Game of Thrones Final Season Discussion Thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

[Hawki]

Ah, my mistake, must be thinking of a different book with the same title.

It's a long time since I read my version of Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson; I recall the world-building being good but the characters just all over the place and prone to behaving in whatever way was convenient for moving the plot forward (which makes Sanderson a shoo-in for finishing Robert Jordan's work).

(The copy I read also had an unedited draft of the first chapter of the next book at the back and, holy shit, he must have a good editor.)

I can't say. But I can say that I prefer Mistborn to Stormlight (and WoT I guess) because while Mistborn has comparatively light worldbuilding, it has far more compelling characters.

Said it before, and I'll say it again - I don't care how detailed your world is if your characters and/or plot aren't up to snuff. In 600 pages of Stormlight book 1, I could tell you a fair bit about the world, but very little about the characters, and even less about the plot.

Maybe Martin hasn't finished working on those books yet cause he's too busy working on the next Dark Souls entry?

https://gematsu.com/2019/05/george-rr-martin-ive-consulted-on-a-video-game-out-of-japan


(yes, really)

But...why?

If it's a Dark Souls IV, do ASoIaF and DS really have that much in common bar nihilism?

 

[Dalisclock]

Maybe Martin hasn't finished working on those books yet cause he's too busy working on the next Dark Souls entry?

https://gematsu.com/2019/05/george-rr-martin-ive-consulted-on-a-video-game-out-of-japan


(yes, really)

But...why?

If it's a Dark Souls IV, do ASoIaF and DS really have that much in common bar nihilism?

Good Worldbuilding. The Souls games don't really have plots worth speaking of but there's a ton of lore and worldbuilding there, so maybe FROM wants to get RR invovled in that?

Who knows? Maybe RR has a serious case of writers block and he's trying to clear it by working on other projects? I did read a interview recently where he said he really wanted to get Winds of Winter out before the show ended, but the more he tried forcing it, the harder it became to write. Also, apparently he's more comfortable jumping around between projects(I don't have a source for this though), which wasn't an issue until Game of Thrones got super popular when people started demanding to see more ASOIF books.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Remember Jaime raping Cersei right next to Joffery's Corpse?

Yeah, about that. The encounter was intended during production to be entirely consensual, Alex Graves and D&D completely fucked it. It's described as consensual in both the script and storyboarding, and moreover that scene in the book was not just consensual but Cersei initiated it (if I remember right).

What really happened, apparently, was Graves shot it in a really hinky way, and both Coster-Waldau and Headey objected to how it was filmed, arguing viewers could interpret it as rape; both were told to shut up and do their job, and they did. Then, D&D left the job of editing solely to Graves (remember what I said earlier about them #MeToo'ing naked extras in the green room?), and having shot the scene in the first place and seeing nothing wrong with it, Graves left it unaltered to air the way it did.

Needless to say, it blew up. Graves fucked up in the initial interviews, making contradictory, unclear, and inflammatory statements regardless of whether you thought it was a rape scene or not. D&D didn't help either, as during the "Inside the Episode" special they clearly referred to it as a rape (just not using the word). Cogman deferred to D&D, and Coster-Waldau and Headey refused to comment initially.

Then shit started getting weird. Graves fell in line with D&D that it was a rape, but D&D went completely radio silent for an entire year, going so far as to refuse interviews and public appearances, and even didn't produce a commentary track for the episode for its home video release (every other episode in the season had one). After that happened, it became obvious Benioff, Weiss, and Graves were trying to cover their ass and dodge the issue, and Coster-Waldau and Headey broke their silence in multiple interviews and panel appearances. They confirmed neither the script, storyboarding, or set direction indicated it was anything but consensual sex -- Cersei's objection was they might be seen, and they should go somewhere private.

Graves, in the meantime, was not invited back to direct GoT again. A telling exclusion, considering he directed two of season 3's episodes and four of season 4's, and was apparently otherwise highly regarded and acclaimed for his directed episodes. Then during the Oxford Union panel before the season 5 premiere, D&D were confronted directly about it during Q&A. Benioff waffled on the answer and gave a really milquetoast, non-committal, response implying it was intended to be rape but not outright saying it.

So, either one of three things happened:

1. Coster-Waldau and Headey are lying about the script, storyboarding, and set direction. We know this not to be the case, since the scripts are available in the WGA West library, and those who have read it confirm Coster-Waldau's and Headey's claims.

2. The scene was intended to be a rape scene, shot as such, and/or was edited to be one. If this was the case Coster-Waldau and Headey were lied to by Graves and D&D, and the script was falsified for...some reason.

Or, most likely given D&D's BTS shenanigans and penchant for compulsive lying and general incompetence,

3. The scene was never intended to be a rape scene, D&D are awful screenplay writers, and Graves indeed shot and edited it poorly. D&D threw everyone else under the bus -- namely Graves, Coster-Waldau, and Headey -- to cover their own asses.

