Gamers make bad feminists

[Rude as HECK]

Eh? Really? This kindof stuff has been around since before the internet. Using sex to sell your games? a cheap selling point, how isn't it logical to see a cheap marketing ploy to cover up a game's faults. Pick up an old EGM mag from the early 90s and you'll see them bitching about booth babes and BMXXX.

As for what Miracle said, how the hell is that reactionary to Hitman? Poorly worded yes, but in no way deals with the issue of feminism and the use of sex in video games.

Don't jump at shadows on the wall, not all comments relating to sex have to be tied to the current feminism argument. Cry wolf when Jim and Miracle start to ask for women to be uniformly dressed in a way not to disturb the general audience, not when they call out issues like a game designer trying to make a few more sales by flashing a tit or their own personal distaste in a character.

Well, the comments are about the E3 presentation, not Hitman. Hitman is just the day an insincere, ill thought out attempt at feminism became the cool thing to have.

Again, my issue is that manifestly insincere and reactive claims are being used, rather than the content of those claims.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

it's not as if women are treated like shit in society so who gives a fuck about feminism?

They're not treated equal, that's for sure.

 

[iLikeHippos]

Eeeeeeehhhhhh....

Make a gamertag on xbox live with a very "game-y gurl xD" name, play for about a month, and you'll get a bit more insight. And that's not mentioning all other harassments done behind closed doors on workplaces, homes, etc.

Just saying. Shit happens to this day.

OT; It's been a long time since I've ever actually seen people complain about a freaking trailer that tells nearly nothing about the game. It's just a showpiece, and not the game itself. I find the people 'boycotting' the GAME for its TRAILER are being fairly ridiculous, but it is their time, patience and money so who am I to complain?

I wouldn't change my tone if it were 6 men in latex sexualized and ready to kill one man outside a motel. But then again, mayhap I am of that crowd o' gamers that can't find anything odd about this kind of thing anymore. Because it certainly is odd; just not provoking me in the slightest.

everybody gets treated like shit on xbox live, the only difference is the material they use against you.

it is a cesspool of hatred.

Let nothing else be said; Xbox Live holds its fair share of vile language aimed at just about anyone showing distinctive 'flaws', but the ones getting the most flak are the female community in this day with gender-specific slurs, hate and even death-threats, uncommon for males to such a huge extent. We are far from problem free, which is why we should not discount active harassment of the charts, and especially discounting feminism as fruitless in their grounds, what with the gender-specific harassment.

It would be slightly more okay, and I would agree with you, if girls were merely called "noobs" and "assholes" just like any other player, but it goes far beyond that at times.

 

[Ickorus]

Thats not true I am an amazing feminist. I fucking love tits and am all for giving them equal rights.

Then you're not a feminist but an equalist. Feminists, these days, are only all about women's rights. No longer about just equal rights. Or rather, feminists these days are all about getting special treatment just so they can 'feel' equal to men even though they do less work, are weaker, etc. (Not saying women all do less work or are weaker, just that the ones that are want to still feel equal for doing/achieving less.)

So yea, you're an equalist! Same with me.

Sounds like someone is getting their definitions from fox news. Actually feminism is about equality, people that say its about female dominance are getting their definition from right wing idiots who seek to discredit it.

I actually really like the term 'equalist' (Never heard of the term before just now, by the way) it implies that you support all equality as a whole rather than a single facet of it and I think that's far better than simply calling yourself a feminist which suggests a bias towards one form of equality over another.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Am I in before sexually frustrated men comments?

 

[jklinders]

Taking a couple of tweets out of context and using them as examples to label the entire gaming community as sexist...Yeeeeaaaaahhhhh. I've got my own opinion of where the feminist movement has gone in recent years but that really is not what this is about.

Is the trailer offensive? I dunno. The game series at times seems to have used Christian imagery in odd ways from the small amount of dabbling I did before I realized that the Hitman games were more puzzler games than anything else. This seems to be a more extreme example of it. Likely concocted by a marketing team. And Guess what? It worked.

I can already hear a few people going "Huh?" so obviously it is time for jklinders first Escapist lesson on the what should be blatantly obvious.

