Game of thrones: why is it so WRONG.?

[Kukakkau]

In the third book she kills the ticker and his men in an inn with the hound, she reclaims needle during this fight. How can she fight them in the tv series if they're already dead?

This whole thing is going to have to be spoiler tagged

Spoiler

Similar to this I noticed some things about the scene where Renly dies:
1 - His armour is removed, it can't be seen as inhuman when he his throat is cut through the gorget
2 - There isn't any mystery about the shadow, it's a big black human shape instead of a fleeting shadow. Also Stannis is willingly a part of the killing...when he is meant to frown on kinslaying
3 - Brienne kills the guards who come in as opposed to only defending herself

Now these things combined mean it is impossible for Brienne to be seen as innocent later on when she needs to be and hell even if she is she still cut down the guards.

I just can't watch the TV show it makes things feel really dumbed down and irrational. The battle of the wolfswood has no explained strategy just "oh hey we beat Jaime out of nowhere", Halfhand attacks Jon Snow for no reason instead of making Jon kill him to gain the wildlings trust, Theon in Winterfell condenses things down so much that Rodrik must have teleorted back and I don't even think Ramsay is in it as Reek.

Although I truly lost my shit when in the first season Joffrey KNOWS he is an incestral bastard instead of it being hidden from him and he is the one to order the killing of Robert's bastards, not Cersei. Which undermines the plot later on pretty damn strongly

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Other theories of mine (massive spoilers)

Spoiler

-Jamie kills cersei
-Arya can't quite pick up the nihlism of the house of black and white. Because black and white are stark colours.
-Jon's the third dragon. i suspect he gets the white one. That Reed guy will tell him what happened in the tower of joy. or perhaps a weirwood witnessed a confesion
- Jon's not fucking dead. Or perhaps he gets a new body at some point.

with Less founded evidence, i'm also going to say that:
i suspect gendry becomes an important character for arya at some point. Though there's a chance she's sent against daenerys.
Tyrion gets the rock. he's loved too much to not too.
sansa learns a lot from littlefinger.
Varys will die. Though i expect him to meet daenerys first.
Rickon is crazy.
Brienne/jamie is saved by the shout of 'arya'
Victarion will lose his fleet to daenerys

I'm probably forgetting a few things. haven't read the last three books in a while

i don't know why there's a faceless man infiltrating the maesters though. could someone explain why?

Spoiler: Agree, Massive spoilers, stay out if you've not read all books currently out

Agreed on Jaime/Cersei, unless it's Robert Strong that does the deed. You can also see the Robert Strong/Hound confrontation coming a mile off.

Jon is evidently a Targaryen/the third Dragon, yeah. The hints about him being Lyanna/Rhaegar's son weren't evident on a first read but after multiple re-reads are ACHINGLY obvious.

Jon is obviously not going to fully die. Melisandre is right there. At worst he gets the same treatment Dondarrion got.

I still expect Sandor/Sansa to get reunited at some point, but I'm not entirely sure how or why. I feel like their shared arc never really got closure.

Rickon is feral, not crazy. Although who the hell knows what's gone on during his time on Skagos. Why Osha thought THAT was a good idea...

It seems evident to me that Dany is going to use the Iron Fleet to transport her army to Westeros, yeah. Whether she does it in alliance with them, or in thrall to them, or in charge of them, remains to be seen.

Someone significant is gonna get Greyscale. Possibly Tyrion.

And I still think Jon and Dany fall in love and the Nissa Nissa/Azor Ahai thing gets repeated, and that's the penultimate tragedy before victory is finally achieved.

 

[Ishal]

The Walking Dead and Dexter both do this as well. If they were verbatim adaptations, what need would anyone have for the book?

I don't think anyone is asking for a verbatim adaptation. It wouldn't be possible, not without a show that is hundreds of hours long.

There's a great distance between staying in absolute lockstep with the novels and changing things just to change things, and doing a bad job of it.

And I wouldn't hold up "The Walking Dead" as a successful example of anything. If there is a show on television with more dire pacing problems than Game of Thrones it's The Walking Dead.

I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?

On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.

Honestly I can't be too angry with what they have done yet. I see the small changes they are making as opportunities to save money. Such as...

