Gender challenge

[ZexionSephiroth]

1. Find an empowering female video game character that's somewhat pretty, yet not unrealistically and overpoweringly sexy, with no negative implications of femininity or clichés.

Umm... I'm not the Best person to ask this... It inevitably turns out to be Rainbow Dash... or a close approximation. But, If you insist, I could probably dig something up...

Now to make it harder for myself, I'm going to avoid using the one I was going to use (Lightning, Final Fantasy XIII), and go for something I'm more... indifferent to.

Is this okay? I still haven't played the game yet. (Mirror's Edge)

Still, It'd date her, but she probably wouldn't be interested.

2. Find a sexualized male video game character that caters to both the male and female sexual fantasy.

Oh boy- this will be hard... Give me a sec..

I have no Idea who this is, other than his name is Leon, and he's from Agarest War.

So how did I come up with this guy? I don't know, intuition. Maybe it's the fact he's a skinny, but heroic looking lad. Or that he reminds me of myself.

But either way, I still only have one justification:

I obviously don't have the same idea of sexualized as some people.

 

[Angie7F]

1) i think Jill Valentine is not too feminine and cool.

2) I think Naruhashi from P4 is not to macho, good looking and probably attractive to many Japanese females and gay men with his school uniform and all...

 

[Aris Khandr]

Wait. Cammy is ridiculously proportioned?

IMG SNIP

Cammy White? Are you sure about this?

Yes, her. Why? Muscular and large boobs. Muscular women generally don't have large boobs. Her waist is also below a size 0, or at least a size 0. Her thighs are ridiculously wide, giving her too rounded a figure. And then there's the swimsuit-shaped-body-paint-that-should-pass-for-clothes outfit of course.

Cammy has some of the smallest breasts in gaming. If you think she is ridiculously proportioned, then I'm not sure how you play any fighting game with a female character.

 

[Random Argument Man]

Tifa Lockheart, FF7. She easily keeps up with the rest of the gang damage-wise, owns her own bar, is a surrogate mother to a little girl, attractive, yet reasonably proportioned.

Tifa? Reasonably proportioned? You have GOT to be kidding.

Her legs are LITERALLY 2/3 of her height, and that's not even touching her over-sized chest. There's a reason why Cloud can joke about finding an orthopedic bra while searching her house...

While her breasts and tight top might put her in the "oversexualized" category, her character has a lot of traits which would be considered feminine.

Yes, she makes sure that everyone is taken care of.

-During the crisis of sector 7, she asks Aerith to make sure that Marlene is safe while she aids Avalanche.
-When Cloud is in Limbo, she takes command of the group.
-Fight-wise, she's one of the most powerful characters in the game.
-She stood up to Sephiroth after her father's death (despite almost dying from that event).
-When Cloud is being an asshole, she puts him in his place.
-She knows that she has sexual traits and can manipulate men. However, she doesn't really like it. (A bit like James Bond with women).

Yeah, despite the boobs, Tifa is a good character.

 

[templar1138a]

1. Some time ago, I started a thread asking for examples of this very concept. Since FemShep is an RPG protagonist and is ambiguous in character, I'll go with my other example of Morrigan from Dragon Age: Origins. Yes, she wears a very revealing top, but once she casually began revealing her Hobbesan views of the world, the last thing I thought about was her side-boob.

2. From Dragon Age 2, Fenris. I mean, seriously. Small, tsundere, and looks a bit like Sephiroth. If he isn't a male sex object, I don't know who is. He had character, yes. I particularly liked when he responded well to my being facecious/sarcastic. But he wasn't as interesting as Verric.

 

[keideki]

1. I figured Lulu from FFX might fit the bill, although her dress is a little low cut she is cool, calm, collected and she knows what she wants, even if her taste in men runs a little weird (Wakka, really???)

2. I think Snow from FFXIII is perfect for this. Almost in-human in his chiseled statue-esque form and perfectly loyal no matter what. Not to mention he some how manages to maintain the perfect level of five o'clock shadow... a feat I never seem to be able to accomplish.

 

[snekadid]

1. Yuna from FFX, and Jade from Beyond Good and Evil fit this category perfectly.
Can't think of an entry for 2, sorry.

Yuna? really? YUNA is empowering? she is worthless, doing what she is told and walking to her death because everyone told her she should all so people will approve. She only gets alittle spine by the end and thats only because tidus picked her up and told her he will find a way to let her do what everyone else wants without her dying, and then after he "dies" she spends years and years trying to bring him back.

Sorry, theres alot of empowering female examples here but yuna is not one of them.

