Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[Casual Shinji]

I understand why some muslims would be offended, a lot of damage has been done to their reputation and religion already by the media and they wouldn't want more done.

Feeling offended is fine, feeling offended is totally a-okay!

You know what's not fine? Rampaging embassies because you feel offended.

 

[Spygon]

Everybody saw the reaction from the danish cartoons how did you think the middle east would react.To be honest if this is was the other way round i am sure a lot of American full on Christians would start a riot sadly the middle east is abit more radical.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole situation is ridiculous and a huge overreaction.

I'm just not a fan of people stirring up shit for no other reason than offending someone

 

[Lyri]

It didn't have to end this way. Sorry but one man's free expression should not be criminalised or blamed for these actions on principle. There are many ways this could have gone, but because some people are too blind to see beyond their religion they chose to take out their anger on innocent people. There was a similar reaction to the Mohammed cartoons, a violent and disproportionate outrage. This is not to say he shouldn't be criticised and held accountable for the contents of the film, but it is not his fault that a bunch of Muslims reacted in such a way. People have a right to be angry - they don't have the right to burn down buildings and kill because of it, and blaming him is in some way legitimising the reaction of the violent mob.

You can't have it both ways. Either free speech is protected or this sort of religious violence is justified.

You just completely swept over the argument here.

You're only looking at this because of the effect of the cause, you think that the people who rioted are responsible because "they should have known better".
Whilst this is true and they shouldn't just riot and trash things because of video, we also must defer to peoples culture other than our own.

It doesn't matter if the video was anti-islam, anti-christianity or anti-anything else, the video was hate speech and isn't covered by your "exercising freedom of speech" argument.
The reaction to the video doesn't change that.

I'm not advocating any sides behaviour; nobody is right.

 

[Kolby Jack]

The whole situation is pretty fucked up. I am completely outside the realm of understanding anyone in this situation. I'm not sure what the creator figured was going to happen when he released this video. I don't know how the creator can have such a disgusting hatred of a culture, or how he can think provoking that culture would not cause innocent people harm. I can't understand how some random dumb-ass's video on youtube could cause people to get to the point of murder, especially of people who were in no way responsible for the incident. Nothing in this situation makes sense to me, and I'm almost certain I'm not the only one.

 

[JeffBergGold]

Also, you dodged the question:

Suppose that what he actually said was something 100% truthful and which you personally agreed with, would it still be justified to send him off to the middle east to face his doom because someone took offence?

Yep, And I would repeat the old adage to him: Don't let your mouth write checks that your ass can't cash." and ship him straight to the German embassy in Sudan. I'd make sure he had a first class flight over there though. Such a man doesn't deserve to fly in coach.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole situation is ridiculous and a huge overreaction.

I'm just not a fan of people stirring up shit for no other reason than offending someone

The problem is that if this mindset of "Uh-oh, better not piss off them Muslims" continues to grow, what's to stop extremists from other religions to start acting the same way? What's to stop the West Baptist Church from suddenly going on a murderous rampage at funerals, because hey, if they feel offended?

This type of radical thinking needs to be challenged and broken down, and that's not going to happen without offending people. Now this particular movie is hardly the quality of The Life of Brian, but even if it was you can bet that it would spark the same violent reaction from these idiot radicals.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole situation is ridiculous and a huge overreaction.

I'm just not a fan of people stirring up shit for no other reason than offending someone

The problem is that if this mindset of "Uh-oh, better not piss off them Muslims" continues to grow, what's to stop extremists from other religions to start acting the same way? What's to stop the West Baptist Church from suddenly going on a murderous rampage at funerals, because hey, if they feel offended?

This type of radical thinking needs to be challenged and broken down, and that's not going to happen without offending people. Now this particular movie is hardly the quality of The Life of Brian, but even if it was you can bet that it would spark the same violent reaction from these idiot radicals.