Spoiler

Edric Storm not being in the series, and Melisendre apparently going after Gendry instead. At least thats what I'm guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds expensive to bring in a new actor only to have him on screen for 2 episodes only to kill them off right away.

I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.

I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.

Spoiler

1) I heard they don't really like Stannis so he might get the shaft even more than he already has. Which is unfortunate since he's probably my favorite character.

2) I don't think the Red Wedding is going to live up to the way it was in the books. I just can't see them doing that all on TV whether its HBO or not. Also, Having Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Bolton seems to have ticked off a few people, but there was no way they were going to get someone really ugly to play his part. On TV even the ugly people tend to be pretty. I'm not complaining though, I think Iwan Rheon is going to be great, he can really play a psycho.

3) I don't see Tyrion strangling Shae in the show. Book Shae, perhaps, but this isn't book Shae. I'm going to bet that Tywin kills her and then Tyrion kills Tywin in a fit of rage. Or something to that effect. Perhaps I could be wrong.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?

I could talk all day on the subject of how disappointing The Walking Dead is. At this point I think I'm watching it as a form of self-punishment. There are these occasional good episodes, or good fragments of an episode, that keep you coming back for more disappointment.

Long story short: Horrible acting/writing for the character of Andrea, a completely impotent and ineffectual antagonist in the form of the Governor, a sloppy or non-existent arc for Merle and a host of poorly inserted secondary characters made the bulk of season 3 straight up through the finale an agonizing slog. It's just not a very good show.

On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.

Ah, a fellow audio-booker. How are you enjoying the narration? I have to say, I'd heard Roy Dotrice was all kinds of awesome for books 1-3, but I only ever heard him do book 5, and it was...not good. The guy does 75 different voices, all of which seem to be a variation on "Crazy Irish Pirate".

Spoiler

Edric Storm not being in the series, and Melisendre apparently going after Gendry instead. At least thats what I'm guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds expensive to bring in a new actor only to have him on screen for 2 episodes only to kill them off right away.

I'd heard that too. I'm going to withhold judgment on it until I see the result, but it is quite a deviation.

I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.

Without getting into too much speculation about future events, I think Dany's role in the books is evidently pretty significant. Her chapters have been pretty aimless for a while now, but that's Martin losing himself in his own plot.

I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.

Spoiler

1) I heard they don't really like Stannis so he might get the shaft even more than he already has. Which is unfortunate since he's probably my favorite character.

2) I don't think the Red Wedding is going to live up to the way it was in the books. I just can't see them doing that all on TV whether its HBO or not. Also, Having Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Bolton seems to have ticked off a few people, but there was no way they were going to get someone really ugly to play his part. On TV even the ugly people tend to be pretty. I'm not complaining though, I think Iwan Rheon is going to be great, he can really play a psycho.

3) I don't see Tyrion strangling Shae in the show. Book Shae, perhaps, but this isn't book Shae. I'm going to bet that Tywin kills her and then Tyrion kills Tywin in a fit of rage. Or something to that effect. Perhaps I could be wrong.

Spoiler

1. Where'd you hear that about Stannis? He really doesn't have much to do in SoS, but I quite liked his story line in ADWD. I thought it was one of the strongest parts of the book.

2. Yeah, I'm worried about this too. The Jeyne/Talissa swap, for one, has some pretty significant implications for the Red Wedding.

3. As long as he does a good job I'm not really assed about what Ramsay looks like. It's a tough role to play well. He needs to be psychotic without being "psychotic", you know? The audience needs to loathe AND fear him.

4. Yeah, I hear you. I don't see it happening either. They seem obsessed with re-writing Shae into some kind of a sympathetic character, and Dinklage's popularity means they're unlikely to let their "leading man" throttle a sympathetic girl. Shae's re-write is one of my major irritations with the show at the moment. I think the actress portraying her has been sketchy at best, and I think making her a more well rounded character (and NOT having Tyrion dispatch her) robs Tyrion of essential character rounding. The fact Shae was a greedy, manipulative brat spoke to Tyrion's vulnerability and poor judgment when it came to romance, and her death was traumatic for him.