 

[Autumnflame]

Femshep. her actions speak for her and define her. not her gender.


while technically not human but male.

garrus vakarian.

hes your brother who always has your back, who is there to support you in your lowest.

 

[marche45]

Sakura's skirt length is pretty much the actual length that the standard Japanese school uniform is. And she wears shorts underneath anyway (Nitpicky, I know).

But a miniskirt still isn?t appropriate wear for combat, is it? It?s blatantly obvious that it?s just meant to be titillating. I understand that it sounds pretty dumb to talk about ?realism? in relation to a fighting game series where martial artists can throw fireballs and stuff, but even Cammy?s costume looks like it at least accommodates her body and fighting style. Fact of the matter is, there?s not any legitimate reason for why Sakura?s dressed the way she is in a fighting tournament.

The first time she appeared,she actually wasn't in a tournament.
The only time she was in a fighting tournament was in 4,and those were more like street fights then an actual formal tournament.

OT:

1 i would say Lili from Tekken.

2 Raiden from MGS.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

1. Find an empowering female video game character that's somewhat pretty, yet not unrealistically and overpoweringly sexy, with no negative implications of femininity or clichés.

Why does she have to be somewhat pretty?
Why does a fictional character have to be realistic? How do you make a character somewhat attractive?
What?s the difference between sexy and overpoweringly sexy?
Why can?t femininity have negative implications? What is a negative implication of femininity?
Why can?t a character contain a cliché? How is an empowered female not a cliché?

2. Find a sexualized male video game character that caters to both the male and female sexual fantasy.

How is a male character sexualized?
Why does this character have to cater to homosexuals as well?

 

[Lalo Lomeli]

I'm going to expand in the second challenge.

Squall from Final Fantasy.

A mopey guy, with girly features, that isn´t empowering at all, and look at how many fanfics are about him in sexual encounters.

Wile I agree that there's sexual pandering in videogames and the rest of the media, I feel that there's some logic leaps in the whole thing.

First things first to avoid sexism in videogames or any other story: depth, character, something to go beyond in their personality than having boobs and having muscles. This is the main problem in videogames, we have cardboard characters totally interchangeable from one and other. For example Squall and Lighting, they can be a guy or a girl, but you know when is a girl they are going to make it wear a skimpy outfit.

Second point, sexuality isn't sexism, this can be pretty much a character trait, and is cool as long if it gets more depth to the character, this is moviebob example, in Bayonetta that girl isn't a subject of sexism because she owns her sexuality, instead of being a sex object.

Now, another argument is "The female characters are sexist because they are what the guys want, and this male character can't be sexist because is what guys want to be", the missing part in that logic is fairly simple, then, what is that woman want?

Not taking this into discussion is almost as sexist as not having the discussion but I can't never see it (maybe we'll have some analisys of what if sexism in that video series about feminism that got so many money in Kickstart? Let's hope so, but it'll probably be what we always see pointing one character and judge it)

What woman want? What empowers them? what they lust?

Now, I would thing they are empowered by Susan B. Anthony, and they seek their getting better, and I know this is true in a lot of cases, but it can be considered the majority, we need to find the equivalent of what MOST woman want, not what the more intelligent want, (just like all this sexist talks go for that the majority of guys want).

Fortunately, we have what is the equivalent to the jingle physics to the female mind, something that you can't deny their popularity: The Twilight saga.

The characters are kind of blank states, the story isn't that great, and yet that is what they want, a lot of them, the thing is, with this story in particular, if this were acclaimed equally form boys and girls, it could be called sexist because being a vampire and a werewolf are male fantasies.

When you search for those particular cues, you're going to find it in every instance (unless of course, there's some depth), it doesn't matter if girls like it or not,if it's what guys want and empowers them, then is sexist.

In my time, the leads of empowerment for women were the Spice Girls, what they wanted were the BackStreet boys.

In a lot of cases what women want is what empowers men, and what men want empowers women.

In extracredits, they had a interesting episode of a full-on female character, something that we haven't seen yet, when the main character is a mother, and you know what, that could be very cool, something inherently female, something that we male gamers can put in their shoes and can see another spectrum of reality. And, while there isn't a lot of games where you play the role of a father, we at least have NiER.

 

[Lalo Lomeli]

Why can?t a character contain a cliché? How is an empowered female not a cliché?

I agree with you, Empowered Female has become so much of a cliche in Hollywood that has made more harm than good to the whole feminist movement, they wanted to get as far away from the damsel in distress, that they have become the ultimate badass, good at everything from fighting to quantum mechanics, always cool-headed, so perfect and ultimately boring. Again, there's no depth, it's also boring when it's a male, but they try to give them flaws.

Flaws in a character give them a lot of depth, no matter if they started as a cliche.

