouldn't be threatened by questions. I was also curious as to why there were so few non-criminal/non servant black people in the series.

Questions are rarely just questions, especialy ones laced with as much passive agression and wrong presumptions as this.

Not to mention you can disguise anything as a question. Accusations, insults, unpleasant insinuations. 'So where were you last friday between 15:00 and 16:00?' or 'Nice car you got there, wonder how you could afford that with your income'.

Much to learn about communication you have, young padawan!

But to answer your question: The story is based on medieval europe. Making it as diverse as modern western society would be highly unnatural, its not how societies in that state of developement look like. In reality they were vastly more abrasive to anything foreign you would be unable to attain a respectable job as someone looking foreign as well. Not to mention it wouldnt be a very attractive place to travel to in the first place.

 

[K12]

I think a series which is all about power through family lineages can be forgiven for having a racially unbalanced cast. Non-white people in Westeros are likely to be recent immigrants so having them as Lords of castles several thousands of years old wouldn't fit.

That being said the fact that in the show the Unsullied seem to all be black is a bit jarring when the the Unsullied in the books are from anywhere that people could be kidnapped from. A visual shorthand of "black people = slaves/ former slaves" isn't a great idea.

It's very clearly a story set in a racist world rather than a racist story.

The unsullied were all raised as children, children which are mostly found in Essos, which tends to be an area that's predominately composed of darker skinned people. I doubt Westeros or Essos is concerned with race considering you see people of all colors in leadership roles.

Do you see people of all colours in leadership roles? In Westeros?

Westeros is all about status through bloodlines and all the major families are related somewhere along the line so it would make sense if all the important people would be the same race (though not necessarily white of course). The Dornish are looked down on for having Rhoynish blood (basically mediterranean) and Varys is looked down on as a foreigner (amongst other things) so I doubt that racism isn't the general rule (even if it's not aggressive)

Essos has a lot of variety and I think it is fairly race blind because it functions as a freemen/ slave society and status is mostly about money. Anyone can get money (in theory). The Qartheen are actually whiter than most of the people of Westeros (in the book they are often referred to as "Milk men" because of their pale skin). It's only the people of the Basilisk Isles and the Summer Isles who are actually black.

 

[Phasmal]

I thought there were quite a few people of different races in the books, but that hasn't translated to the show very well, which is probably the bummer.

I did watch the show before reading the books, though, so I do tend to think of the show characters when I'm reading the books.

Hopefully going to Dorne (I'm not sure where the show is up to, I haven't seen season 4 but I'm guessing from what I've heard that they're about there), will be more inclusive there but let's face it probably not.
TV gets weird about having not-white people. It's annoying.

I've probably turned into a hispter but I prefer the books now. >.>

 

[fezgod]

Some people are just fools. They take the concept of diversity and run along with it until it has been stretched all out of shape.

Diversity in media is very simple, whether we're talking about films, tv, books or games. You can't attempt to represent every single sexual orientation or racial minority in existence; what you can do is choose a variety of diverse viewpoints and do each one proper justice.

This is so true. I think what people forget about Game of Thrones is that, while the characters may not be ethnically diverse, there is a tremendous amount of diversity within the characters themselves. We have female characters who aren't just badass fighters, we have gay and bisexual characters, etc. Also, consider this, what was the last television or book series you encountered where a handicapped character is the most prominent character? I bet you can find tons of shows that have ethnically diverse cast but a few (if any) have a character like Tyrion

 

[Loonyyy]

Ya know, everytime I read something like one of these 'This medieval Europe analog is not as racialy diverse as north America! My feelings are extremely hurt and you are a RACIST!'... its comming from a black person. Its never a latino, east-asian, central asian, arab or slavic.

And im not talking about actual valid complaints of inequity, just these complete off-the-wall comments. This self-victimizing, Jesse Jackson-style shakedown, guilt abusing scumbaggery seems to have taken on a life of its own and now has people genuinely believing this garbage. This does not help anyone, it hurts actual progress, it makes it harder for minorities with ACTUAL problems to be takenn seriously and further convinces anyone who thinks ALL complaints of inequity are a load of whining of his viewpoint.

Jesse Jackson and this anonymous GoT fan screw over their own minotiry and society as a whole. Do not give in to them.

If you're worried that Martin is being called a racist, you really shouldn't pen a racist argument against criticism. It's just really self defeating, particularly if anyone were to make your mistake and decide that Martin, or others who don't mind the setting are just as bad.

And why is a POC fan not allowed to be sad about something they like and comment on the lack of inclusivity? That hardly seems fair, people can say whatever they like about the books, or the show, or Martin (And they do), unless it's about racial inclusivity, in which case you're sabotaging your own race, and engaging in "scumbaggery".