Oh well. Apparently it's "fun" when they change things. Herp derp.

 

[Innocent Flower]

You're not supposed to like stannis. I seriously doubt stannis will get the shaft. He's fucking important.
The red wedding... I don't realy see why not. Then again i can't remember anything being so bad in that that they did't show it.
I think you're right about your third point. Though it'd still be more moving to have him kill shae.


One thing to note is that i don't like the direction they're going with theon. Ironborn don't seem the type to use spies at all. Escaping and defiance also ruins the brokenness that he's supposed to have later on.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

A great deal of adaptation was necessary to make Lord of the Rings suitable for the big screen. Whole scenes and characters chopped before filming even began, dialogue shifted and given to other characters, etc. The end result was three of the best adventure movies ever. Have you got a crypt's worth of bones to pick about that as well?

Did you see The Avengers? Are you going to tell us Thor should be this fellow [img/]http://media1.shmoop.com/images/mythology/thor-hammer-attack.jpeg[/img] instead of Chris Hemsworth in magi-tech armor? Or that Hulk should be Frankenstein's monster or Mr Hyde rather than an adaptation of both?

What is this thing people have, this defect that makes them say, "I hate this with every fiber of my being....but give me more!" If adaptation bothers you so much, maybe you could, I dunno, stop watching the series?

Actually, I despise the LotR films. They completely misrepresent Tolkien's vision, focusing only on the warfare in the plot, rather than the moral, social, and anti-industrial narratives Tolkien weaved. The only reason that the LotR films were allowed to be made was because his estate wanted the films to be made before the stories became Public Domain, while they still had some control, which the studio is still attempting to violate with things like the LotR slot-machines.

Avengers was mediocre at best, really.

I do not watch the Game of Thrones TV show, and I walked out in disgust of Fellowship of the Ring halfway through and did not pay to see the other films. So do not ask me why "I don't just stop watching?" because I have indeed. I have a more pertinent question for you, though, why don't you grow up and acquire some better aesthetics?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Spoiler

You're not supposed to like stannis. I seriously doubt stannis will get the shaft. He's fucking important.
The red wedding... I don't realy see why not. Then again i can't remember anything being so bad in that that they did't show it.
I think you're right about your third point. Though it'd still be more moving to have him kill shae.


One thing to note is that i don't like the direction they're going with theon. Ironborn don't seem the type to use spies at all. Escaping and defiance also ruins the brokenness that he's supposed to have later on.

You might want to employ spoiler tags for some of this. There's no telling if everyone in the thread has read the books.

Spoiler

From ADWD, Ramsay often indulged in little "escapes" for his prisoners, at which point he'd hunt them down and kill/recapture them. This one is going on an awfully long time and seems needlessly complicated, but it is not out of character for Ramsay or Theon, and in some ways is loyal to the books. He didn't instantly get broken. It was a long process of psychological torture.

 

[MopBox]

Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?

They're attempting to make Catelyn more sympathetic. It seems to be an ongoing theme with the television show. Tyrion, Cersei, Shae, etc. have all had the same treatment.

 

[MopBox]

Did anyone else take issue with the added bit of dialogue in the second episode of the new season when Cat was pattering on about Jon Snow and the pox? By the gods! Why was that a necessary addition?

They're attempting to make Catelyn more sympathetic. It seems to be an ongoing theme with the television show. Tyrion, Cersei, Shae, etc. have all had the same treatment.

And another thing!!! Why didn't they cut off Peter Dinklage's nose for realsies!?!

Yeah... but in all seriousness. I understand the effort to humanize the characters a touch more, but I suspect that the audience that Cat's extra exposition was aimed at probably already forgot that she hates Jon Snow. They hadn?t brought it up in the series in like two seasons.

 

[Ishal]

I would agree with this. Plus, I feel like it may have lost a lot of viewers with the let down of a season finale. I didn't think it was too bad, but then I stopped watching it midway through and missed like 3 episodes. What did you think of the finale?

I could talk all day on the subject of how disappointing The Walking Dead is. At this point I think I'm watching it as a form of self-punishment. There are these occasional good episodes, or good fragments of an episode, that keep you coming back for more disappointment.

