Game of Thrones Author Comments on Lack of Racial Diversity in Series

80sboy

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A medieval European setting isn't supposed to have any diversity. Actually to them, white people of different cultures was diverse enough back then. What? There's a Frenchmen in England? What is the world coming to? A black person? They were a thing of myth. Pretty sure a medieval African setting would also be void of whites, as a medieval Asian setting was void of everything but Asians. That's how the world was back then, even with fairy tales and fantasy. I mean... why isn't everyone complaining that there are no black people in LOTR?
 

Ihateregistering1

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Colour Scientist said:
...feel free to hide behind the claim that you're defending artistic integrity and realism.
That's the point: Martin (and the fans of his books) shouldn't have to defend a damn thing. They're Martin's books, and he can make all of the characters talking goats with wings if he so chooses, or he can make every single character a straight white male if he wants. He can make each book be 7000 pages long and just write "all work and no play makes George a dull boy" if he chose to do so, and we choose whether to buy them or not. If lack of "diversity" makes it so you don't want to buy them (or watch the show), ok then, cool beans.

And while the person asking this question didn't tell Martin "you're a racist" they did tell them that "it hurts" that he hasn't made the books the way this person wants them to be. That's passive aggressively trying to get someone to change their own work, by saying "well, I'm not TELLING you to change it, but you're making me feel bad on a personal level if you don't", vis-à-vis, 'if you don't change it you don't care about my feelings'.
 

SimpleReally

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"I think adding house Token for the sake of having more black people that are worthy in your eyes reduces the quality of my work, and I think you are a racist for suggesting I do so" Would be the perfect answer from george
 

Malty Milk Whistle

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Weren't there a lot more black/egyptian/arabic based cultures and characters in the books that got cut? Strong Belwas and one of the trade masters from that pseudo egyptian/zoroastrian cities come to mind, as does Strong Mutherfuckin' Belwas.

Still bitter about him being cut.
 

Michael Kirley

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I'm still waiting for someone to actually make an argument rather than hide behind "oh it was just a harmless question!" Yeah, it was a question. The answer to it is the same answer to the question of why Martin decided to write at all or why he named Cersei Cersei instead of Cyrsei: he just did. The question being asked only makes sense if there's some implicit expectation that there should be certain levels of diversity in an artistic work. To that expectation, I'd ask "why?"
 

Something Amyss

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Vegosiux said:
I'm really not going to respond to a guy who claims I'm on ignore, but you interspersed what I said with things that Colour Scientist said. If you want to address her, by all means.
 

Vegosiux

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Vegosiux said:
I'm really not going to respond to a guy who claims I'm on ignore, but you interspersed what I said with things that Colour Scientist said. If you want to address her, by all means.
It's rarely a perma-ignore with me (3 people there so far, and 2 of them have been banned since), but I might already be regretting my decision.
 

Something Amyss

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Vegosiux said:
It's rarely a perma-ignore with me (3 people there so far, and 2 of them have been banned since), but I might already be regretting my decision.
Yes, you put me on ignore rather than answer a simple question honestly, but you're regretting the decision to try and strike a conversation up with me. And on your first attempt to address me, you decide to quote someone else.

That's...yeah, I'm at a loss for words.

Tell you what. Since I lost all interest in discussing anything with you when you pulled that stunt, I'll put you on ignore. You can then ignore me or not, but it'll no longer be of any concern to me.
 

Saucycarpdog

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Colour Scientist said:
Coruptin said:
Inb4
Anecdotal examples of a few notable non-Caucasians in medieval Europe
Yeah because Westeros is so true to medieval Europe.

Dragons? Fine.
People coming back from the dead? Makes sense.
More people of colour in important roles? Don't be so unrealistic.
Considering the series is inspired off of the war of roses, I'd say having white noble family's is sticking to that inspiration. What's wrong with that?

Colour Scientist said:
UberPubert said:
And what's with the passive aggressive "Must all black people be"? She realizes there's just as many white servants, guards, and charlatans in the series too, right?
The issue is that while there are white servants and guards, people of colour tend to only exist in these roles.
Someone really needs to watch the show. Khal Drogo and his tribe, the rich tradesmen Xaro Xhoan Daxos, the indian and middle eastern masters of slavers bay, hell oberyn is played by a Chilean.
 

Dragonlayer

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Dec 5, 2013
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Darmani said:
Dragonlayer said:
UberPubert said:
And what's with the passive aggressive "Must all black people be"? She realizes there's just as many white servants, guards, and charlatans in the series too, right? And some of the white people who aren't any of those things are still terrible people.
I wonder how quick the "RACIST!" accusations would come if the majority of the characters were non-white and still did awful, awful things to each other.

OT

What about that continent across the sea from Westeros? Granted, I've not read the books and haven't exactly kept up with the show, but that place seemed to be full of non-whites....
Yeah and set it in commonly overly accused of crime and dilipated area like uhm BOSTON and...
Uh....I don't get it. Is Boston a crime haven or have connotations to disproportionately ethnic crime? Not being American, I can't quite figure out what you're trying to say.
 

beastro

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Yeah, I'm waiting for the authors of the Iliad and Beowulf to edit their stories and bring in some diversity. /sarcasm

Westeros is aping medieval Europe and back then, especially in Northern/Central Europe seeing someone that wasn't white was a once in a life time thing and they stood out like a massive sore thumb. Even a few centuries back in Russia black people were a novelty, though they echoed the Medieval times more naive curiosity around different skin colours before the slave trade started up - Look up Abram Gannibal.