 

[Redd the Sock]

Inb4
Anecdotal examples of a few notable non-Caucasians in medieval Europe

Yeah because Westeros is so true to medieval Europe.

Dragons? Fine.
People coming back from the dead? Makes sense.
More people of colour in important roles? Don't be so unrealistic.

Nice false equivalence there. So you're going to fault them for creating a world inspired by Medieval mythology and Medieval culture? Last time I checked, shit like dragons were part of that and make sense in the context of the world. As does magic and other fantastical shit like that.

I'm not faulting the books, I'm just saying that being historically accurate is a pretty weak defence in this context.

Commenting or questioning lack of diversity doesn't equate with accusations of racism/sexism or demanding the author change the content of the work, it's the same as any other kind of critique. When you create and publish a book/game/film, you open yourself up to critique. Literary criticism is an entire discipline, people analyse prose, themes, character development and imagery. Scrutinising ethnic/sexual diversity can be part of this. No one is forcing Martin's hand but, having read and loved the books, the question posed in the OP is a fair one.

I still don't get why people feel so threatened by this.

Well lets ask a similarly structured question: why did he write medieval fantasy instead of say steampunk, sci-fi, contemporary modern, or anything else? Imagine you put a lot of work into making a fantasy setting only to have some pissant fan of steampunk came along asking why he did it with the subtext of the fact that the work is not steampunk somehow makes it lessor. Yes, it's fiction he can do whatever he imagines, he could make everyone green skined if he felt like it, but he's trying to create his story, not your story, and acting like something not meeting your tailor made expectations is not fair criticism as it implies it's your work not his.

I mean, if we give too much weight to this kind of criticism we what would happen when other people come in for all the parts they hate. My mother alone would have the show and books stripped of sex, nudity, violence, non PG language and hateful politics, on top of making them purely episodic because she hates any show or book that can't be told in a single sitting. There just comes a point where you have to realize that works of fiction aren't custom made, and while that does not mean you can't criticize, if you get told no, you kind of have to shut up or accept the spoiled brat moniker. You got the answer. You don't have to like it, but you can't equate the fact he CAN tell the story the way you want with he SHOULD do that. Pushing the issue beyond that shows no respect for the author, and a level of anger that not everyone puts the same weight on diversity that you do.

This is not to stop the topic, but the topic needs to be gears toward making people want what you do because they see it as in their best interests, not throwing a passive tantrum because someone that could have done what you wanted decided to do something else.

 

[Wolf Hagen]

I sometimes start to feel sorry for that man, because of his pushy and demanding fans.
he prolly wrote the firstb few books with success, but not that kinda fame, and now that it got translated to TV, he has this weird mixture of almost religious followers and on the other hand the pushy and demanding crowd, who tell him to eat and exercise properly (because they want their series to end, not making that dudes life better, cause you know, he's such an unhealthy and poor sob. ), criticize that so many of their favorite characters die (in a book series that is infamous for the "Everyone can die" trope and now the usual doorknockers that wanna talk into his writing craftmanship, because they don't have the full rainbow of diversity in it yet.

Because apparently some gay dudes, a handicapped kid and his metally handicapped helper / guard, an incest family, a bunch of Hunnic stile Folks that get controlled by a feminine Kickass Lady, some more "head of state" Ladys, an Eunuch, a hedonistic and witty dwarf, out of wedlock Kids, a fat slightly nerdy bookworm (and thats all just season one) still clearly arent the rainbow THEY want to see.

I really feel sorry for him sometimes. o.o

 

[Sanderpower]

I'd actually really like to see more POV people of different cultures outside of Westeros. One of the neat things the POV system can do is show events from the perspective of different people of different cultures. We get alot of that from the different individual areas in Westeros but not a lot from places outside of it.

It doesn't matter that in the real world a lot of black people were slaves. How does that have any relevance to the fictional world of Game of Thrones where dragons and ice zombies exist? Dark skinned people being the "stock people" for slaves isn't exactly an encouraging thing to see in a series.

Were the Unsullied black? I always made them out to be more Middle-Eastern (since most of the Africa analogue seems to be the Summer Isles). May be wrong though.

It doesn't matter that in the real world a lot of black people were slaves. How does that have any relevance to the fictional world of Game of Thrones where dragons and ice zombies exist? Dark skinned people being the "stock people" for slaves isn't exactly an encouraging thing to see in a series.

But it doesn't make it any less accurate. I'm sorry that Game of Thrones couldn't fit your ideal, where all the slaves were white people, or maybe that there weren't any saves at all, thus cutting out a major plot point that easily fills at least a third of the show.