Long story short: Horrible acting/writing for the character of Andrea, a completely impotent and ineffectual antagonist in the form of the Governor, a sloppy or non-existent arc for Merle and a host of poorly inserted secondary characters made the bulk of season 3 straight up through the finale an agonizing slog. It's just not a very good show.

On to the subject of Game of Thrones, I recently purchased the audio books for the series and am about to finish A Dance with Dragons.

Ah, a fellow audio-booker. How are you enjoying the narration? I have to say, I'd heard Roy Dotrice was all kinds of awesome for books 1-3, but I only ever heard him do book 5, and it was...not good. The guy does 75 different voices, all of which seem to be a variation on "Crazy Irish Pirate".

Spoiler

Edric Storm not being in the series, and Melisendre apparently going after Gendry instead. At least thats what I'm guessing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds expensive to bring in a new actor only to have him on screen for 2 episodes only to kill them off right away.

I'd heard that too. I'm going to withhold judgment on it until I see the result, but it is quite a deviation.

I just don't see why everyone likes Dany so much, I guess I can see where female readers might like her but every single time I listen to what she's doing I just wonder why she isn't dead. She's a loose end, and I don't like loose ends.

Without getting into too much speculation about future events, I think Dany's role in the books is evidently pretty significant. Her chapters have been pretty aimless for a while now, but that's Martin losing himself in his own plot.

I'm curious to see what happens with the rest of the season though, the two guys in charge wanted to film this season most of all so I hope its going to be good. But I'm preparing myself for somewhat of a let down.

Spoiler

1) I heard they don't really like Stannis so he might get the shaft even more than he already has. Which is unfortunate since he's probably my favorite character.

2) I don't think the Red Wedding is going to live up to the way it was in the books. I just can't see them doing that all on TV whether its HBO or not. Also, Having Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Bolton seems to have ticked off a few people, but there was no way they were going to get someone really ugly to play his part. On TV even the ugly people tend to be pretty. I'm not complaining though, I think Iwan Rheon is going to be great, he can really play a psycho.

3) I don't see Tyrion strangling Shae in the show. Book Shae, perhaps, but this isn't book Shae. I'm going to bet that Tywin kills her and then Tyrion kills Tywin in a fit of rage. Or something to that effect. Perhaps I could be wrong.

Spoiler

1. Where'd you hear that about Stannis? He really doesn't have much to do in SoS, but I quite liked his story line in ADWD. I thought it was one of the strongest parts of the book.

2. Yeah, I'm worried about this too. The Jeyne/Talissa swap, for one, has some pretty significant implications for the Red Wedding.

3. As long as he does a good job I'm not really assed about what Ramsay looks like. It's a tough role to play well. He needs to be psychotic without being "psychotic", you know? The audience needs to loathe AND fear him.

4. Yeah, I hear you. I don't see it happening either. They seem obsessed with re-writing Shae into some kind of a sympathetic character, and Dinklage's popularity means they're unlikely to let their "leading man" throttle a sympathetic girl. Shae's re-write is one of my major irritations with the show at the moment. I think the actress portraying her has been sketchy at best, and I think making her a more well rounded character (and NOT having Tyrion dispatch her) robs Tyrion of essential character rounding. The fact Shae was a greedy, manipulative brat spoke to Tyrion's vulnerability and poor judgment when it came to romance, and her death was traumatic for him.

Oh well. Apparently it's "fun" when they change things. Herp derp.

Oh hellz to the yeah Roy Dotrice was the man in the first 3 books. I made a mistake up there. I didn't buy all of them, a buddy of mine gave me the first three off a flash drive but I liked them so much I purchased the other two. A lot of people got ornery when he changed some of the voices in the later books. I'll admit it was a bit jarring but I wasn't about to complain, he's pretty damn good, and I just came off listening to some Wheel of Time audiobooks by Michael Kramer who was pretty good too.

Spoiler

Supposedly in an interview one of them said they weren't too fond of Stannis' character. I don't know if its true or not since I haven't heard it myself, but my inner pessimist is inclined to agree. It seems in a lot of these books nobody (including the authors sometimes) likes that characters I like. Lots of people seem to think Melisendre is controlling him and is behind him burning people alive. I never really saw it that way, and I'm really not that bothered by it either. The worst things Stannis has done pales in comparison with likes of Joffrey and Ramsay/Roose Bolton.

