Game of Thrones Final Season Discussion Thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

okay so apparently the production fuck ups continue. In his final scene, hugging his bitchy incest sister girlfriend, Jaime, seconds before death, regrows his lost hand and is totally fine!

At this point its just funny

That image was apparently from an episode stills gallery, and not in the actual episode itself. At least many people on Reddit have claimed so.

But when I think about it, that could actually have been a really cool storytelling detail if presented right. Maybe show things from Cersei's perspective, delirious and jumbled from the ruin of her rule. With a pinch of magical realism to convey that what's shown may not be entirely literal it could have been a great metaphor for both Jaime's character regression, and a representation of Cersei's melancholy that at least she got to die with her brother, and the version of her brother she always loved. Hence Jaime "regrowing" his hand.

I think it would have really worked if they showed Cersi growing more and more insane over the episodes, hearing things, seeing things, etc...
Then perfect Jaime shows up, but he brought his new love Brienne with him, Cersi thinks he's betrayed her, attempts to kill Brienne with a crossbow, Jaime jumps in the way, gets show, Brienne loses it and either kills Cersi or knocks her out, and Jaime dies in Brienne's arms, his redemption complete and his arc fully realized.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Even so, the destruction that she has brought has served some purpose, though arguably quite poorly thought out.

She has not destroyed civilisations in the books. She has sacked cities and left them in the hands of inappropriate caretakers, only for the cities to fall once again (Astapor, Yunkai); these cities were not left as ruins, and the civilisations of Slaver's Bay are very much alive and well.

Dany sacked Astapor in Storm of Swords, ordering her soldiers to kill all freeborn men of the city. After this, the economy and public order collapsed and there was mass starvation. A tyrant named Cleon took control, but was later assassinated, starting a civil war between two possible successors, both of whom were ultimately killed. When Astapor was besieged by armies from Yunkai, an epidemic had broken out people were so desperate to flee the city that they allowed the besieging army in. When Quentin Martel passes through Astapor, he describes it as a literal hellscape and notes that the pyramids are still burning.

Yunkai was not left in ruins due to Dany's decision not to sack the city, and instead to press onwards for Mereen after the city surrendered. Since Yunkai later becomes the main focus point of resistance against Dany, this winds up being something she deeply regrets, leading her to threaten that she will raze the city to the ground if they attack Mereen, which of course they do.

Mereen, at the point we last saw it, is under siege by a coalition of Essoi nations Dany has pissed off. It is also locked in an internal power struggle between various factions, and also has an active insurgent movement seeking to bring down the occupation.

While Astapor has certainly come out worst, Dany's conquest has clearly been incredibly destructive to the entire region, and happened purely because she was emotionally repulsed by the slavery she saw in Astapor. Dany has never shown any problem with the concept that the end justifies the means, or that apocalyptic destruction of a society is any acceptable price to pay for supposed betterment. These are not small cities, they're probably similar in size to King's Landing given the general trend for Essoi cities to be bigger. If it's okay to sack and burn them in order to depose a tyrannical social system...

Dany never needed to be there. She never needed to do any of it. She could have followed Quaithe's advice and gone to Asshai (and probably become the eugenic super-wizard she was bred to be). The fact that she's been given an incredible opportunity to return real magic and wonder to the world, and she has completely squandered it on some pointless quest to be queen of something is the kind of mistake GRRM doesn't let characters get away with unscathed, and also the kind of senseless tragedy he seems to enjoy writing.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I don't watch GoT but here's a selfie with Jamie Lannister that I'm using now because it's the last time anybody will care.

Spoiler

 

[Abomination]

I don't watch GoT but here's a selfie with Jamie Lannister that I'm using now because it's the last time anybody will care.

Spoiler

He managed to keep his gold hand hidden in that one at least.

 

[wings012]

I really feel that those who are claiming that this is out-of-character for Dany must be newcomers to the series.

Does nobody remember the first season? How she got her dragons in the first place? (granted it was a long time ago)

Burning innocents on the altar of her ego and sense of entitlement is, and has (almost) always been, her main defining characteristic.

I don't mind what happened. But the pacing leading up to it leaves something to be desired. Among a lot of other issues like Drogon being able to just solo wipe everything out tirelessly and unassisted.

Season 8 feels very obviously rushed and feels like they are just throwing special effects at our faces and going all Michael Bay in a last ditch effort to quickly wrap everything up.

I think most people have a problem with how it happened rather than what happened.

 

[Silvanus]

Dany sacked Astapor in Storm of Swords, ordering her soldiers to kill all freeborn men of the city. After this, the economy and public order collapsed and there was mass starvation. A tyrant named Cleon took control, but was later assassinated, starting a civil war between two possible successors, both of whom were ultimately killed. When Astapor was besieged by armies from Yunkai, an epidemic had broken out people were so desperate to flee the city that they allowed the besieging army in. When Quentin Martel passes through Astapor, he describes it as a literal hellscape and notes that the pyramids are still burning.

