Game of Thrones Final Season Discussion Thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So....your move Amazon's Lord of the Rings.

You fuck up its all over for Fantasy in Film and Television.

Um...how?

What, if LotR fails, it's all over for the genre?

Superheroes are still dominating the Film Zeitgeist among Geek Culture at the moment.

 

[Hawki]

So....your move Amazon's Lord of the Rings.

You fuck up its all over for Fantasy in Film and Television.

Um...how?

What, if LotR fails, it's all over for the genre?

Superheroes are still dominating the Film Zeitgeist among Geek Culture at the moment.

I'm asking the same question, but how's that relevant? There's more than enough for one genre. Superhero films haven't sunk GoT.

 

[Agema]

That's the thing though, their attack on the city was a cakewalk - and everyone had been talking about surrender, and how this is about outing the Queen and not harming the people. There was no long drawn-out siege, there was next to no suffering by the attackers, and the enemies had SURRENDERED. The buildup to the North being opposed to Danerys, not trusting her, expecting her to be like her namesake, and the North's general reverence and love for the honour of their lords is just dropped like a sack of potatoes.

Watching the Unsullied go ham would make sense, they're following Grey Worm's lead. But the Northmen would at least show... concern about attacking a surrendered enemy, let alone engaging in outright rape and pillage of a surrendered city as well.

I agree it's not ideal: sacking tends to be associated with having to take a position by force, rather than the opponents standing down. However, I would argue that looting was institutionally ingrained in armies and the history of warfare would suggest armies could treat a city harshly anyway, even if it surrendered. If your queen is burning the place down and your allies are sacking it, you might be forgiven for thinking there's a sack going on, so get in there. It's also a stretch to assume the Northmen are that honourable and respectful. The nobles seemed to me (Karstarks, Umbers, Boltons, etc.) as much a bunch of backstabbers when it suited them, I can't see the populace being so magically respectful.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

That's the thing though, their attack on the city was a cakewalk - and everyone had been talking about surrender, and how this is about outing the Queen and not harming the people. There was no long drawn-out siege, there was next to no suffering by the attackers, and the enemies had SURRENDERED. The buildup to the North being opposed to Danerys, not trusting her, expecting her to be like her namesake, and the North's general reverence and love for the honour of their lords is just dropped like a sack of potatoes.

Watching the Unsullied go ham would make sense, they're following Grey Worm's lead. But the Northmen would at least show... concern about attacking a surrendered enemy, let alone engaging in outright rape and pillage of a surrendered city as well.

I agree it's not ideal: sacking tends to be associated with having to take a position by force, rather than the opponents standing down. However, I would argue that looting was institutionally ingrained in armies and the history of warfare would suggest armies could treat a city harshly anyway, even if it surrendered. If your queen is burning the place down and your allies are sacking it, you might be forgiven for thinking there's a sack going on, so get in there. It's also a stretch to assume the Northmen are that honourable and respectful. The nobles seemed to me (Karstarks, Umbers, Boltons, etc.) as much a bunch of backstabbers when it suited them, I can't see the populace being so magically respectful.

At this point using real life occurrences and practices to discuss GoT is largely pointless. This is the show that resolved two sieges in three episodes with neither siege involving any use of siege weapons by the attackers (though one had the defenders put their siege weapons as their frontline outside the walls). It is the show which made a great deal of the coming winter last season, played it up as a logistical problem for the first two episodes of this season and then promptly ignored it to get on with the battle for King's Landing, without even lip service paid to handwave it away. It is the show which last season saw Euron's fleet be in two places at once, despite them being separated by a continent (the east coast of Dorne and the coast outside Casterly Rock) while Euron himself managed to be in both places while also stopping to check-in on King's Landing. The show that had the Unsullied somehow walk across Westeros in what amounts to maybe a week or two tops after being "stranded" at Casterly Rock. The show in which a day's walk from the Wall could be covered by a running guy in a few hours, after which a Raven went supersonic and Dany could show up at most 10 hours later on her Intercontinental Ballistic Dragon from Dragonstone, despite Dragonstone previously having been at least a month's ride away from Winterfell, not to mention the wall.

GoT at this point is more concerned with spectacle and dramatic contrivance then it is with internal consistency or logic. If it makes for a better scene to have Northmen pillaging and openly trying to kill their own King/Warden/Bestest Leader in Westeros for trying to stop them, it will happen. Just as Varys, the guy who went deep undercover for 30 years in the most vicious court in all the lands, somehow makes basic mistakes and gets ratted out before even getting a basic plot to dispose Dany off the ground.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So....your move Amazon's Lord of the Rings.