I never said that all white people were slaves or there shouldn't be slaves at all. You're making a very huge assumption right there. I'm saying why do most of the slaves need to be black/dark skinned and why do all the black/dark skinned characters in the show have to be servants or criminals? It looks odd, and the justification you give it doesn't make any sense. Why can't there be more diverse dark skinned characters?

Context. Again, it has to make sense within the context of the story. It makes sense that the 3 "free" dark-skinned characters, in a medieval setting, are 1. A freed slave, now a general of an army, 2. Again freed slave, now a teacher/cultural advisor, and 3. A pirate. You are the one making huge assumptions as to the type of setting George R.R. Martin is presenting us with. This is not a modern or postmodern idealized equal society. This world is a society that is cruel, often unjust, where the most barbaric tribes are separated from the most civilized by a giant wall or an ocean.

I would just like to point out as to prior posts, EGYPT is not a part of EUROPE. So using that as a reference as to the nationalities present therein at the time of the War of the Roses, an event wholly taking place in ENGLAND is a falsehood. Again, present me with a historical record of Egyptians, Libyans, Afghanis, Prussians within the noble houses fighting during this period and I'll consider myself corrected. Until then, the namedropping just doesn't help your argument. Martin is not going to rewrite his books for the sake of being PC and I suspect that we'd be having this exact same argument if HBO started including diverse characters purely for the sake of diversity. Read it, don't read it, watch it, don't watch it, I don't care. There's still millions of us out there that will gladly.

I will still watch Game of Thrones, I was just asking a question as to why all the dark skinned people had to come from low-status backgrounds. It seems everybody here kneee jerked and acted as if we were asking for "50% black lords and 50% white lords". The sheer amount of knee jerk that i'm seeing here is absurd.

People are acting as if I think the show is racist and pretty much accusing me of being some sort of tumblr, Jesee Jackon following, Social Justice Warrior who hates White People.

You know what forget it. If I can't even ask a freaking question without people trying to label me then i'll just not say anything.

 

[AstaresPanda]

I sometimes start to feel sorry for that man, because of his pushy and demanding fans.
he prolly wrote the firstb few books with success, but not that kinda fame, and now that it got translated to TV, he has this weird mixture of almost religious followers and on the other hand the pushy and demanding crowd, who tell him to eat and exercise properly (because they want their series to end, not making that dudes life better, cause you know, he's such an unhealthy and poor sob. ), criticize that so many of their favorite characters die (in a book series that is infamous for the "Everyone can die" trope and now the usual doorknockers that wanna talk into his writing craftmanship, because they don't have the full rainbow of diversity in it yet.

Because apparently some gay dudes, a handicapped kid and his metally handicapped helper / guard, an incest family, a bunch of Hunnic stile Folks that get controlled by a feminine Kickass Lady, some more "head of state" Ladys, an Eunuch, a hedonistic and witty dwarf, out of wedlock Kids, a fat slightly nerdy bookworm (and thats all just season one) still clearly arent the rainbow THEY want to see.

I really feel sorry for him sometimes. o.o

yeh what i was about to say pretty much lol. I somtimes think they are watching some other show coz im seeing alot of different people with diff backgrounds etc etc etc. These books are how old ? and only now that its crazy popular do these assholes feel the need...... i dont get the need.

 

[Vegosiux]

Come on, it's epic fantasy. It's expected that the character "Arya" wins the day.

That's better.

I don't understand why people on this site have such trouble with people asking about diversity.
No one said anything about racism, just the typical Escapist thread, over-reacting to accusations that haven't been made.

My problem with this line of threads is that there seems to be a clear discrepancy between the frequency with which ASOIAF books are published and the frequency of the threads about their author.

I mean, I'm being subjective here, but I wouldn't want to be in the news every single week if I wrote a best-selling book series which would then be adapted for TV >.> I need my peace, and quiet, to do nefarious deeds such as eat a lot of cookies...without milk.

Funny you should bring up Jesse Jackson, a guy who's usually paid to give his opinion. But okay, if the actions of a few paint the majority poorly, doesn't that also hold true of the whites who actually are racist? What about the people who complained that they "made" Rue and her District black in the Hunger Games movie (Spoiler: she was dark-skinned in the books, though I don't think they specifically said "black"). Are white people bad now?

Or does this "reflects poorly" thing only work one way? Because it's generally only applied one way: towards minorities.

Can work both ways, really, but I'd say it depends on the outcomes of their shenanigans. Like that Turkish politician who had the bright idea that women shouldn't be allowed to laugh in public. Now, if he actually gets elected, that would indeed reflect rather poorly on the Turks. If not, then I can say there seems to be enough aversion to his antics that the Turks don't have to openly condemn him, since they obviously decided he's unfit to be in power.

I don't differentiate based on race though, and I just slap complete morons into the "complete morons" column in my cabinet.