Well the WBC live in America

Obviously people shouldn't tread lightly around these particular individuals, but they shouldn't give them an excuse to do what they've done.

It's heinous and barbaric, but to some people, there is some justification behind the attacks.


Personally, I think everyone needs to stop taking everything so seriously

 

[MammothBlade]

How about we burn any and all books which cause offence? Anything which was ever controversial or upset someone? Anything which has caused a stir or upset someone.

Just pointing out that going completely out of the context for what he said in an attempt to make his stance look less reasonable than it is scores you no points. It is rather intellectually lazy of you in fact.

To the contrary, whilst the film is bullshit, we can't pick and choose what we want to defend.

Suppose that we were not talking about some silly comedy film but Darwin's Theory of Evolution suddenly being published today. Suppose that it caused similar religious offence. Should it be banned because it's offensive?

You just completely swept over the argument here.

You're only looking at this because of the effect of the cause, you think that the people who rioted are responsible because "they should have known better".
Whilst this is true and they shouldn't just riot and trash things because of video, we also must defer to peoples culture other than our own.

It doesn't matter if the video was anti-islam, anti-christianity or anti-anything else, the video was hate speech and isn't covered by your "exercising freedom of speech" argument.
The reaction to the video doesn't change that.

I'm not advocating any sides behaviour; nobody is right.

Defer to other peoples' culture? In other words, sacrifice "our" deeply held values so other people are not offended. That really won't do, it's a harsh compromise.

You can't have free speech without hate speech. Hate speech is only completely unacceptable when it directly incites violence or persecution against the target of its hatred. I would however support prominent disclaimers and ratings which make it clear that a book or film is considered "hate speech". Bear in mind that large portions of major religious texts could be considered extremely offensive and hateful.

 

[Leadfinger]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

What do you think the US should be doing? I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm genuinely curious.

Pull out embassies. Sever diplomatic ties. Cut off monetary aid. Respond! Do whatever the US gov't normally does in response to terrorist groups killing and capturing US citizens.
Just don't kowtow and apologize and blame the person at whom these violent mobs are angry.

So you think the actions of a few radicals should drive the U.S. out of the region. Isn't that what the radicals want?

 

[PhiMed]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

Free Speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

I have to agree with Daystar on this one, you can feel free to walk into the middle of a gang and start implying that they all sleep with their mothers, and freedom of speech isn't going to protect you there. I just wish the consequences were going to the asshole who made the film, and not random American and German citizens, who might not have even known that it existed.

Agreed.

This particular instance is rather disturbing because others are dying because of the ill-conceived actions of another.

The film is an excuse. This is a coordinated effort. Everyone who believes that the movie (which has been on YouTube since June) was the cause of this violence which started, simultaneously, in several different countries on September 11th has been deceived.

I mean come on. You can't honestly believe this is over a youtube video, can you?

 

[Burst6]

The whole situation is pretty fucked up. I am completely outside the realm of understanding anyone in this situation. I'm not sure what the creator figured was going to happen when he released this video. I don't know how the creator can have such a disgusting hatred of a culture, or how he can think provoking that culture would not cause innocent people harm. I can't understand how some random dumb-ass's video on youtube could cause people to get to the point of murder, especially of people who were in no way responsible for the incident. Nothing in this situation makes sense to me, and I'm almost certain I'm not the only one.

Actually it makes perfect sense.

First, a single extremist makes an inconsequential video because he believes that the middle east is violent and extremist (which it partially is, more than other places anyway).

Then, a lot of horrible extremists, using this as an opportunity to get a rage high and at the same time take down their own religion and culture another notch, start to riot.

I wonder if pointless rage is rewarded with dopamine. If it is it explains this pretty well.


One disturbing thing i'm seeing is that people on this thread say freedom of speech =/= freedom of consequence. Yes, freedom of speech has limits. Running into a crowded station and shouting i have a bomb will get you arrested, but making a stupid video that does nothing illegal should not. Everyone everywhere has freedom of speech. You can say anything you want anywhere you want. That doesn't mean it's good if there are consequences. The freedom of speech we enjoy here means that we can say a lot of things without consequence as long as they aren't obviously hurtful (like said bomb example).