You fuck up its all over for Fantasy in Film and Television.

Um...how?

What, if LotR fails, it's all over for the genre?

Superheroes are still dominating the Film Zeitgeist among Geek Culture at the moment.

I'm asking the same question, but how's that relevant? There's more than enough for one genre. Superhero films haven't sunk GoT.

Ah I don;t know maybe I am rambling. I am just hoping Amazon's Lord of the Rings doesn't suck. And they are not helping with the showrunners of their choice. Like former writers for Star Trek Beyond of all things

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

King's Landing was sacked, razed, and butchered AFTER they singled that they surrendered.

Yes, that's pretty much how it usually went down in real life. If the defenses failed and the attacker got into the city, the defender would often time not surrend and every capable man, woman and child would fight tooth and nail in the street in a desperate attempt to drive them off.

Because they knew that if the enemy gets inside, getting sacked was basically guaranteed. Surrender or not. Oftentimes, it would still happen if the defender surrendered before it got to that point.

I agree it's not ideal: sacking tends to be associated with having to take a position by force, rather than the opponents standing down. However, I would argue that looting was institutionally ingrained in armies and the history of warfare would suggest armies could treat a city harshly anyway, even if it surrendered. If your queen is burning the place down and your allies are sacking it, you might be forgiven for thinking there's a sack going on, so get in there. It's also a stretch to assume the Northmen are that honourable and respectful. The nobles seemed to me (Karstarks, Umbers, Boltons, etc.) as much a bunch of backstabbers when it suited them, I can't see the populace being so magically respectful.

I'm inclined to agree. The North's reputation for being honorable might just be in comparison with the rest of Westeros i.e. honorable by their medieval standards. Only the Starks themselves seem to actually walk the talk. The other notable Northern houses not so much. Not the Karstarks. Certainly not the Boltons.

You also need to keep in mind that the Westerosi idea of "honorable" probably isn't the same as our modern understanding of it. Because it wasn't in real ancient and medieval times, and that seems like a thing GRRM would have done the research on. Early seasons at least seemed to adhere to a more medieval form of honor, tho that got flanderized, particularly in Jon Snow.

 

[stroopwafel]

Very cool episode. Given last episode it was kind of expected Dany would go berserk but never expected it would be this brutal by deliberately toasting women and children after killing the already surrendered Lannister army. I guess she just couldn't escape her family's curse. Cleganebowl was fantastic as well with the burning city underneath. The dragon spitting fire on one of those castle walls reminded me a lot of Dark Souls 3, espescially the time of day and Lothric already looking a lot like King's Landing. Totally geeked out at that xD Absolutely gorgeous stuff. Bummed it's almost over.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

I just don't think turning Dany into a massively bloodthirsty, civilian-murdring monster in two episodes is really doing seven and a half seasons of character development learning how to be a strong and just queen any justice at all.

"Thirteen, when my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground! Turn us away, and we will burn you first."

-Daenerys, "Garden of Bones", episode 4, season 2.

"I will crucify the masters, I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. That is the plan."

-Daenerys, "Battle of the Bastards, episode 9, season 6

Literally five seasons of Daenerys wanting to raze entire cities only to be talked down by her closest confidants. Finally, she has the opportunity to actually do it and no one to talk her down. You're surprised by the outcome? What exactly did you think would happen if at any point previous she had done it?

You can talk about how D&D fucked the execution of this, and I'll agree. But that she did it in and of itself was the most telegraphed and foreshadowed event in the entire series. This was Daenerys' endgame, and it always was.

"Oh, but Dany was learning to be a kind and wise ruler who would never, ever do that sort of thing!" Oh, bullshit. The entire series is a paean to how elites justify sociopathic behavior by claiming noblesse oblige, charity, or benevolence. The idea Dany was somehow different is delusion.

Even the Tyrells, the most openly beneficent of all Great Houses, simply weaponized the smallfolks' sentiment to achieve their own ends. Put to it, the Tyrells loathe the smallfolk just like every other noble, and as if that wasn't evident by the Tyrells' cutting off food shipments to King's Landing over the Faith Militant, it certainly was by the time Olenna advised Dany to directly attack King's Landing.

 

[Hades]

I'm surprised people are surprised at the northerners joining the looting. They were already seen hanging Riverland girls all the way back in season 3.

 

[McElroy]

The last 10 minutes were good. The steadycam shots, even if clouds of dust are used to hide cuts are impressive and there is some good ol' Quo Vadis (burning of Rome) vibe in there.