The best example of girls characters used in a good, interesting way, are My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

We have character born of cliche (the good student, the tomboy, the party girl, the shy one, the western working girl, the fancy one), but with characteristion and especially flaws (from stubbornness, to whiny, to downright psycho) they give more flavor and make it more entertaining. You can't change anypony, and even less change their gender without altering the whole show.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

The problem you'd have there is that, like Gordon Freeman, people would argue that she doesn't count because she's a "cipher". I.e. she doesn't have a character to bear analysis to. A silent protagonist for the player to project their own character and/or ideals onto.

For someone who apparently doesn't have a character Chell has had one of the longest, and very intensely debated, question of parentage I have ever seen.

From canon information we know that Chell is abnormally stubborn, incredibly tenacious, has an above average IQ, was abandoned by her birth parents and adopted, and copes with attempts to break her will by ignoring them in an attempt to deny them the pleasure of a response.

while not as detailed as many other character, she certainly does have some characterization that is confirmed by the game.

Right, well, I didn't know that, having not played the game in detail. I'm just going by hearsay.

I must say, though, on the subject of gay men liking overtly masculine features: As a BIsexual male that isn't true for me, I find personality and good looks in general to be faaaaaaar more appealing, I'd rather go as far as to say that hyper-masculine men are a turn-off. This may not be true for gay men, but it is for me. Kinda off-topic, but there you go

I know, it was just something that I heard, which I included in this thread for the hell of it in case anyone actually had any experience of it, or something like that.

To be fair to the instruction booklet writers, that was an accident. It was supposedly pretty late in development when one of the developers said, "Say, wouldn't it be funny if it turned out there was a woman under there?" and history was made. If so, the booklet may have been already written and printed.

Though my source of info is TV Tropes, so take it with a grain of salt.

In the Japanese manual for the original Metroid, they only used gender-neutral pronouns to refer to her. It was only in the North American and European manuals that they explicitly referred to her as male.

Sakura's skirt length is pretty much the actual length that the standard Japanese school uniform is. And she wears shorts underneath anyway (Nitpicky, I know).

But a miniskirt still isn?t appropriate wear for combat, is it? It?s blatantly obvious that it?s just meant to be titillating. I understand that it sounds pretty dumb to talk about ?realism? in relation to a fighting game series where martial artists can throw fireballs and stuff, but even Cammy?s costume looks like it at least accommodates her body and fighting style. Fact of the matter is, there?s not any legitimate reason for why Sakura?s dressed the way she is in a fighting tournament.

The first time she appeared,she actually wasn't in a tournament.
The only time she was in a fighting tournament was in 4,and those were more like street fights then an actual formal tournament.

Well, fair enough. And someone else apparently said that there's a strict rule in some high schools that students have to wear their school uniform at all times in public until they get home, or something like that.

But still, her entire characterization is being a Ryu fangirl.

1. Find an empowering female video game character that's somewhat pretty, yet not unrealistically and overpoweringly sexy, with no negative implications of femininity or clichés.

Why does she have to be somewhat pretty?
Why does a fictional character have to be realistic? How do you make a character somewhat attractive?
What?s the difference between sexy and overpoweringly sexy?
Why can?t femininity have negative implications? What is a negative implication of femininity?
Why can?t a character contain a cliché? How is an empowered female not a cliché?

They don't have to be pretty, or realistic, etc. It's just a game that I wanted to try out. Of course female characters don't have to be pretty, but I wanted examples of ones that were, but that wasn't what entirely defined them.

Admittedly, the ?empowered female? is a broad description, but that?s why I confined it to that criteria. One who isn?t all in-your-face about their badassery. Someone who?s more subtle.

2. Find a sexualized male video game character that caters to both the male and female sexual fantasy.

How is a male character sexualized?
Why does this character have to cater to homosexuals as well?

How is a male character sexualized? Go ask some women, or look at some gay porn or Tom of Finland-style artwork. Why may it be nice for a character to cater to gay men as well? Perhaps because they're an oft-neglected minority of the gamer demographic. You're asking too many questions. It's just a little experiment that I wanted to share, because I'd been thinking about it.

I hope I made things clearer to everyone.

 

[lowhat]

Tifa Lockheart, FF7. She easily keeps up with the rest of the gang damage-wise, owns her own bar, is a surrogate mother to a little girl, attractive, yet reasonably proportioned.

Tifa? Reasonably proportioned? You have GOT to be kidding.

Her legs are LITERALLY 2/3 of her height, and that's not even touching her over-sized chest. There's a reason why Cloud can joke about finding an orthopedic bra while searching her house...