I really, really like his character. He's presented as the underdog and is uncompromisingly just. I'm not a fan of the Game of Thrones, the game of political intrigue I mean, I think a lot of it is petty and ultimately comes back to bite everyone. I LOVED the fact that Varys and all the others in King's Landing were absolutely terrified of Stannis because they knew he'd burn them ALL alive. Also, from what my friend has told me, he meets with a banker from Bravos... which means what Tyrion said in the recent episode is going to come to pass. Stannis is losing money, but the Iron Bank of Bravos looks to be in a position to finance him against Cersei and everyone else. I'd love to see him win, but I doubt he will... he's too old and borderline "good" enough that I worry RR Martin has something horrible planned for him. I could see him fighting a horde of wights and going down fighting believing he is Azor Ahai, or something.

The actor playing Ramsay can indeed look terrifying if he wants to be, but also innocent too. He was in a show I watched a while back with a friend from Uni who got British channels in his apt. I'm interested in his character for a few reasons, the main one is his apparent use as a tool by RR Martin to comment on rape and how its effects go beyond the actually act of the rape. I say apparent because that never struck me when reading it, so it might be a bit of a reach. I don't know about you, but I tend to be somewhat dense when it comes to veiled commentary on social issues in stuff like this.

The thing with Tyrion is that he isn't supposed to be a paragon of virtue, right?. I thought a main theme of these books was to strip away the "good" and "evil" labels and say that people can be both. That is to say, one isn't good in these books, they are simply less of a dick than everyone else, but a dick nonetheless. I would agree with the assessment of Tyrion needing that moment, but like you said he is the "leading man" of sorts. Also, I feel it would be redundant to make Tyrion hate Tywin more, he has plenty enough reason to hate him and he hasn't even been blamed for Joffrey's death yet. The actress playing Shae is... off putting to me. I'm not quite sure what accent she is supposed to have, but it just sounds off. All I'll say is she doesn't nail it like the actress playing Cersei does.

As for the changes and people liking them, I'm somewhat neutral on that. I don't overtly HATE any of them.. yet. I did like the introduction to the brotherhood without banners. Thoros is one of my favorite characters, just incredibly well written. I liked how they were introduced as jovial and somewhat carefree. We'll see what happens when Beric Dondarrion shows up.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Oh hellz to the yeah Roy Dotrice was the man in the first 3 books. I made a mistake up there. I didn't buy all of them, a buddy of mine gave me the first three off a flash drive but I liked them so much I purchased the other two. A lot of people got ornery when he changed some of the voices in the later books. I'll admit it was a bit jarring but I wasn't about to complain, he's pretty damn good, and I just came off listening to some Wheel of Time audiobooks by Michael Kramer who was pretty good too.

Spoiler

Supposedly in an interview one of them said they weren't too fond of Stannis' character. I don't know if its true or not since I haven't heard it myself, but my inner pessimist is inclined to agree. It seems in a lot of these books nobody (including the authors sometimes) likes that characters I like. Lots of people seem to think Melisendre is controlling him and is behind him burning people alive. I never really saw it that way, and I'm really not that bothered by it either. The worst things Stannis has done pales in comparison with likes of Joffrey and Ramsay/Roose Bolton.

I really, really like his character. He's presented as the underdog and is uncompromisingly just. I'm not a fan of the Game of Thrones, the game of political intrigue I mean, I think a lot of it is petty and ultimately comes back to bite everyone. I LOVED the fact that Varys and all the others in King's Landing were absolutely terrified of Stannis because they knew he'd burn them ALL alive. Also, from what my friend has told me, he meets with a banker from Bravos... which means what Tyrion said in the recent episode is going to come to pass. Stannis is losing money, but the Iron Bank of Bravos looks to be in a position to finance him against Cersei and everyone else. I'd love to see him win, but I doubt he will... he's too old and borderline "good" enough that I worry RR Martin has something horrible planned for him. I could see him fighting a horde of wights and going down fighting believing he is Azor Ahai, or something.