But hey, we also have a dumbass chicken fight between Euronics and Jaime that had me burst out laughing. Awful green screens here and there. Physics-breaking dragonfire. "Her dragons are vulnerable", well apparently not. And the Golden Company was about 100 dudes in front of the gates. No archers anywhere for budget reasons?

 

[jademunky]

R.I.P. Queen Cersei.

You were the best of them all along.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Saw episode 5. Quick notes. Loads of spoilers:

- Master schemer Varys spent all those seasons playing everyone, but decided to religiously go to town on himself with the idiot stick.
- Nice feels moment between Tyrion and Jaime. In fact, I'd say most of the actors brought their A game, except Kit Harrington. And Philou Asbaek, but you know, guy doesn't have anything to work with, so might not actually be his fault.
- Well, the Golden Company sure came and went. Like a *****. So did Qyburn, for that matter. Not that I'm particularly upset about it.
- Dany said she wanted to burn cities to the ground before, but now she actually put words into action. Nice to see her finally open up and achieve her fullest potential. Well done, you crazy girl.
- Dragon fire functions like a thermobaric explosive. Michael Baysplosions! Made for entertaining visuals tho. Dubrovnik looked beautiful as always, even when going boom. Even recognized some spot from back when I visited. Points for cool and nostalgia factor.
- Cleganebowl happened. Was kind of disappointed, but that's probably because of hype. It ended they way I predicted tho, so 1 point to me, cept the points don't matter.
- Arya somehow survived being burned to a crisp, unlike the mother and child only a few meters away from her. Fine, someone needs to go ride off on Plotconvenient Horse to kill Dany anyway, or fail trying. I'm guessing the latter.

For all my gripes, I had a good time, tho it's mostly the production values carrying the show now. It might be big dumb spectacle, but few can match it, neither in bigness or dumbness.

 

[Saelune]

Arya is going to kill Danny.

Jon and Danny are going to come to blows, Jon will have his moment to kill her, not take it, then Danny will get her opportunity, take too long to take it, then Arya is going to kill her.

Soldiers are terrible. Doesn't matter where from. They all turn to murdering rapists when left to it.

Tyrion's plan was dumb, like really really dumb. And I mean, wasn't the plan for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, then ring the bell and leave with Davos? He was staring at that bell for no good reason, and Jaime just like, rings it without even getting to her?

And why didn't Danny just destroy the Red Keep and Cersei? Originally it was because she was defended, but she made short work of that, so why not instead of going full evil, cause she is supposed to become the real villain, not just blow up Cersei and the Red Keep and be done with it? And no, I am not going to pass blame onto the show for that one. I do not doubt that the books are going to go similar.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

I was not aware Dragon Fire can break through Concrete Walls...

A) Its stone, don't think these guys have concrete, and B) dragon fire has always been noted to be innately magical, much more potent than regular fire. Remember Harrenhall? One dragon straight up melted it. Though admittedly the TV show seems to have gone from more "its super hot" to "it esplodes!"

This kind of rampant destruction honestly feels out of place for Dany. Yes, she's got a vindictive streak but she always keeps it fairly tightly focused. She crucified people when she claimed Meereen, sure, but she crucified the Masters, the group she felt were responsible for the suffering. If you hurt her then she hurts you, she doesn't take it out on everyone around you just for being around you.

Also, good luck having anyone sit on the Iron Throne now, pretty sure its at least buried if not outright destroyed

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So for anyone who wants to know the spoilers for Episode 6 because they lost all interest. Here is the Reddit link, Because this episode was accurate to the recent leaks. So here's the reddit post detailing what happens in Episode 6.

A REMINDER THIS IS POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 6 SO DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bkc8xd/compilation_of_spoilers_for_got_episodes_46/

AGAIN DON'T CLICK ON IT IF YOU WANT TO BE SURPRISED AND/OR DISAPPOINTED NEXT WEEK!!!

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

All I can say is in hindsight Episode 3 is way better then Episode 5.

Now we went from the Night King to Cersei to Dany.

 

[jademunky]

I really feel that those who are claiming that this is out-of-character for Dany must be newcomers to the series.

Does nobody remember the first season? How she got her dragons in the first place? (granted it was a long time ago)

Burning innocents on the altar of her ego and sense of entitlement is, and has (almost) always been, her main defining characteristic.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Goddammit. This was the best episode of the season. It also had some of the most retarded shit in the series. But there was actually quite a lot of good stuff. And also retardation. But also good. Is this what "ambivalence" means?

