Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[ToastiestZombie]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

What the hell was their budget? A single coat button?

Didn't you see that green screen effect? Avatar, pfft! This is where it's at! /sarcasm.

But yeah, to me this all just seems like a crappy troll film with no real artistic integrity or credit to actually make a good point against Islam. Nobody would have probably known about it outside of a very select few if it weren't for the shit that happened.

 

[JeffBergGold]

Yeah right, because instead of stoning him to death and dragging his carcass around the streets they'll actually listen to what he has to say.

That would be the worst form of betrayal, it sounds almost as if you're justifying religious violence in some way.

Suppose that what he actually said was something 100% truthful and which you personally agreed with, would it still be justified to send him off to the middle east to face his doom because someone took offence?

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Oh we're throwing out quotes eh? For the record I'm not religious at all and I think religion is dangerous for this very reason.

An old adage everyone should live by: "Don't let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash."

Define "hate speech".

Hate speech has no objective measure. What is construed as perfectly civil speech by one person can be branded as hateful by another.

It didn't have to end this way. Sorry but one man's free expression should not be criminalised or blamed for these actions on principle.

Why not? I believe that the creation of the film was irresponsible it's plainly obvious that nothing but negativity could come from its production. With this knowledge he chose to create it anyway.

disproportionate outrage.

Who determines the parameters for outrage?

This is not to say he shouldn't be criticised and held accountable for the contents of the film, but it is not his fault that a bunch of Muslims reacted in such a way.

Who's fault is it? The fact that you use the word "reacted" means that he instigated the action. He is entirely at fault.

People have a right to be angry - they don't have the right to burn down buildings and kill because of it,

That's true, a point we can agree on. However, I have a novel idea that could circumvent the whole anger thing all together. How about never enraging people in the first place? I mean surely if his desire to incite anger or insult a religion weren't so strong this all could have been avoided.

and blaming him is in some way legitimising the reaction of the violent mob.

Not at all it's holding him accountable for his actions.

You can't have it both ways. Either free speech is protected or this sort of religious violence is justified.

Free speech is not freedom from consequences.

The sad thing is: Mubarak probably wouldn't have let this happen.

So true!

 

[Sniper_Zegai]

stuff

Just restored some of my faith in these forums. Do some people on here actually think that murder is somehow justified if you're offended by something?

Only if the killers are looking through their particular political lens

I meant on these forums. Some of the rubbish people have said would be funny if it wasn't for the real events surrounding this mess.

 

[natster43]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

What the shit, really?
This fucking movie is what is causing all this stupid shit to happen?
I am really at a loss of words at how retarded this whole thing is.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

 

[MortisLegio]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

I'm sorry but THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE OFFENDED OVER? THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING KILLED OVER? I...I just...


OT: I have not problem with being upset over a movie (even a shitty one) but having huge protests outside an embassy that 30 or more terrorists can use to hide so they can kill people is just mind boggling. I just don't understand people anymore. Here's my plan:

anyone want to join me?

 

[Padwolf]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

This is what's causing all of this? Jesus fecking christ. This isn't an insult to religion, this is an insult to everyone's intelligence and to the movie industry.

Seriously, this is a really sorry state of affairs and should not have been done in the first place. Yes there is such a thing as free speech but that doesn't make you free from whatever you get for your free speech. I understand why some muslims would be offended, a lot of damage has been done to their reputation and religion already by the media and they wouldn't want more done. But seeing the trailer now, just god fecking damn.

THIS is the film that should be given all the money it deserves

 

[MammothBlade]

Who's fault is it? The fact that you use the word "reacted" means that he instigated the action. He is entirely at fault.

That's all pedantics. The intent of what I am trying to say is that he is not responsible for this violence. Said Muslim extremists are completely responsible for their own actions.

That's true, a point we can agree on. However, I have a novel idea that could circumvent the whole anger thing all together. How about never enraging people in the first place? I mean surely if his desire to incite anger or insult a religion weren't so strong this all could have been avoided.

How about we burn any and all books which cause offence? Anything which was ever controversial or upset someone? Anything which has caused a stir or social unrest.

Society won't get anywhere if controversy and discord are viewed as negatives to be avoided at all costs.