I'm aware of all this (although Daenerys does not order the death of all freeborn men; she says the Unsullied may kill any man wearing a Tokar, which is a symbol of wealth).

The destruction that follows under Cleon and the civil war is a result of her shoddy planning, lack of forethought, and ignorance of the area. It is not her intended result. There is obviously a difference in characterisation between this and what the show has portrayed at King's Landing.

Yunkai was not left in ruins due to Dany's decision not to sack the city, and instead to press onwards for Mereen after the city surrendered. Since Yunkai later becomes the main focus point of resistance against Dany, this winds up being something she deeply regrets, leading her to threaten that she will raze the city to the ground if they attack Mereen, which of course they do.

Mereen, at the point we last saw it, is under siege by a coalition of Essoi nations Dany has pissed off. It is also locked in an internal power struggle between various factions, and also has an active insurgent movement seeking to bring down the occupation.

None of this is the intentional "destruction of an entire civilisation". In order to argue that her latest actions in the show are perfectly in line with her past characterisation, people are really stretching what happened beforehand, stripping it of all nuance and complexity.

While Astapor has certainly come out worst, Dany's conquest has clearly been incredibly destructive to the entire region, and happened purely because she was emotionally repulsed by the slavery she saw in Astapor. Dany has never shown any problem with the concept that the end justifies the means, or that apocalyptic destruction of a society is any acceptable price to pay for supposed betterment. These are not small cities, they're probably similar in size to King's Landing given the general trend for Essoi cities to be bigger. If it's okay to sack and burn them in order to depose a tyrannical social system...

...Then it's also okay to sack and burn them for no discernible reason whatsoever? That's the leap Benioff & Weiss are asking us to swallow.

It's Anakin Skywalker all over again. He killed the Tusken Raiders in an emotional tizzy after they killed his mother... therefore it's perfectly in line with his character to also calmly slaughter a bunch of kids who didn't do a thing to anyone!

I know the line of character development we're supposed to accept, and it's lazy.

Dany never needed to be there. She never needed to do any of it. She could have followed Quaithe's advice and gone to Asshai (and probably become the eugenic super-wizard she was bred to be). The fact that she's been given an incredible opportunity to return real magic and wonder to the world, and she has completely squandered it on some pointless quest to be queen of something is the kind of mistake GRRM doesn't let characters get away with unscathed, and also the kind of senseless tragedy he seems to enjoy writing.

The key word being "writing". If the story ends in the same spot in the books, GRRM will have laid a great deal more groundwork.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I know the line of character development we're supposed to accept, and it's lazy.

There's also the shows recurring problem with passing off Dany's more destructive impulses as cool, badass and inspirational. This is a show that framed Dany's killing of all the Khal's in a massive fire as a moment of great triumph, not one of great horror or even ambivalent emotions. The show that wants us to think that Dany was right to kill off all the masters in Astapor because the framing of it all is one of victory and accomplishment. The show where the showrunners made a great deal about "empowering women" and did it by letting them use violence and killing people as a shorthand for empowered.

You can't tell someone for seven seasons that it is cool to pour molten gold onto the head of your enemies, that it is radical to burn them alive, look them into empty vaults to starve to death or that powerful, inspirational people use violence and murder as empowering tools and then turn around in two episodes and try to tell us that it is actually totally signs of being a mad queen yo! D&D has botched the execution of Dany's supposed madness from the first season, simply because they've consistently failed to frame her violence as anything but righteous and cool. It is especially bad since she's not the only character who uses wanton violence to get their way, but Arya is not taken to task for making a cannibal pie of the Frey sons. Instead she gets rewarded with getting the killing blow on both Littlefinger and the Night King for exhibiting the same lack of empathy and hastiness in resorting to violence and revenge as Dany does.

As I've said, it is not that I can't see the storyline they intended for Dany. It is that they've absolutely failed to frame Dany as anything but a good, righteous person who is justified in her use of violence up until now. This is an especially bad stinker when you consider that Arya has a similar arc about violence but she continues to be framed as a really badass, empowered woman despite the utterly heinous shit she's pulled on the show.

 

[Hawki]

There's also the shows recurring problem with passing off Dany's more destructive impulses as cool, badass and inspirational. This is a show that framed Dany's killing of all the Khal's in a massive fire as a moment of great triumph, not one of great horror or even ambivalent emotions. The show that wants us to think that Dany was right to kill off all the masters in Astapor because the framing of it all is one of victory and accomplishment. The show where the showrunners made a great deal about "empowering women" and did it by letting them use violence and killing people as a shorthand for empowered.