The actor playing Ramsay can indeed look terrifying if he wants to be, but also innocent too. He was in a show I watched a while back with a friend from Uni who got British channels in his apt. I'm interested in his character for a few reasons, the main one is his apparent use as a tool by RR Martin to comment on rape and how its effects go beyond the actually act of the rape. I say apparent because that never struck me when reading it, so it might be a bit of a reach. I don't know about you, but I tend to be somewhat dense when it comes to veiled commentary on social issues in stuff like this.

The thing with Tyrion is that he isn't supposed to be a paragon of virtue. I thought a main theme of these books was to strip away the "good" and "evil" labels and say that people can be both. That is to say, one isn't good in these books, they are simply less of a dick than everyone else, but a dick nonetheless. I would agree with the assessment of Tyrion needing that moment, but like you said he is the "leading man" of sorts. Also, I feel it would be redundant to make Tyrion hate Tywin more, he has plenty enough reason to hate him and he hasn't even been blamed for Joffrey's death yet. The actress playing Shae is... off putting to me. I'm not quite sure what accent she is supposed to have, but it just sounds off. All I'll say is she doesn't nail it like the actress playing Cersei does.

As for the changes and people liking them, I'm somewhat neutral on that. I don't overtly HATE any of them.. yet. I did like the introduction to the brotherhood without banners. Thoros is one of my favorite characters, just incredibly well written. I liked how they were introduced as jovial and somewhat carefree. We'll see what happens when Beric Dondarrion shows up.

I didn't HATE his voice acting performance, but it was...pretty out there. All the girls (and Tyrion) sound like leprechauns. I think I'm spoiled by Stephen Pacey's amazing reading of First Law.

Spoiler

I recall Donal Noye stating that Robert was the true steel, and that Stannis was too brittle to be a good leader. I think that bears out. Like Ned, Stannis's inflexible adherence to law and rule paralyzes and limits him. And unlike Ned, there doesn't seem to be a river of compassion underlying it...Stannis is a hard, cold man. His ruthless single-mindedness makes him a frightening opponent, but I wouldn't say he was "good" in any real sense.

It'll be interesting to see how they evolve Ramsay. I don't know about rape specifically, but Martin certainly used him to good effect to show the kind of damage that can be done to the human spirit through torture and manipulation. Ramsay Snow makes Joffrey look like Hot Pie. I don't think the worst of his many excesses can be brought to the screen without giving the show an NC-17 rating, but hopefully they can establish him through implied violence. I found the Theon/Reek chapters in ADWD particularly hard to read.

Shae sucks. Her character re-write sucks, and the actress playing her isn't doing anything to make the character stand out. If she's not dead by the end of next season I'll be greatly disappointed.

I hate Shae's changes, I hate the Jeyne/Talissa swap, and I hate that they took Sandor/Sansa's interaction and gave it to Littlefinger. Aside from that, I've grudgingly tolerated the changes, even though some of them were awful (Qarth) and others butchered the pacing (Arya).

It's important to show the Brotherhood as lighthearted and cheery. It makes their eventual decline that much more poignant, and by the time Stoneheart has the lead they're downright sinister.

 

[El Danny]

All you guys complaining about the changes in the TV series do realise George RR Martin plays a major role in the shows plot development? Most changes are ran though George before they're written in, or are his ideas to begin with.

That's not saying much. If you paid attention to his blog leading up to the release of the series, you'd have noticed that Martin had a major case of the fanboys going on. He seems absolutely tickled pink to see his material up on the screen, and I suspect he's not too arsed one way or the other about changes. That's fine if he approves the changes...they're his books and ultimately it's his show as well...but that doesn't make them good changes.

Not arsed about the changes? Despite the fact he turned down an offer to turn the ASoIaF into movies before HBO offered him a contract on the basis that a movie series wouldn't have enough screen length do it justice?

 

[Johnny Impact]

I have a more pertinent question for you, though, why don't you grow up and acquire some better aesthetics?

Dear diary: today I was told off by Some Misanthrope On The Internet. I may never sleep soundly again.

(You'll have to imagine the tear-smudged ink.)