Game trailers, like any trailer in any medium exist for one purpose only, to get people talking about and thinking about the product advertised. It is a form of advertising. The fact that I am here typing in response to a concern about it when this game means nothing to me indicates that it is successful. The trailer says nothing at all about the game but the entire internet is on fire thinking about it, good or bad does not matter here. It's advertising. It's been close to a decade since the Hitman series has been even remotely relevant. Now here we are thinking we are talking about whether the trailer is important but what we are really doing is padding Google search results with more hits about the game's existence. So offensive or not is really quite irrelevant. What was relevant was exposure.

As for "gamers make bad feminists," every time I see feminism brought up in these fora, it is the equivalent of tossing gasoline on a fire. It cannot possibly come to a good end because "feminism" means different things to different people no matter how we would like it not be so. So instead of using such a loaded term we should endeavor to try to frame the question differently.

 

[Darkmantle]

Sounds like someone is getting their definitions from fox news. Actually feminism is about equality, people that say its about female dominance are getting their definition from right wing idiots who seek to discredit it.

I'm getting my definitions from personal experience. The feminists and equalists I've met are as I've described them. Plus, here in the Netherlands we don't really have those right wing idiots you guys have in America.

Apparently you do since a feminist is about equality, people that think its about female domination are getting their definition from the right wing.

you know that lady who opened the first woman's shelter? That brave feminist icon?

yeah her, did you know she also wanted to open a man's shelter shortly after?

do you know who stopped her?


the feminist movement.





I wish I was kidding bud, don't count the other side of the argument out withour debating it.

 

[orangeban]

Oh Heavens, you've mentioned feminism, on the Escapist, what have you done?

I've already said all I want to say about bigotry within the gaming community and about the Hitman trailer specifically in previous threads, so I've not much else to say except yeah, gamers usually aren't stellar examples of feminists, usually because most of them aren't feminists.

 

[JEBWrench]

Well, the comments are about the E3 presentation, not Hitman. Hitman is just the day an insincere, ill thought out attempt at feminism became the cool thing to have.

Again, my issue is that manifestly insincere and reactive claims are being used, rather than the content of those claims.

Oh no, the Internet White Knight phenomenon is much much older than the Hitman trailer.

Everyone knows people in general will feign sincerity to any societal issues if they think it will endear themselves towards persons of their preferred gender(s).

 

[Melon Hunter]

Am I in before sexually frustrated men comments?

Are you mad?! This thread has already reached its second page! Of course you won't be in before that, or even before the bombastic, offensive counter-generalisation of gamers all being sexist!

OT: Tweets are tweets. They're usually meant to convey something mildly amusing about a situation, not be taken as a inviolable declaration of your view on the world. As someone said above, people have different views on what constitutes feminism, and therefore get riled up enormously when someone challenges that view. Flinging around such a broad term as 'feminism' really isn't going to get this discussion anywhere.

 

[MetalMagpie]

Is it possible to add "feminism" and "sexism" to Godwin's Law?

Discussions about either of the above lead to nothing but arguments (mostly over semantics). Might as well just killed them as soon as they arise.

 

[jklinders]

Is it possible to add "feminism" and "sexism" to Godwin's Law?

Discussions about either of the above lead to nothing but arguments (mostly over semantics). Might as well just killed them as soon as they arise.

I like this.

How does one do this though? Is there a vote? How these debating rules come about is a bit of a mystery to me.

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

The woman are not real, It is a work of fiction, Games are an art form.

There wouldn't be outcry if a woman was punched/raped/dressed as a strippernunassissin in a book, movie or TV program (assuming it was aired at the right time).

I think you're missing the point.
This material is what is being used to MARKET and SELL the game. This is supposed to entice people to part with their hard earned cash and the best way Ubisoft can think of doing that is by having some guy brutalise some fetishised nuns.

It's not like they're trying to do something artistic and work with some heavy subject matter, they're just making violence porn.

If I were to make a game trailer that involved a typical looking white male character walking into a neighbourhood full of stereotypical "black gangsta" types where the white guy proceeds to punch them all to death in slow motion, are you telling me some people might not go "hmm, that could be perceived as slightly racist"

Or how about an actual example from the EU
<youtube=YkLkSHlSvTA>

Some white girl is under threat by scary foreigners and she's saved when more white clones join together...

