Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[Torrasque]

Oh hey I didn't see this thread and I feel kind of bad that I am late to the party, I've been following it and getting angrier and angrier at the shit going down, telling friends of mine on twitter (all I can do about it really). Now to read what everyone has said and play catch up.

*cracks knuckles*

Freedom of speech isn't some infallible defence to say what you want. I'm sick of people claiming that it is, and that any action taken against someone because of what they said is impeding their 'rights'.

Really love this line. To me, it sums up this whole shitty mess rather nicely.
Most Americans believe absolutely in freedom of speech but therein lies the problem; they believe absolutely, unflinchingly, in freedom of speech. I keep seeing situations like this pop up (large or small) where an American--I'm sorry to lump those of you that are American, in with these assholes--will say something, someone will take offense to it, and the American will refuse to back down because they think that would be giving up their freedoms. Its not even a matter of what they said or what they intended, they refuse to back down based on fucking principle and will not apologize (or better yet, not say it in the first place).
Ok, we get it. You have freedom of speech, that doesn't mean you abuse it, and it certainly doesn't mean you offend people just because you can.

*keeps reading*

Why should WE be apologizing for this? We didn't do anything. The radicals should apologize to everyone who's life they've fucked up. And the maker of the film should apologize ONLY to the level-headed Muslims for the shit they're gonna get from people who'll blame all muslims for this shit. The radicals shouldn't have the pleasure of seeing people bow down to them and apologize, they don't deserve shit.

Ah, here is another point I would like to adress because it is at the heart of the problem.
Here are all the sides at play (in my opinion):
The level headed Muslims that are being painted as the bad guys by the Extremists that are causing all this trouble
The Extremists that took offense to the video and are riling everyone up and causing all this trouble
The moderate/middle-road person (neither extreme or level headed) and get swept into this mess by the extreme side
The average person that just wants to see this end
The freedom zealot American that would rather die than "give up free speech"
Obama

The level headed Muslims don't like all this violence going on and while they may have been offended by the video, they don't get up in arms about it. Some of them may be middle-road, so they get swept into the mayhem by the Extremists who took extreme offense and are rioting. The level headed ones are similar to the average person (who is not Muslim btw), they just want the mess to end, and are willing to apologize on behalf of the video creator; just like the level headed Muslims likely feel bad that the Extremists caused all this shit. The freedom zealot American refuses to apologize for the video and demands an apology from the Extremists AND the level headed Muslims for the violence. Furthermore, the freedom zealot demands that Obama punish the Extremists for causing all this violence. Obama however has to please both the non-zealots and the zealots (an unfortunate perk that comes with being the president). He cannot say "ok, everything is fine" because everyone will be pissed at him for letting this violence happen without some kind of punishment (people will compare it to getting slapped and just taking it), yet he cannot dish out punishment because who does he punish? The Extremists are hard to pin down because many moderates get caught up into the mess, and the voice of the Extremists drowns out the voice of the level headed Muslims.

So this whole mess juts gets worse and worse with no side willing to back down.
At least that is how I see it.

*finished reading*

Ok wow, I'm glad I am making this post now before this thread gets completely off topic and reaches critical mass.

Here is my take on the situation:
I hate Islam. I hate Islam because I am a rational human being that likes to question anything and everything. Islam is one of those things that you cannot question ever. Why? Because they get mad and threaten you with violence. The people threatening you with violence are not the believers of Islam, the peaceful religion, they are believers in Islam, the religion that says it is alright to kill non-believers. I'm not an expert on Islam, but that is the way they explain it to me and I will take it at face value. It is these extremists that I hate, and these extremists that are causing this huge fucking mess. These people do not deserve an apology, they do not deserve a "hey now, what the hell guys. why did you do all that shit?", they don't deserve any conversation at all because they don't give a shit. The level headed Islamists don't need to be apologized to, they are used to the drill and they feel bad that all this mess is going on. Sure they might be offended when you call Mohammed a piece of shit, but they won't threaten your life. These guys are alright.

This whole mess with either end violently with an armed conflict, or it will fizzle out. By "fizzle out" I mean some more people will probably die and the whole thing will gradually be forgotten somehow.

As for free speech, I've always enjoyed this saying: "Just because you can eat that whole bag of sugar, doesn't mean you should."

Sorry for the TL;DR, I had a lot to say about this clusterfuckery and its been pissing me off all day.

 

[Tay051173096]

stuff

Just restored some of my faith in these forums. Do some people on here actually think that murder is somehow justified if you're offended by something?

Under sharia law you can do all sorts of thing to people if they insult your religon...

From what I can gather the group that killed the americans was 30-50 strong and armed with AKs, RPGs and grenades, this points to a more planned attack (i.e. several days in adavance).

It will be interseting to see how long the go's on for.

 

[kuolonen]

Well, I suppose if U.S. sends the films maker to face the "criticism" of his work, we might as well bundle Ayaan Hirsi Ali in the same package, since Imams have something to say about her works as well. Heck throw in all of the people who have upset Islamic world in the past decade.

I am sure it will turn just fine.

They will have a calm rational deba...PFFTTT HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh man. Could not finish that one with a straight face. Anyway, any moron who has not realized by now that criticizing Islam will lead to death threats and death is too dumb to live.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

 

[the clockmaker]

stuff

Just restored some of my faith in these forums. Do some people on here actually think that murder is somehow justified if you're offended by something?

Only if the killers are looking through their particular political lens

 

[Jegsimmons]

It's disgusting how easily a peaceful religion can get twisted and corrupted like this. Hopefully cooler-heads prevail and they can calm the radicals down.

i dont really buy this religion of peace thing since their prophet ended up waging several conflicts against other people.