Either way, what's in the episode is in the episode. But, on the other hand, there's more to the story than what's in the episode, none of which reflects well on Graves, Benioff, Weiss, or Cogman, and it deserves closer scrutiny.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Yeah, about that. The encounter was intended during production to be entirely consensual, Alex Graves and D&D completely fucked it. It's described as consensual in both the script and storyboarding, and moreover that scene in the book was not just consensual but Cersei initiated it (if I remember right).

It also wouldn't be the first time that GoT made a sex scene less consensual or more violent to make it spicier. The infamous Drogo/Dany sex scene which is described as gentle and caring (if firm) in the books is downright rapey in the show. In both the Dany/Drogo and the Jaime/Cersei case the change of framing has radically different implications for the characters. Instead of Dany realizing that Drogo actually cares for her well being and pleasure, and starting her arc to realize how Viserys is a terrible brother, she's just raped in the show. Similarly, the book sex scene in the Sept is the final act that makes Jaime realize how toxic his and Cersei's relationship is and what drives him to break with his family in favor of going full King's Guard.

But it should be noted that I'm also one of the people who have serious issues with how GoT handles sexual violence and rape in general. This is the same show where Ramsay gets to rape Sansa because he has to rape someone on his wedding night and Jeyne Poole was adapted out. So the showrunners decided it was a great idea to fuck up Sansa's entire arc so she could become Ramsay's victim for totally contrived and illogical reasons. The same show that would later, in the last season, go one to have Sansa say on at least two different occasions that her being raped made her into a capable woman. The show actually has similar implications (if not outright stated) about Drogo's rape of Dany, in that it made her realize she could trust no one and had to look out for herself, which is the total opposite of what her book arc is.

But I think both you and Btongue has a point in that the main problem is likely that D&D are just not very good screenwriters and showrunners and were grossly unqualified for leading a show with the size and scope of GoT. Their insistence on showing most sex as either prostitution, rape or in a violent framing (Theon, anyone?) and having less than half a dozen consensual sex scenes through the shows run is probably a testament to an inability to understand what they are actually putting on screen and what their source material is trying to say.

 

[Agema]

They're almost certain to start reaving again, and press for independence again.

The Dornish largely stayed out of the fighting, and can be assumed to have the largest standing army left. And, they're going to hold grudges and press their advantage for independence as well when they can't be countered.

The Iron Islands and Dorne are both very weak realms. Both could at peak raise about half as many men for war as the other realms.

Dorne is small and basically mostly desert - it has a low population and not much money. It has no power to achieve anything on its own - that's why its strategy was to be instrumental placing a candidate on the Iron Throne (and in the books, to marry into it) thereby giving it leverage through the monarch. Realistically, Dorne can enforce nothing.

The Iron Islands are very small, harsh, low population and low wealth. They are fiercer than most other realms and so can "punch above their weight" militarily, although of course they've also lost quite a lot of troops and fleet - Theon's misadventures in the north, civil war, Euron, etc. They can reave only if the rest of Westeros is in chaos to let them.

 

[Hawki]

Good Worldbuilding. The Souls games don't really have plots worth speaking of but there's a ton of lore and worldbuilding there, so maybe FROM wants to get RR invovled in that?

Fantasy and sci-fi rely heavily on worldbuilding. Saying that two fantasy/sci-fi settings have "good worldbuilding" isn't much to base similarities on.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Ok, stop (hammer time). Here's something to ponder. We all know who becomes king in the end. Now think back. How did the very first episode of season 1 end?

Jaime has the best Kingslayer game of all time. All the other Kingslayers in the show are scrubs.

Anyway, GoT ending in a nutshell: Arya went West, Jon went North, Drogon went East and the show went South.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Jaime has the best Kingslayer game of all time. All the other Kingslayers in the show are scrubs.

Huh, good point.

GoT ending in a nutshell: Arya went West, Jon went North, Drogon went East and the show went South.

Spoiler

Do-ho-ho-ho

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

The Dornish largely stayed out of the fighting, and can be assumed to have the largest standing army left. And, they're going to hold grudges and press their advantage for independence as well when they can't be countered.

There were only eight people living in all of Dorne. Oberyn, his brother, nephew, the bodyguard and the Sand Snakes. They all died, so Dorne is completely and utterly devoid of life now.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

...at peak...

"At peak" doesn't matter, "who's left" does. Even then, all Dorne needs to achieve independence is to be able to resist invasion and occupation. Successfully invading and occupying Dorne was not a feat even Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys were able to accomplish at the peak of Targaryen military might with three-fully grown dragons, and the end of the war was a treaty the terms of which were un-negotiated and fully dictated by Dorne.