 

[jklinders]

Well if any political body needs propaganda on it's side right now it's the EU. "More is better." Pretty hard not to snicker at that one seeing as allowing basketcase nations in is what is currently sinking them faster than the Titanic. The UK never looked smarter for keeping the pound than they do right now.

As for the ad, it is misguided for a few other reasons seeing as how many Europeans are proud of how multicultural they are becoming. All of this merely reinforces my point that this is about shock value and advertising rather than taking an actual stance on something.

 

[Nomanslander]

While I agree that gamers generally make bad feminists (speaking as a woman myself) I do agree with them this time. Those assassins dressed up in cliché latex porn nun costumes with buy guns. And then all of them getting beaten up by a single man. And then how some of the camera angles were done in the trailer...it's very clearly the BAD form of sexualization.

And then there's games like Bayonetta, where I think it's actually a good quality of the game. A good form of sexualizaiton. Then there's also games like DoA. I don't have a problem with such games as well, as they specifically do it for the sexy girls in bikini's and such.

But in the new Hitman? Seriously? It's just...wrong. It doesn't fit, betrays what the hitman series is about and sexualizes women in a bad way.

Peoples impressions can be subjective. Personally every time I get the notion that a scene is going for camp, I pretty much shut off that portion of my brain that might take the material in a series manner. I personally don't think there anything wrong with sexualization crossed with violence as long as it's going for camp value and inherently not meant to be focused upon as a serious fetish.

But with the new Hitman trailer I can see how people can get confused whether or not what they're seeing is meant to be campy or not considering the serious tone it also take with the cinematography and editing. But then again most movies or video games with camp since the 90s have taken that road. Like you said this isn't Bayonetta here.

Personally in the end I think there needs to be some form of video game Bechdel test. Sexualization and violence towards female characters shouldn't be frowned upon unless that's all you see the game going for. Or another words, if the game continued this trend and didn't show any other level of interaction with female character, then, and only then should it really be considered offensive. Or another words if the game seemed to be more inspired by the Frank Miller school of camp and exploitation than Tarantino, than we would have some issues here. lol

 

[Kermi]

I wanted to soapbox about the Far Cry 3 trailer myself.

I personally thing the Hitman trailer was alright. It wasn't as controversial as people are making out. People claim it sexualises violence by endorsing violence against women - women dressed as sexy nuns out of context, even though the game is called Absolution, and you can assume there are going to be some religious undertones. It's completely plausible these women represented 47's primary threat in the game. It's not a staggering leap of logic, is it? No. The correct answer is no. In particular I want you to consider that 47 takes no pleasure whatsoever in his task of defending himself.

These women were a threat. Their initial appearance was "Boom! sexy nuns!", then they unleashed fiery hell on 47, or so it seemed. Then he took them out. The violence juxtaposed the sexiness, it was supposed to shock. If you think the violence was sexual, or sexualised, it really says something about YOU, not the trailer. But a few prominent commentators ran with it, and the internet responded.

I trot out the example that if we say Lara Croft gunning down a dozen topless men we'd say nothing, that they're employing a double standard. The commentators insist "oh, women can be killed like men, that makes it equal - but this is SEXUALISED violience".

I disagree.

So I decided to play devil's advocate when I saw the Far Cry 3 trailer. Where's the outrage? The first thing you see is a topless woman. The game repeatedly flashes text at you, "fight, eat, fuck, kill" or something to that effect, stating these words over and over, drilling them in as facts, as if they are necessary for your survival.

Then it really begins. The naked woman croons seductively that you are a killer, that you are the best at killing. All those people you're murdering? They DESERVE to die. This is intercut with scenes of people being shot. Just when you think it's all over? RANDOM STRIPPER POLE. In the jungle, a woman poledancing in a bikini. For no reason that the trailer can adequately establish.

"Surely," I thought, "the people outraged at the Hitman trailer will be up in arms about this. The people who were against sexualised violence, this must be reprihensible to them, right?"

No. No outrage. I posted my thoughts on Twitter. No one could understand where I was coming from. "They're just boobs!" they say, as if I am six years old, and am unfamiliar with the idea of nudity. Then they say "oh, well no one is attacking the woman, so it's not sexual violence."