Also, you dodged the question:

Suppose that what he actually said was something 100% truthful and which you personally agreed with, would it still be justified to send him off to the middle east to face his doom because someone took offence?

 

[Casual Shinji]

I understand why some muslims would be offended, a lot of damage has been done to their reputation and religion already by the media and they wouldn't want more done.

Feeling offended is fine, feeling offended is totally a-okay!

You know what's not fine? Rampaging embassies because you feel offended.

 

[Spygon]

Everybody saw the reaction from the danish cartoons how did you think the middle east would react.To be honest if this is was the other way round i am sure a lot of American full on Christians would start a riot sadly the middle east is abit more radical.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole situation is ridiculous and a huge overreaction.

I'm just not a fan of people stirring up shit for no other reason than offending someone

 

[Lyri]

It didn't have to end this way. Sorry but one man's free expression should not be criminalised or blamed for these actions on principle. There are many ways this could have gone, but because some people are too blind to see beyond their religion they chose to take out their anger on innocent people. There was a similar reaction to the Mohammed cartoons, a violent and disproportionate outrage. This is not to say he shouldn't be criticised and held accountable for the contents of the film, but it is not his fault that a bunch of Muslims reacted in such a way. People have a right to be angry - they don't have the right to burn down buildings and kill because of it, and blaming him is in some way legitimising the reaction of the violent mob.

You can't have it both ways. Either free speech is protected or this sort of religious violence is justified.

You just completely swept over the argument here.

You're only looking at this because of the effect of the cause, you think that the people who rioted are responsible because "they should have known better".
Whilst this is true and they shouldn't just riot and trash things because of video, we also must defer to peoples culture other than our own.

It doesn't matter if the video was anti-islam, anti-christianity or anti-anything else, the video was hate speech and isn't covered by your "exercising freedom of speech" argument.
The reaction to the video doesn't change that.

I'm not advocating any sides behaviour; nobody is right.

 

[Kolby Jack]

The whole situation is pretty fucked up. I am completely outside the realm of understanding anyone in this situation. I'm not sure what the creator figured was going to happen when he released this video. I don't know how the creator can have such a disgusting hatred of a culture, or how he can think provoking that culture would not cause innocent people harm. I can't understand how some random dumb-ass's video on youtube could cause people to get to the point of murder, especially of people who were in no way responsible for the incident. Nothing in this situation makes sense to me, and I'm almost certain I'm not the only one.

 

[JeffBergGold]

Also, you dodged the question:

Suppose that what he actually said was something 100% truthful and which you personally agreed with, would it still be justified to send him off to the middle east to face his doom because someone took offence?

Yep, And I would repeat the old adage to him: Don't let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash." and ship him straight to the German embassy in Sudan. I'd make sure he had a first class flight over there though. Such a man doesn't deserve to fly in coach.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole situation is ridiculous and a huge overreaction.

I'm just not a fan of people stirring up shit for no other reason than offending someone

The problem is that if this mindset of "Uh-oh, better not piss off them Muslims" continues to grow, what's to stop extremists from other religions to start acting the same way? What's to stop the West Baptist Church from suddenly going on a murderous rampage at funerals, because hey, if they feel offended?

This type of radical thinking needs to be challenged and broken down, and that's not going to happen without offending people. Now this particular movie is hardly the quality of The Life of Brian, but even if it was you can bet that it would spark the same violent reaction from these idiot radicals.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole situation is ridiculous and a huge overreaction.

I'm just not a fan of people stirring up shit for no other reason than offending someone

The problem is that if this mindset of "Uh-oh, better not piss off them Muslims" continues to grow, what's to stop extremists from other religions to start acting the same way? What's to stop the West Baptist Church from suddenly going on a murderous rampage at funerals, because hey, if they feel offended?

This type of radical thinking needs to be challenged and broken down, and that's not going to happen without offending people. Now this particular movie is hardly the quality of The Life of Brian, but even if it was you can bet that it would spark the same violent reaction from these idiot radicals.

Well the WBC live in America

Obviously people shouldn't tread lightly around these particular individuals, but they shouldn't give them an excuse to do what they've done.