 

[Nepenthe87]

I've already got a truck of theories for the books. (and yeah, there's far to much foreshadowing when it comes to a few characters. I'm sure of the fates of Cersei (Exactly sure), all the 'starks' but rickon and sansa. Daenerys i expect to have live.

Prophecies are the worst plot device.

Since you're obviously a book reader...

Spoiler

On the subject of Dany...you don't think there's a strong chance she's going to end up being Nissa Nissa to Jon Snow's Azor Ahai?

I actually have a very different theory on that...

Spoiler

Dany is the Azhor Azhai and Drogo was her Nissa Nissa. He did have to die for her to have her dragons, just like Nissa Nissa had to die for Azhor Azhai's flaming sword, and she was born in smoke and salt (on dragonstone island). Maester Aemon talks about how a dragon's gender is interchangeable and the prince could be a princess if it needed to be. although maybe I'm looking at things too symbolically.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I actually have a very different theory on that...

Spoiler

Dany is the Azhor Azhai and Drogo was her Nissa Nissa. He did have to die for her to have her dragons, just like Nissa Nissa had to die for Azhor Azhai's flaming sword, and she was born in smoke and salt (on dragonstone island). Maester Aemon talks about how a dragon's gender is interchangeable and the prince could be a princess if it needed to be. although maybe I'm looking at things too symbolically.

Spoiler

That's a good theory, but how do you account for the prophecy that clearly points at Jon? The whole "He is the prince who was promised, and his is the song of Ice (Lyanna Stark) and Fire (Rhaegar Targaryen)" bit? It seems inevitable that he is the central figure in the narrative.

 

[Nepenthe87]

I actually have a very different theory on that...

Spoiler

Dany is the Azhor Azhai and Drogo was her Nissa Nissa. He did have to die for her to have her dragons, just like Nissa Nissa had to die for Azhor Azhai's flaming sword, and she was born in smoke and salt (on dragonstone island). Maester Aemon talks about how a dragon's gender is interchangeable and the prince could be a princess if it needed to be. although maybe I'm looking at things too symbolically.

Spoiler

That's a good theory, but how do you account for the prophecy that clearly points at Jon? The whole "He is the prince who was promised, and his is the song of Ice (Lyanna Stark) and Fire (Rhaegar Targaryen)" bit? It seems inevitable that he is the central figure in the narrative.

That only works if...

Spoiler

If you believe Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son (which I don't, really, it's a compelling theory, but im not sold on it). Little more than Lyanna forcing Ned to secrecy points to him being their child. If Rhaegar believed he was the prince or was at least one of the three heads of the dragon why would he and lyanna want to keep that a secret? To me, Jon hasn't seemed to be terribly central to the plot IMO (his fate is left ambiguous at the end of ADWD), he could be dead in The Winds of Winter for all we know. To me he was mostly the viewpoint with which to view the problems on the wall, but now there is Melisandre and maybe other character whom we can see the events at the wall through. Even though she is far away from Westeros Daenerys seems to be the one has the most "plot armor," and her story seems to echo Aegon the conqueror.

if he does survive, and is shown to be Rhaegar's son I still doubt he is the prince that was promised. Maybe he is one of the three heads of the dragon along with Aegon VI, if the heads have to be of Targaryen blood.

to me Dany fits the bill of the prophechy more than anyone else, regardless of her bloodline.

Aemon talks about how a dragon's gender is interchangable, and if a Targeryen (who consider themselves actual dragons in human form) is the prince that was promised then it could be either a prince or a princess.

Besides, I doubt his stark honor would allow him to kill Daenerys for a sword, especially if they fell in love somehow. Azhor Azhai didnt just kill anyone for his flaming sword, he killed the person he cherished most in the world (as did Dany kill Drogo when she got her dragons). With how much Dany feels the Starks are to blame for her exile, along with the Baretheons, and Lannisters, I doubt she would warm up to Jon.

 

[Innocent Flower]

Solid theories. but you've gotta remember how easy it is to explain how crazy aerys was. Jon can't blame her for killing his grandfather and uncle that he never knew. she can't realy blame him for killing her crazy father. They're almost the same age . If daenerys has a mistrust for Starks, it's because of Jorah Mormont.