I was legitimately enjoying the first half an hour, Varys' extremely ungrateful end not withstanding; the super dour atmosphere, the interaction between Tyrion and Jaime, the genuinely great sense of impending doom the show managed to build. This episode more than any other proves that D&D should stick to being showrunners, and chased out of any writers' room with pitchforks and torches. Because when the show shuts the fuck up for a second and lets the director take the reins, it's actually great: The music, direction and acting all worked wonders. The fight between Euron and Jaime was wonderfully brutal and bitter. There was some delightfully meaty gore in the fight scenes. I was even impressed by Emilia Clarke's acting on the shot where she's standing on the back of her dragon with tears in her eyes, excellently conveying a character out of her depth.

The whole episode was like yo-yoing between a wonderful climax, and the fanfiction of a 12 year old. One minute I'm impressed by the atmosphere, the next I'm facepalming at the battle tactics that were written by a 5-year old. One minute I'm enjoying the brutality with which the events are depicted, the next I groan at how Arya and Sandor just walk into King's Landing without any disguises whatsoever. Every other minute I'd switch between "Oooh!" and "Aaaarrrggghhh!"

The first 30 minutes I have only one issue with (Varys' death), but let's break down the rest:
- armies park within like a 100 yards of each other, perfectly visible and within ranged weapon range. The Golden Company is hauled outside because D&D are retards who literally don't understand military tactics on even a 4-year old's level.
- Euron's armada of 360 noscoping overpowered scorpions apparently got massively nerfed in the latest patch, and pose no resistance whatsoever.
- Stone buildings literally explode from dragonfire like they're pi?atas stuffed with firecrackers and TNT. Hey, didn't we have like, a line about what can melt stone in the second season? The one that was kind of a big bit of worldbuilding? Eh, whatever, let's just have enough EXPLOSIOOOOOOOONS to make Michael Bay say "Stop, I can only get so erect!".
- Wasn't the Mountain established to be pretty much a zombie? Apparently not, since all of a sudden he just forgets that because somewhere in the distance an airhorn is blowing and the writers are 12-year olds.
- Stone structures fall over from dragonfire like they're made of matches, held together with blu-tack.
- Jaime gets stabbed twice within the abdomen with a 1,5 footlong dagger, probably puncturing several vital organs, but apparently that ain't no biggie because he just walks to Cersei no problem. Through what is undoubtedly hundreds of steps of steep stairs.
- Jaime gets released the previous night, and yet it somehow takes him the entire day to get to his destination. Which apparently includes walking into the middle of a city, then teleporting to a waterfront, and into the red keep. See, this is why establishing world geography is important.
- Apparently King's Landing in its entirety is held together with wishful thinking and what was scraped off the wet patch in the sheets the morning after, because at a point buildings just start to fall over on their own with no rhyme or reason.
- Why is Davos on the frontline leading the men? He's not a commander, hell, he's not even an officer, but... oh wait, I remember now! It's because the writers are 12 year olds.
- So apparently all it took anyway for Arya to be shaken out of her bloodlust was a pep talk from the Hound that they literally already had several seasons ago!

I'm probably already forgetting something despite having finished the show less than 40 minutes ago. Honestly I'm starting to gain a kind of respect for this season. Like, this is reaching The Room levels of badness. A perfect case study of what not to do. A once in a generation culmination of fuck-up, incompetence and boredom that should be shown in film classes to show how not to make an ending.

The ending. Oh, am I excited to see just how fucking bad this can get!

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

I really feel that those who are claiming that this is out-of-character for Dany must be newcomers to the series.

Does nobody remember the first season? How she got her dragons in the first place? (granted it was a long time ago)

Burning innocents on the altar of her ego and sense of entitlement is, and has (almost) always been, her main defining characteristic.

How she got her dragons in the first place? By burning a woman who made her infertile and turned her husband into a vegetable. Dany is no stranger to burnings, but innocents are hardly her cup of tea. Remember how she locked up all her three dragons due to them having burned one innocent child alive?

 

[Hawki]

Remember how she locked up all her three dragons due to them having burned one innocent child alive?

I don't think that's an example of "hard justice" in this case. More a case of...

Say you have three dogs. You ignore warnings that these could bite people. A dog bites a person. You lock up your other dogs because you see what dogs can do now.

Now apparently since then Dany's dragons just decided to stop eating people I guess, but while Dany's always had a megalomanaiacal, hard justice/pyrophilic streak, I wouldn't say the dragon chains are an example of it.