The amusing thing is, the book is full of more diversity than historical Europe purely by having the Dornish around alone in Westeros not to mention all the rest of the ethnic groups featured in Essos and the deliberate changing of characters skin colours for various reason, like the change of Robbs wife's background to Xaro Xhoan Daxos being changed from a Pureborn "milkman" born into the hierarchy of the city to a black man who came for the Summer Isles and made his own name in the city despite their obsession around blood.

Robbs wife was changed because they went by the actress' abilities and worked around that, haven't heard by they changed Xaro's ethnicity.

In the end it's refreshing that he's avoiding pandering like this. Westeros may no by realistic by far, but it tries to be Medieval Europe as much as it can and being "ahistorical" would ruin it, just as murder mysteries in the past 15 years have been spoiled by people injecting modern mores into the world of a century or more ago like with Miss Marple.
 

beastro

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Really now, if there's anything to complain about series for it's having everyone be utter monstrous shit with decent people being screwed at every turn a bit too much and becoming as unrealistic and tiresome as naive people always winning out because of their power of fluffy bunnies and rainbows.

If there's anything that can be said of GRRM by reading his books, it's not that he's racist and written anything like that into his works, it's that he's deeply misanthropic and hates us all equally, well except for singling out all the good nice people most of all!

Alek_the_Great said:
He didn't accidentally do any of that. The entirety of Essos is far from savages, slavers, and fanatics as you said. Hell, a lot of them are actually more civilized since as Tywin once said "They fight with coins instead of swords". Braavos pretty much owns Westeros based on how much money the crown owes the Iron Bank. Most of the cities of Essos are some of the most successful trading hubs in the entirety of the Known World. Valyrian Freehold was literally the most advanced nation by a mile in that world's history before it fell due the Doom of Valyria.
I find the complaint about Essos amusing as the Free Cities and Westeros basically hold the same views of each other that Eastern and Western Europe did during the Middle Ages with the Free Cities looking on the Westerosi knight culture being dressed up barbarism ala the Byzantine's while the Westerosi look on the Free Cities as weak, pathetic men with too much money in their hands and not enough swords.

Before people start complaining about Essos culture they should read up about it, especially how in the past centuries before the start of the books Braavos went from a mongrel state of escaped slaves into a hodge-podge Netherlands/Venice that has been actively waging war on slavery in the rest of the Free Cities, forcing Pentos to official abandon it and helping curb the power of Volantis, the greatest slaver state in the world from conquering the rest in their question to become the New Freehold.

You're focusing way too much on the negative aspects of only some of Essos' cultures when there is far more to the continent than that.
Because then there'd be nothing to complain about.

Essos is a very good rendition of Asia in that it's highly varied where ever you go.

I still don't see how slavery only really being a thing in Essos somehow a bad thing? It makes sense when you think about the cultures the Known World of A Song of Fire and Ice are inspired by. Slavery was rarely a thing in Medieval Europe with the advent of feudalism, so it's pretty understandable that a country inspired by it wouldn't have such a thing. Essos is inspired by a mix of Roman, Byzantinian, Middle Eastern, and other such similar cultures, all known to have had and extensive slave. So again, it's not like Martin directly made the choice to only have slavery in Essos, he only went with the real life inspirations as he did with all the other cultures. There's no way you can fault him for writing such a parallel like that without faulting our own history.
Because God-forbid we'd take our eye off of the Western European Slave Trade and look back on how Antiquity was pretty much built on slavery, carried on in Northern Europe until Christianity stamped it out, thrived in the Muslim world without interruption and even still in Christendom due to technicalities like abusing Serfdom and slave galleys in the Mediterranean using captured Muslims because Muslim did the same to Christians.

Most people these days really do not fathom how integral slavery has been to civilization with Medieval Christian Europe and the Modern Era which emerged from it being aberrations which have existed only a good thousand years in places and only a century or two as an evil compared to the rest of recorded history and most likely a great deal of unrecorded history going back into hunter-gather times.
 

elthingo

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piscian said:
What?? all the stuffy white people are in power? totally unrealistic. No I think he has it spot on. It is kind of racist and that's just how things were there and then. That said it generally states that Essos is far more diverse. It just so happens that Westeros was founded by a bunch of white guys. One thing to note again there's no real heroes. stop rooting for people in this series they're all fools or bad guys. So complaining that the main cast is not diverse enough is silly. In fact all the diverse folks are pretty much the only non-idiots.
Don't see how it's racist for the continent with a 99,9% white population to be ruled by white people. It kind of makes sense to me.
 

DEAD34345

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C.S.Strowbridge said:
Lunncal said:
We're talking about forced....
Nope. Someone asked a question about the lack of diversity in the book and a bunch of... fill in the blanks ...freaked out about it. There was nothing about force involved.
The words the person in the OP used were that the lack of racial diversity "really hurts". That strongly suggests that the person believes the lack of racial diversity in the book is actually wrong in some way, or that George Martin shouldn't write stories about places with a lack of racial diversity. Maybe "forced" isn't quite the exact word to use, I doubt the person actually wants to create a law to that effect or will go to his house and physically force him to change it, but the point is that they seem to think a story with a lack of racial diversity is automatically bad to begin with (which is where I disagreed with them, and you).

Don't dismiss my entire post because one word of it isn't quite perfect.
 

gagagaga

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Hmm, racism in ASOIAF... On the one hand, you've got slaughter and rape happy fantasy Mongols and black people who are viewed as primitives, dress in feathers and love sex. On the other you've got multicultural/racial Braavos which seems to be one of the better places to live, same with Dorne, basically the only place in Westeros where there are non-white people.