Bull. Effing. Shit.

In truth, people didn't like seeing 47 kill women. They made up a complex lie to hide this fact. The fact that they, by taking issue with the idea of women as a viable threat and a target for violence, were being sexist. They were robbing women of the right to be targets, putting them below men by wanting them removed from the line of fire.

Neither trailer upsets me. What upsets me is the hypocrisy.

 

[Guffe]

Since we are throwing stupid sweeping Generalizations based on no facts whatsoever.

Cats are shitty pets.
Cupcakes are the best source of iron.
Feminists make great objective journalists

OMG You're the best. I shall join you.

Anime is the best form of story-telling!
Men who go by the name Yahtzee are objectively the sexiest men alive!
Catherine is the only game to spark a 'real' discussion on sex...EVER!

I'll join too!!!

Coffee fights early cancercells
Rats are the filthiest animals alive
Every asian guy is a ninja



I don't really have anything regarding the topic itself only that this thread is treally confusing. I've been reading page 1 and am completely and utterly confused

 

[Ninjamedic]

Am I in before sexually frustrated men comments?

..........I honestly have no idea.

OT: So the comments of a few people speak for an entire community/demographic?

 

[jklinders]

I wanted to soapbox about the Far Cry 3 trailer myself.

I personally thing the Hitman trailer was alright. It wasn't as controversial as people are making out. People claim it sexualises violence by endorsing violence against women - women dressed as sexy nuns out of context, even though the game is called Absolution, and you can assume there are going to be some religious undertones. It's completely plausible these women represented 47's primary threat in the game. It's not a staggering leap of logic, is it? No. The correct answer is no. In particular I want you to consider that 47 takes no pleasure whatsoever in his task of defending himself.

These women were a threat. Their initial appearance was "Boom! sexy nuns!", then they unleashed fiery hell on 47, or so it seemed. Then he took them out. The violence juxtaposed the sexiness, it was supposed to shock. If you think the violence was sexual, or sexualised, it really says something about YOU, not the trailer. But a few prominent commentators ran with it, and the internet responded.

I trot out the example that if we say Lara Croft gunning down a dozen topless men we'd say nothing, that they're employing a double standard. The commentators insist "oh, women can be killed like men, that makes it equal - but this is SEXUALISED violience".

I disagree.

So I decided to play devil's advocate when I saw the Far Cry 3 trailer. Where's the outrage? The first thing you see is a topless woman. The game repeatedly flashes text at you, "fight, eat, fuck, kill" or something to that effect, stating these words over and over, drilling them in as facts, as if they are necessary for your survival.

Then it really begins. The naked woman croons seductively that you are a killer, that you are the best at killing. All those people you're murdering? They DESERVE to die. This is intercut with scenes of people being shot. Just when you think it's all over? RANDOM STRIPPER POLE. In the jungle, a woman poledancing in a bikini. For no reason that the trailer can adequately establish.

"Surely," I thought, "the people outraged at the Hitman trailer will be up in arms about this. The people who were against sexualised violence, this must be reprihensible to them, right?"

No. No outrage. I posted my thoughts on Twitter. No one could understand where I was coming from. "They're just boobs!" they say, as if I am six years old, and am unfamiliar with the idea of nudity. Then they say "oh, well no one is attacking the woman, so it's not sexual violence."

Bull. Effing. Shit.

In truth, people didn't like seeing 47 kill women. They made up a complex lie to hide this fact. The fact that they, by taking issue with the idea of women as a viable threat and a target for violence, were being sexist. They were robbing women of the right to be targets, putting them below men by wanting them removed from the line of fire.

Neither trailer upsets me. What upsets me is the hypocrisy.

Nicely put.

I agree completely. From what you posted the Farcry trailer is clearly the more "offensive" of the 2 because there is no context whatsoever for the "sex."

 

[Kahunaburger]

Is it possible to add "feminism" and "sexism" to Godwin's Law?

Discussions about either of the above lead to nothing but arguments (mostly over semantics). Might as well just killed them as soon as they arise.

Nope. Lots of things are sexist, but not a lot of things are Hitler. Just because pointing out sexism rustles jimmies doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.