You can't tell someone for seven seasons that it is cool to pour molten gold onto the head of your enemies, that it is radical to burn them alive, look them into empty vaults to starve to death or that powerful, inspirational people use violence and murder as empowering tools and then turn around in two episodes and try to tell us that it is actually totally signs of being a mad queen yo! D&D has botched the execution of Dany's supposed madness from the first season, simply because they've consistently failed to frame her violence as anything but righteous and cool. It is especially bad since she's not the only character who uses wanton violence to get their way, but Arya is not taken to task for making a cannibal pie of the Frey sons. Instead she gets rewarded with getting the killing blow on both Littlefinger and the Night King for exhibiting the same lack of empathy and hastiness in resorting to violence and revenge as Dany does.

As I've said, it is not that I can't see the storyline they intended for Dany. It is that they've absolutely failed to frame Dany as anything but a good, righteous person who is justified in her use of violence up until now. This is an especially bad stinker when you consider that Arya has a similar arc about violence but she continues to be framed as a really badass, empowered woman despite the utterly heinous shit she's pulled on the show.

Okay, this isn't really a specific post, but as it deals with everything up to season 8 (which I'll have to wait for on DVD), I have to disagree with, like, all of this. Like, listing Dany's actions that you list here, I can barely think of a single one you list where I got the sense that the show was trying to show Dany as being "kewl." Apart from burning the fleet in Slaver's Bay and the warlock sequence, off the top of my head, I can't think of a single moment where Dany commiting murder is entirely "isn't this cool?" Like, it's nice to see Viserys be melted, but Dany's reaction isn't normal. Xaro is a dick, but starvation isn't nice. Setting the Unsullied against their former masters has some karma to it, but the entire process is very unsettling, and is meant to let you feel uneasy (or certainly it left me uneasy).

Also, if we're bringing Arya into this, it's not a real equivalancy in my eyes. There's more of a leg to stand on if you're arguing "Arya = Badass," but her death toll is much, MUCH lower than Dany's, and everyone she kills has been targeted justice. Someone who deserves to die, or at least we're expected to be happy that they're dead. When Dany arbitrarily executes maesters, when she burns the Tarlys, even the khals, I never got the sense that I was expected to think "wow, cool." Because every time Dany's taken a life in the series up till now, with only a few exceptions, I've never been able to fully go "yeah, you go girl." Like, I really like Dany as a character, and hoped that her coin would land the other side, so to speak, but since it hasn't, I can't really claim ignorance of the warning signs being there.

 

[Saelune]

I know the line of character development we're supposed to accept, and it's lazy.

There's also the shows recurring problem with passing off Dany's more destructive impulses as cool, badass and inspirational. This is a show that framed Dany's killing of all the Khal's in a massive fire as a moment of great triumph, not one of great horror or even ambivalent emotions. The show that wants us to think that Dany was right to kill off all the masters in Astapor because the framing of it all is one of victory and accomplishment. The show where the showrunners made a great deal about "empowering women" and did it by letting them use violence and killing people as a shorthand for empowered.

You can't tell someone for seven seasons that it is cool to pour molten gold onto the head of your enemies, that it is radical to burn them alive, look them into empty vaults to starve to death or that powerful, inspirational people use violence and murder as empowering tools and then turn around in two episodes and try to tell us that it is actually totally signs of being a mad queen yo! D&D has botched the execution of Dany's supposed madness from the first season, simply because they've consistently failed to frame her violence as anything but righteous and cool. It is especially bad since she's not the only character who uses wanton violence to get their way, but Arya is not taken to task for making a cannibal pie of the Frey sons. Instead she gets rewarded with getting the killing blow on both Littlefinger and the Night King for exhibiting the same lack of empathy and hastiness in resorting to violence and revenge as Dany does.

As I've said, it is not that I can't see the storyline they intended for Dany. It is that they've absolutely failed to frame Dany as anything but a good, righteous person who is justified in her use of violence up until now. This is an especially bad stinker when you consider that Arya has a similar arc about violence but she continues to be framed as a really badass, empowered woman despite the utterly heinous shit she's pulled on the show.

Except those times she went right for the heads, and did not make efficient fire lines through the peasant filled streets.

With the Khals she killed all the LEADERS, and killing slavers too was justified. Oh some of them weren't as abusive to their SLAVES? So I am supposed to feel bad? Fuck that. Every slaver got what they deserved.

The difference with King's Landing is she decided to intentionally slaughter as many commonfolk as she could INSTEAD of just going to the Red Keep and torching it and Cersei with it. THAT is why it is 'suddenly not ok'. She didn't burn down all the Drothraki, just their leaders. She killed the slavers, not the slaves.