 

[80sboy]

A medieval European setting isn't supposed to have any diversity. Actually to them, white people of different cultures was diverse enough back then. What? There's a Frenchmen in England? What is the world coming to? A black person? They were a thing of myth. Pretty sure a medieval African setting would also be void of whites, as a medieval Asian setting was void of everything but Asians. That's how the world was back then, even with fairy tales and fantasy. I mean... why isn't everyone complaining that there are no black people in LOTR?

 

[Ihateregistering1]

...feel free to hide behind the claim that you're defending artistic integrity and realism.

That's the point: Martin (and the fans of his books) shouldn't have to defend a damn thing. They're Martin's books, and he can make all of the characters talking goats with wings if he so chooses, or he can make every single character a straight white male if he wants. He can make each book be 7000 pages long and just write "all work and no play makes George a dull boy" if he chose to do so, and we choose whether to buy them or not. If lack of "diversity" makes it so you don't want to buy them (or watch the show), ok then, cool beans.

And while the person asking this question didn't tell Martin "you're a racist" they did tell them that "it hurts" that he hasn't made the books the way this person wants them to be. That's passive aggressively trying to get someone to change their own work, by saying "well, I'm not TELLING you to change it, but you're making me feel bad on a personal level if you don't", vis-à-vis, 'if you don't change it you don't care about my feelings'.

 

[SimpleReally]

"I think adding house Token for the sake of having more black people that are worthy in your eyes reduces the quality of my work, and I think you are a racist for suggesting I do so" Would be the perfect answer from george

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

Weren't there a lot more black/egyptian/arabic based cultures and characters in the books that got cut? Strong Belwas and one of the trade masters from that pseudo egyptian/zoroastrian cities come to mind, as does Strong Mutherfuckin' Belwas.

Still bitter about him being cut.

 

[Michael Kirley]

I'm still waiting for someone to actually make an argument rather than hide behind "oh it was just a harmless question!" Yeah, it was a question. The answer to it is the same answer to the question of why Martin decided to write at all or why he named Cersei Cersei instead of Cyrsei: he just did. The question being asked only makes sense if there's some implicit expectation that there should be certain levels of diversity in an artistic work. To that expectation, I'd ask "why?"

 

[Something Amyss]

-snip-

I'm really not going to respond to a guy who claims I'm on ignore, but you interspersed what I said with things that Colour Scientist said. If you want to address her, by all means.

 

[Vegosiux]

-snip-

I'm really not going to respond to a guy who claims I'm on ignore, but you interspersed what I said with things that Colour Scientist said. If you want to address her, by all means.

It's rarely a perma-ignore with me (3 people there so far, and 2 of them have been banned since), but I might already be regretting my decision.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's rarely a perma-ignore with me (3 people there so far, and 2 of them have been banned since), but I might already be regretting my decision.

Yes, you put me on ignore rather than answer a simple question honestly, but you're regretting the decision to try and strike a conversation up with me. And on your first attempt to address me, you decide to quote someone else.

That's...yeah, I'm at a loss for words.

Tell you what. Since I lost all interest in discussing anything with you when you pulled that stunt, I'll put you on ignore. You can then ignore me or not, but it'll no longer be of any concern to me.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

Inb4
Anecdotal examples of a few notable non-Caucasians in medieval Europe

Yeah because Westeros is so true to medieval Europe.

Dragons? Fine.
People coming back from the dead? Makes sense.
More people of colour in important roles? Don't be so unrealistic.

Considering the series is inspired off of the war of roses, I'd say having white noble family's is sticking to that inspiration. What's wrong with that?

And what's with the passive aggressive "Must all black people be"? She realizes there's just as many white servants, guards, and charlatans in the series too, right?

The issue is that while there are white servants and guards, people of colour tend to only exist in these roles.

Someone really needs to watch the show. Khal Drogo and his tribe, the rich tradesmen Xaro Xhoan Daxos, the indian and middle eastern masters of slavers bay, hell oberyn is played by a Chilean.

 

[Dragonlayer]

And what's with the passive aggressive "Must all black people be"? She realizes there's just as many white servants, guards, and charlatans in the series too, right? And some of the white people who aren't any of those things are still terrible people.

I wonder how quick the "RACIST!" accusations would come if the majority of the characters were non-white and still did awful, awful things to each other.

OT

What about that continent across the sea from Westeros? Granted, I've not read the books and haven't exactly kept up with the show, but that place seemed to be full of non-whites....

Yeah and set it in commonly overly accused of crime and dilipated area like uhm BOSTON and...

Uh....I don't get it. Is Boston a crime haven or have connotations to disproportionately ethnic crime? Not being American, I can't quite figure out what you're trying to say.