It's heinous and barbaric, but to some people, there is some justification behind the attacks.


Personally, I think everyone needs to stop taking everything so seriously

 

[MammothBlade]

How about we burn any and all books which cause offence? Anything which was ever controversial or upset someone? Anything which has caused a stir or upset someone.

Just pointing out that going completely out of the context for what he said in an attempt to make his stance look less reasonable than it is scores you no points. It is rather intellectually lazy of you in fact.

To the contrary, whilst the film is bullshit, we can't pick and choose what we want to defend.

Suppose that we were not talking about some silly comedy film but Darwin's Theory of Evolution suddenly being published today. Suppose that it caused similar religious offence. Should it be banned because it's offensive?

You just completely swept over the argument here.

You're only looking at this because of the effect of the cause, you think that the people who rioted are responsible because "they should have known better".
Whilst this is true and they shouldn't just riot and trash things because of video, we also must defer to peoples culture other than our own.

It doesn't matter if the video was anti-islam, anti-christianity or anti-anything else, the video was hate speech and isn't covered by your "exercising freedom of speech" argument.
The reaction to the video doesn't change that.

I'm not advocating any sides behaviour; nobody is right.

Defer to other peoples' culture? In other words, sacrifice "our" deeply held values so other people are not offended. That really won't do, it's a harsh compromise.

You can't have free speech without hate speech. Hate speech is only completely unacceptable when it directly incites violence or persecution against the target of its hatred. I would however support prominent disclaimers and ratings which make it clear that a book or film is considered "hate speech". Bear in mind that large portions of major religious texts could be considered extremely offensive and hateful.

 

[Leadfinger]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

What do you think the US should be doing? I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm genuinely curious.

Pull out embassies. Sever diplomatic ties. Cut off monetary aid. Respond! Do whatever the US gov't normally does in response to terrorist groups killing and capturing US citizens.
Just don't kowtow and apologize and blame the person at whom these violent mobs are angry.

So you think the actions of a few radicals should drive the U.S. out of the region. Isn't that what the radicals want?

 

[PhiMed]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

Free Speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

I have to agree with Daystar on this one, you can feel free to walk into the middle of a gang and start implying that they all sleep with their mothers, and freedom of speech isn't going to protect you there. I just wish the consequences were going to the asshole who made the film, and not random American and German citizens, who might not have even known that it existed.

Agreed.

This particular instance is rather disturbing because others are dying because of the ill-conceived actions of another.

The film is an excuse. This is a coordinated effort. Everyone who believes that the movie (which has been on YouTube since June) was the cause of this violence which started, simultaneously, in several different countries on September 11th has been deceived.

I mean come on. You can't honestly believe this is over a youtube video, can you?

 

[Burst6]

The whole situation is pretty fucked up. I am completely outside the realm of understanding anyone in this situation. I'm not sure what the creator figured was going to happen when he released this video. I don't know how the creator can have such a disgusting hatred of a culture, or how he can think provoking that culture would not cause innocent people harm. I can't understand how some random dumb-ass's video on youtube could cause people to get to the point of murder, especially of people who were in no way responsible for the incident. Nothing in this situation makes sense to me, and I'm almost certain I'm not the only one.

Actually it makes perfect sense.

First, a single extremist makes an inconsequential video because he believes that the middle east is violent and extremist (which it partially is, more than other places anyway).

Then, a lot of horrible extremists, using this as an opportunity to get a rage high and at the same time take down their own religion and culture another notch, start to riot.

I wonder if pointless rage is rewarded with dopamine. If it is it explains this pretty well.


One disturbing thing i'm seeing is that people on this thread say freedom of speech =/= freedom of consequence. Yes, freedom of speech has limits. Running into a crowded station and shouting i have a bomb will get you arrested, but making a stupid video that does nothing illegal should not. Everyone everywhere has freedom of speech. You can say anything you want anywhere you want. That doesn't mean it's good if there are consequences. The freedom of speech we enjoy here means that we can say a lot of things without consequence as long as they aren't obviously hurtful (like said bomb example).

The guy isn't at fault here. Yes he's a bad person, but that doesn't mean this riot was started by him. It was started by the people who used it as an excuse.