Killing evil people who do evil things is justified. Kraster, The Night King, Joffree, Tywyn and Shae, The Mountain, Walder Frey and many more were evil people who got a justified death. And now Danny deserves a justified death for her horrific actions, not for killing the Khals or slavers, but for torching the innocents of King's Landing, especially when she did not have to do that with her complete victory over Cersei's forces.

If your problem is just that people use violence and killing, even when against people who deserve it, maybe Game of Thrones is not for you?

 

[Hades]

Does anyone else think its amusing we are supposed to see the people of Kings Landing as poor victims after they've been depicted as complete scum for 8 seasons? They cheered at Ned's execution, they spat out Tyrion for saving them, knowingly enabled the Sparrows reign of terror, cheered on Cersei's victory even after she bombed them, and overall being a corrupt, dirty and riot prone sewage of a city. Even the children are rotten considering how easily they started aiding Cersei's wildfire plot.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

If your problem is just that people use violence and killing, even when against people who deserve it, maybe Game of Thrones is not for you?

I think you didn't get my point.

 

[Saelune]

If your problem is just that people use violence and killing, even when against people who deserve it, maybe Game of Thrones is not for you?

I think you didn't get my point.

You suggested that killing the Khals, slavers and Walder Frey were wrong. They aren't.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

You suggested that killing the Khals, slavers and Walder Frey were wrong. They aren't.

No, I suggested that the show had portrayed these things in a positive and empowering way, which means that the viewer is told through the cinematography that these are good things. To then turn around and go "But they were actually bad and look how evil Dany really is!" is shitty storytelling. I reserve the right to withhold any moral judgement on the fictional acts themselves.

 

[Hawki]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxrugucURAQ

Turns out the Simpsons predicted it years ago. 0_0

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I don't watch GoT but here's a selfie with Jamie Lannister that I'm using now because it's the last time anybody will care.

Spoiler

He managed to keep his gold hand hidden in that one at least.

Yeah I read about that, and the Starbucks cup. What the hell?

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

No, I suggested that the show had portrayed these things in a positive and empowering way, which means that the viewer is told through the cinematography that these are good things. To then turn around and go "But they were actually bad and look how evil Dany really is!" is shitty storytelling. I reserve the right to withhold any moral judgement on the fictional acts themselves.

To be fair, Arya missed one, but on the other hand Jaime called dibs on him. Sadly with Jaime dead, we'll never get to see the babypult. At this point, fuck it, just have the show's ending scene being Tyrion finishing his brothers business and launching the little bastard.

Does anyone else think its amusing we are supposed to see the people of Kings Landing as poor victims after they've been depicted as complete scum for 8 seasons?

Don't forget they threw poo on Joffrey, that's worth something. But, they threw poo on him because they were supposedly starving due to the war...but if they were starving, how did they make poo?

 

[Marik2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxrugucURAQ

Turns out the Simpsons predicted it years ago. 0_0

I'm still waiting for their prediction that donald trump will die in office.

 

[the December King]

Tyrion and Jon, left in total shock.

Loved watching Drogon obliterate things. I mean, it was horrific, but about how I always liked to think the dragons I had created behaved in my campaigns (tabletop), with that same level of ruthlessness and almost limitless power. Drogon breathed fire for hours... I would not be surprised if he is dead when we see him next, wore out like a hard-ridden horse. It would save me from seeing some stupid way in which he gets killed, but on the other hand, would save on CG costs.

Dany losing her mind was... well, it felt a bit... abrupt? The realization that she will never be loved by the people here, as it had been across the sea, and the loss of her closest confidant and friend to someone who killed her, and then that same party simply surrendered (in essence)... I would have needed to rage and vent, were I in her position, but I would have thought the battle up to that point would have been that release? I also still believe the bells tolling may have directly contributed to her losing her mind, but I can't recall- was the Mad King driven crazy? Oh well, maybe it was just synchronicity.

Euron, not to mention the entire armada of the Iron Fleet, suddenly being less than useless, when before he took out a dragon all on his own, was... disappointing.

I was expecting Jaime to get another shot at killing a Targaryen for some reason, but so be it.

Arya has bothered me since she became a super-ninja teen, but whatever. It felt like in the books she was becoming adept at killing but also irrevocably damaged, an aspect not really tackled in the show in favour of making her 'kick ass'. Her deciding to no longer want to kill Cersei was a bit of a surprise. A pale horse... not too subtle.

The fall of the Mountain and the Hound was pretty awesome.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Is it wrong to say that Episode 3 of this season is the best one so far?

 

[Agema]

Don't forget they threw poo on Joffrey, that's worth something. But, they threw poo on him because they were supposedly starving due to the war...but if they were starving, how did they make poo?

Most people who starve will be eating something: it's just it's less than they need to sustain themselves rather than nothing at all.