While her breasts and tight top might put her in the "oversexualized" category, her character has a lot of traits which would be considered feminine.

Yes, she makes sure that everyone is taken care of.

-During the crisis of sector 7, she asks Aerith to make sure that Marlene is safe while she aids Avalanche.
-When Cloud is in Limbo, she takes command of the group.
-Fight-wise, she's one of the most powerful characters in the game.
-She stood up to Sephiroth after her father's death (despite almost dying from that event).
-When Cloud is being an asshole, she puts him in his place.
-She knows that she has sexual traits and can manipulate men. However, she doesn't really like it. (A bit like James Bond with women).

Yeah, despite the boobs, Tifa is a good character.

TIL that having breasts above a B cup is sexual exploitation, which is why bras stop at B cup. Oh, wait...

 

[Killertje]

General Beatrix (Final Fantasy 9) Kicks ass and isn't just eye candy. Even has emotions after a while.

 

[Random Argument Man]

Tifa Lockheart, FF7. She easily keeps up with the rest of the gang damage-wise, owns her own bar, is a surrogate mother to a little girl, attractive, yet reasonably proportioned.

Tifa? Reasonably proportioned? You have GOT to be kidding.

Her legs are LITERALLY 2/3 of her height, and that's not even touching her over-sized chest. There's a reason why Cloud can joke about finding an orthopedic bra while searching her house...

While her breasts and tight top might put her in the "oversexualized" category, her character has a lot of traits which would be considered feminine.

Yes, she makes sure that everyone is taken care of.

-During the crisis of sector 7, she asks Aerith to make sure that Marlene is safe while she aids Avalanche.
-When Cloud is in Limbo, she takes command of the group.
-Fight-wise, she's one of the most powerful characters in the game.
-She stood up to Sephiroth after her father's death (despite almost dying from that event).
-When Cloud is being an asshole, she puts him in his place.
-She knows that she has sexual traits and can manipulate men. However, she doesn't really like it. (A bit like James Bond with women).

Yeah, despite the boobs, Tifa is a good character.

TIL that having breasts above a B cup is sexual exploitation, which is why bras stop at B cup. Oh, wait...

First, I said "might". Second, her winning battle pose is she stretch herself to show off a bit. (Not too much).

The sexualisation of Tifa is generaly made by her final fantasy fans or critics. Tifa is one of my favorite FF characters and I find it sad that most people look at her and only critize her as sexual bimbo is a tragedy.

 

[lowhat]

Tifa Lockheart, FF7. She easily keeps up with the rest of the gang damage-wise, owns her own bar, is a surrogate mother to a little girl, attractive, yet reasonably proportioned.

Tifa? Reasonably proportioned? You have GOT to be kidding.

Her legs are LITERALLY 2/3 of her height, and that's not even touching her over-sized chest. There's a reason why Cloud can joke about finding an orthopedic bra while searching her house...

While her breasts and tight top might put her in the "oversexualized" category, her character has a lot of traits which would be considered feminine.

Yes, she makes sure that everyone is taken care of.

-During the crisis of sector 7, she asks Aerith to make sure that Marlene is safe while she aids Avalanche.
-When Cloud is in Limbo, she takes command of the group.
-Fight-wise, she's one of the most powerful characters in the game.
-She stood up to Sephiroth after her father's death (despite almost dying from that event).
-When Cloud is being an asshole, she puts him in his place.
-She knows that she has sexual traits and can manipulate men. However, she doesn't really like it. (A bit like James Bond with women).

Yeah, despite the boobs, Tifa is a good character.

TIL that having breasts above a B cup is sexual exploitation, which is why bras stop at B cup. Oh, wait...

First, I said "might". Second, her winning battle pose is she stretch herself to show off a bit. (Not too much).

The sexualisation of Tifa is generaly made by her final fantasy fans or critics. Tifa is one of my favorite FF characters and I find it sad that most people look at her and only critize her as sexual bimbo is a tragedy.

I actually agree with you, I think you had good points, I was being sarcastic towards the person you quoted. Looking at the artwork for the game, trying to argue that she has overly large breasts is just absurd, and her disproportionate legs make her less sexualized if anything. http://www.giantbomb.com/tifa-lockhart/94-803/

 

[Sindaine]

Would Snow Villiers count for the second one? He is mostly-covered clothing wise, and while he's both insanely tall (6'7) and really strong he's also painfully dumb, impulsive and clumsy. ((Not hyperconfident hypercapable manly-man leaderishness.)) He also at some point does give way to his emotions and shamelessly cry. ((Le gasp! Men aren't supposed to do that!))

 

[Souleks]

Chick can kick a fucking tank.