But I think both you and Btongue has a point in that the main problem is likely that D&D are just not very good screenwriters and showrunners and were grossly unqualified for leading a show with the size and scope of GoT. Their insistence on showing most sex as either prostitution, rape or in a violent framing (Theon, anyone?) and having less than half a dozen consensual sex scenes through the shows run is probably a testament to an inability to understand what they are actually putting on screen and what their source material is trying to say.

The picture gets a lot clearer when you look into the script for the unaired pilot episode -- either that leaked version online of dubious pedigree, or the draft Martin archived in the Cushing Memorial Library at Texas A&M. Because, surprise, surprise -- the Dany/Drogo consummation scene is actually from the books, while the Jaime/Cersei sex scene has the same problems as the 4.03 sex scene.

In the end, it boils down to putting a pair of brochachos with more connections between them than brain cells, who are convinced of their own brilliance but have zero qualifications aside, in an echo chamber of their own making, and giving them near-limitless money and no oversight other than what directors can leverage in the editing room. It doesn't take much more than viewing a couple "inside the episode" shorts to realize they have no idea what's actually happening on the show they wrote, and are much more interested in the screenplays and actors' emotive performances than the end product itself.

You can pretty much tell in the season 8 "ItE"s they're long past done with the show, don't care, and are facing the shorts with all the enthusiasm, maturity, and sense of ownership of a small child being asked by their parents who ate all the cookies and marked up the walls with crayon. It's pretty obvious this season is the first time they've had no lies or promises of buildup to greater things as a fallback, nor anyone to conveniently throw under the bus, and that blame for what happens will actually fall where it's deserved.

The way Benioff acted in the shorts, I was fully expecting him to shuffle in his chair, look at the floor, and stammer out his dog and imaginary friend wrote the episode.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

GoT ending in a nutshell: Arya went West, Jon went North, Drogon went East and the show went South.

Spoiler

Do-ho-ho-ho

Thank you, thank you, you're too kind. I'll be here all night.

Lame jokes help ease the pain. Not mine, mind you. I had long since abandoned all illusions and was pretty much just in it to see how deep the rabbithole went.

Also, remember how Jon goes off in a huff to talk to Dany about killing prisoners of war in the street, leaving Grey Worm behind to get his murder boner on? Jon's next scene is him climbing the steps of the Red Keep. Good 'ol Torgo Nudho is already waiting for him at the top. How did he beat Jon there? Maybe he just hauled ass, but you want my guess?

Jon stopped by the local Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Okay, Brienne, Davos and Gendry I recognise, but I have no clue who those other two dudes are supposed to be. Is the guy next to Gendry supposed to be another Baratheon bannerman, since the others are, one way or another, connected to that house? And the one on far right, that's not Ilyn Payne is it? I knew his actor was recovering from cancer, would be nice if they'd manage to get one last cameo in for him

They are, from left of Gendry, Ser Fred of House Flintstone, and Lord Ronald of House McDonald.

Ilyn Payne got written out of the show quite early on. As you say, his actor was diagnosed with (but last I heard, recovering from) cancer. They silently took his name off Arya's "list" (great list that turned out to be, I think she got like two names) and made no comment about him thereafter.

 

[Nielas]

They're almost certain to start reaving again, and press for independence again.

The Dornish largely stayed out of the fighting, and can be assumed to have the largest standing army left. And, they're going to hold grudges and press their advantage for independence as well when they can't be countered.

The Iron Islands and Dorne are both very weak realms. Both could at peak raise about half as many men for war as the other realms.

Dorne is small and basically mostly desert - it has a low population and not much money. It has no power to achieve anything on its own - that's why its strategy was to be instrumental placing a candidate on the Iron Throne (and in the books, to marry into it) thereby giving it leverage through the monarch. Realistically, Dorne can enforce nothing.

The Iron Islands are very small, harsh, low population and low wealth. They are fiercer than most other realms and so can "punch above their weight" militarily, although of course they've also lost quite a lot of troops and fleet - Theon's misadventures in the north, civil war, Euron, etc. They can reave only if the rest of Westeros is in chaos to let them.

Dorne has been quasi-independent since it became part of the Seven Kingdoms. With the crown's powers severely weakened, Dorne can make its own decisions and don't need formal independence.

These are feudal realms. Without a very strong king, each realm is de facto independent. Sansa chose to declare independence for the North because that way she can be Queen in her own name but most of the other Lords do not really care. The Vale and Dorne will rule themselves as they see fit.

The Iron Islands simply cannot exist as a "reaver" nation. They are going to get slapped everytime their raiding parties attack their neighbours. It they can get over that issue, the other realms will not care how they govern themselves.

The problem areas are the Stormlands and the Reach.

Gendry can probably take over as Lord but will need support of the other Realms which he will get. He is Robert's son, a war hero and has the full support of Davos who Stannis's Hand for many years.