It'd be one thing if the korahn actually taught 100% peace like how the new testament does when Jesus came along and completed or made obsolete the old judaic laws.

Now i'll admit im fairly ignorant when it comes to the islamic book, but from what ive been told told, it has shady parts to it. but again, i may be hearing only one biased side to it, like how people take the bible out of context.

But it may be all too much the mindset of a region of people who only lived under facist rule with no concept of free speech or expression. which would explain the hypocrisy in those signs that say "behead those who insult islam" which is a minority in actuality, but id say its probably because the people are not as exposed, educated, ect becaused they live under harsh totalitarian regimes.

but, i refuse to accept we'd have actual wars over a badly edited and acted movie on youtube.
i refuse to believe any person of any culture is this easily manipulated.

 

[Spoonius]

My dad is an Egyptian, and he's afraid of what Egypt is becoming. Having grown up amongst a heavily Islamic population he absolutely detests oppressive religion of any kind.

A lot of people fail to realise that in many middle-eastern societies religion and law are intertwined and often synonymous, and religion is heavily institutionalised. In a western democracy the community may take action against any given religious illegality with the aid of the law, over there your average Joes aren't so lucky.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

What the hell was their budget? A single coat button?

 

[ToastiestZombie]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

What the hell was their budget? A single coat button?

Didn't you see that green screen effect? Avatar, pfft! This is where it's at! /sarcasm.

But yeah, to me this all just seems like a crappy troll film with no real artistic integrity or credit to actually make a good point against Islam. Nobody would have probably known about it outside of a very select few if it weren't for the shit that happened.

 

[JeffBergGold]

Yeah right, because instead of stoning him to death and dragging his carcass around the streets they'll actually listen to what he has to say.

That would be the worst form of betrayal, it sounds almost as if you're justifying religious violence in some way.

Suppose that what he actually said was something 100% truthful and which you personally agreed with, would it still be justified to send him off to the middle east to face his doom because someone took offence?

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Oh we're throwing out quotes eh? For the record I'm not religious at all and I think religion is dangerous for this very reason.

An old adage everyone should live by: "Don't let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash."

Define "hate speech".

Hate speech has no objective measure. What is construed as perfectly civil speech by one person can be branded as hateful by another.

It didn't have to end this way. Sorry but one man's free expression should not be criminalised or blamed for these actions on principle.

Why not? I believe that the creation of the film was irresponsible it's plainly obvious that nothing but negativity could come from its production. With this knowledge he chose to create it anyway.

disproportionate outrage.

Who determines the parameters for outrage?

This is not to say he shouldn't be criticised and held accountable for the contents of the film, but it is not his fault that a bunch of Muslims reacted in such a way.

Who's fault is it? The fact that you use the word "reacted" means that he instigated the action. He is entirely at fault.

People have a right to be angry - they don't have the right to burn down buildings and kill because of it,

That's true, a point we can agree on. However, I have a novel idea that could circumvent the whole anger thing all together. How about never enraging people in the first place? I mean surely if his desire to incite anger or insult a religion weren't so strong this all could have been avoided.

and blaming him is in some way legitimising the reaction of the violent mob.

Not at all it's holding him accountable for his actions.

You can't have it both ways. Either free speech is protected or this sort of religious violence is justified.

Free speech is not freedom from consequences.

The sad thing is: Mubarak probably wouldn't have let this happen.

So true!

 

[Sniper_Zegai]

stuff

Just restored some of my faith in these forums. Do some people on here actually think that murder is somehow justified if you're offended by something?

Only if the killers are looking through their particular political lens

I meant on these forums. Some of the rubbish people have said would be funny if it wasn't for the real events surrounding this mess.

 

[natster43]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

What the shit, really?
This fucking movie is what is causing all this stupid shit to happen?
I am really at a loss of words at how retarded this whole thing is.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

 

[MortisLegio]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

I'm sorry but THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE OFFENDED OVER? THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING KILLED OVER? I...I just...


OT: I have not problem with being upset over a movie (even a shitty one) but having huge protests outside an embassy that 30 or more terrorists can use to hide so they can kill people is just mind boggling. I just don't understand people anymore. Here's my plan:

anyone want to join me?

 

[Padwolf]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

This is what's causing all of this? Jesus fecking christ. This isn't an insult to religion, this is an insult to everyone's intelligence and to the movie industry.

Seriously, this is a really sorry state of affairs and should not have been done in the first place. Yes there is such a thing as free speech but that doesn't make you free from whatever you get for your free speech. I understand why some muslims would be offended, a lot of damage has been done to their reputation and religion already by the media and they wouldn't want more done. But seeing the trailer now, just god fecking damn.

THIS is the film that should be given all the money it deserves

 

[MammothBlade]

Who's fault is it? The fact that you use the word "reacted" means that he instigated the action. He is entirely at fault.

That's all pedantics. The intent of what I am trying to say is that he is not responsible for this violence. Said Muslim extremists are completely responsible for their own actions.

That's true, a point we can agree on. However, I have a novel idea that could circumvent the whole anger thing all together. How about never enraging people in the first place? I mean surely if his desire to incite anger or insult a religion weren't so strong this all could have been avoided.

How about we burn any and all books which cause offence? Anything which was ever controversial or upset someone? Anything which has caused a stir or social unrest.

Society won't get anywhere if controversy and discord are viewed as negatives to be avoided at all costs.

Also, you dodged the question:

Suppose that what he actually said was something 100% truthful and which you personally agreed with, would it still be justified to send him off to the middle east to face his doom because someone took offence?