The guy isn't at fault here. Yes he's a bad person, but that doesn't mean this riot was started by him. It was started by the people who used it as an excuse.

 

[already in use]

I doubt the video is the ``real´´ reason for the riots,
stuff like this comes up every few days and gets extremely
popular every few months (books, carricatures, blogs... you call it).

The regular muslim doesnt go burning houses and killing people for
menial crap like that.
Radicals use stuff like this as an excuse to start unrest, strenghten
their political position, winning over followers and shutting up
liberal voices.

Its weird how the media always seems to make these things more about the USA
than the middle east and what is really going on there...

Well, I will just sit back and wait until a US president sends some more people
somewhere over there in the desert again. The conspiracy theories will certainly be fun.
If it happens soon the video will have been secretly produced be the CIA. This is where
your taxes go folks .

 

[Daystar Clarion]

I mean come on. You can't honestly believe this is over a youtube video, can you?

These are people we're talking about.

I think you underestimate just how worked up people can get over a crappy video

 

[RoonMian]

I don't know if this has been said already but I've seen the question crop up why the German embassy in the Sudan was attacked when the movie was made by an American.

That is because a few weeks ago a pretty high ranking German court declared that people are allowed to protest in front of mosques with carricatures of Mohammed. That was highly controversial here in Germany but suprisignly didn't get that much of media coverage so it took a few weeks until that actually reached the islamic world. Adding to that that awful, stupid, hateful movie and you got yourself a powder keg that exploded today.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Freedom of speech lets you say what you want. The government won't interfere.

Won't stop you from getting your arsed kicked if you walk into a neighbourhood populated by black people and start talking about how much you 'hate niggers.'

Like I said, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.

Except that he made this movie in America, not in the Middle East. If you go to a country with backwards laws and mindsets and start intentionally breaking/insulting them then you're stupid. But that has no relevance in a country where you're allowed to criticize religion - Every religion, not "all religions except Islam", which is how it seems to be in the world today.

"Christians are being insulted... So what."
"Jews are being insulted... Meh."
"Muslims are being insulted... DUCK 'N COVER!!!"

Remember how recently a girl in, I think Pakistan, was arrested for allegedly tearing pages from the Quran, but it turned out it was an Imam that did it, who then framed the girl? How come there was no outrage from the Muslim community over that incident? One of their own holy men desecrated their most sacred of books and then framed a child with a mental disabilty, yet no radical says a peep. Yet one crappy movie comes along from the evil West, which not a fucking soul had even heard about untill now, and they start spitting blood.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole situation is ridiculous and a huge overreaction.

I'm just not a fan of people stirring up shit for no other reason than offending someone

The problem is that if this mindset of "Uh-oh, better not piss off them Muslims" continues to grow, what's to stop extremists from other religions to start acting the same way? What's to stop the West Baptist Church from suddenly going on a murderous rampage at funerals, because hey, if they feel offended?

This type of radical thinking needs to be challenged and broken down, and that's not going to happen without offending people. Now this particular movie is hardly the quality of The Life of Brian, but even if it was you can bet that it would spark the same violent reaction from these idiot radicals.

Well the WBC live in America

Obviously people shouldn't tread lightly around these particular individuals, but they shouldn't give them an excuse to do what they've done.

It's heinous and barbaric, but to some people, there is some justification behind the attacks.


Personally, I think everyone needs to stop taking everything so seriously

But that's the whole conundrum; Do we speak our minds under the risk of certain idiots threatening with and commiting murder, or do we keep quite, eventhough we might want to say something, so it won't full their rage?

And nothing anybody says is ever a justification for these types of acts. The act itself completely forfeits any justification the people in question might've had.