Bronn will have to work really hard to hold onto Highgarden and is likely to fail given the nature of the Reach.

 

[McElroy]

Jon stopped by the local Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

Not only that but he had to look for the one that wasn't burnt down.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

With the crown's powers severely weakened, Dorne can make its own decisions and don't need formal independence.

These are feudal realms. Without a very strong king, each realm is de facto independent.

Dorne always had more independence than the other kingdoms due to the peace treaty that brought them into the Kingdoms, but not full independence. They were still be under the crown's taxation, tariff, and custom policies, which according to AWoIaF was a major sore point for the Dornish and source of tension between the Martells and Lannisters long before Robert's Rebellion. Like, for example, when Tywin exploited his authority as Hand to play rough and loose with the crown's fiscal policies to benefit allies and shift financial burdens onto rivals -- lowering Lannisport but raising White Harbor tariffs to benefit specie of Lannister origin, and doing the same for Oldtown versus Planky Town tariffs to benefit Reach and disadvantage Dornish trade.

Dorne's economy is based on the export of exotic goods and wine, and due to its proximity to Essos is a competitor with northern ports for trade across the Narrow Sea. Raising taxes and tariffs on Dorne means they're less competitive with the Reach (wine), or Crownlands and Stormlands (Essos trade). Being independent to set their own fiscal policy is paramount to Dornish prosperity.

It's important to note Tywin's fiscal shenanigans and nepotism were what caused the Defiance, so don't pretend this isn't important.

 

[SupahEwok]

It's important to note Tywin's fiscal shenanigans and nepotism were what caused the Defiance, so don't pretend this isn't important.

It isn't, in the context of the show's universe's presented [lack of] logic.

 

[Abomination]

It's important to note Tywin's fiscal shenanigans and nepotism were what caused the Defiance, so don't pretend this isn't important.

It isn't, in the context of the show's universe's presented [lack of] logic.

I mean, who cares about ports when you can fast travel armies across a continent?

The most "interesting" economic sub-plot was when Bronn just outright martial law'd all the suspected criminals in King's Landing before the battle of Blackwater. Doesn't the kingdom still owe a ridiculous amount of money to the Iron Bank now? Whoever wins the throne probably inherits those debts also.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

The most "interesting" economic sub-plot was when Bronn just outright martial law'd all the suspected criminals in King's Landing before the battle of Blackwater. Doesn't the kingdom still owe a ridiculous amount of money to the Iron Bank now? Whoever wins the throne probably inherits those debts also.

Yup and supposedly there's still a massive winter coming, only a large part of the population are dead and of the surviving a majority do not have the food stores necessary to survive a multi-year winter. That's on top of the ravaged infrastructure, destroyed agricultural and manufacturing base and general desolation the seven kingdoms has suffered in the last 8 years of GoTs run time. We are obviously not supposed to think about the Iron Bank or Winter, because neither gets a mention past S8E2 and thinking about details is not the D&D way.

 

[Dalisclock]

Yup and supposedly there's still a massive winter coming, only a large part of the population are dead and of the surviving a majority do not have the food stores necessary to survive a multi-year winter.

Well, that's a problem that solves itself, really. Hell, Drogon even pre-cooked a lot of the "food" for the survivors.

You're welcome.

Good Worldbuilding. The Souls games don't really have plots worth speaking of but there's a ton of lore and worldbuilding there, so maybe FROM wants to get RR invovled in that?

Fantasy and sci-fi rely heavily on worldbuilding. Saying that two fantasy/sci-fi settings have "good worldbuilding" isn't much to base similarities on.

Yeah, I got nothing beyond that. FROMSOFT games, at least the Souls ones(maybe Seriko broke the trend), tend to be rather plot light but heavily in lore, where as GRRM tends to have a lot of both. So unless the next FROMSOFT game is gonna have a lot of court intrigue I'm not sure what else to say.

 

[Agema]

Doesn't the kingdom still owe a ridiculous amount of money to the Iron Bank now? Whoever wins the throne probably inherits those debts also.

No. The reason being is that given Cersei had barely army left after years of war, the writers needed to explain how Cersei could have a meaningful force to resist Dany. Consequently, they made the convenient plot device of sacking Highgarden and carting the money off to pay back the Iron Bank, thereby allowing the throne to hire the Golden Company. Who, conveniently enough, don't need to be paid now either as they're a bunch of charred corpses.

I'm not an expert in medieval finance, but it strikes me sacking a castle - even (presumably) with the Tyrell's treasury - is unlikely to be sufficient pay off a crushingly massive national debt. Nor am I very convinced that - even with a spot of treachery from the Tarlys - the Lannisters casually stroll into just about the only area of Westeros with a major army left and sack its major castle without a very protracted siege.