Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[MammothBlade]

Part of "freedom of speech" also guarantees that no physical harm will come to the speaker.

Since when? This is news to me. I'd really like you to site a reputable source for this one because I'm genuinely curious as to where this is stated in the amendment.

Even if it did it still falls under the offense principle which removes any social protections that his free speech rights granted.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/#MilHarPriHatSpe

I find your opinions extremely offensive, therefore you must be punished under the offence principle.

 

[zehydra]

Part of "freedom of speech" also guarantees that no physical harm will come to the speaker.

Since when? This is news to me. I'd really like you to site a reputable source for this one because I'm genuinely curious as to where this is stated in the amendment.

Even if it did it still falls under the offense principle which removes any social protections that his free speech rights granted.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/#MilHarPriHatSpe

Of course it's not mentioned in the amendment. I'm not talking about freedom of speech as it applies to the US constitution, because that is a non-issue here anyway; we are dealing with a problem involving non-US citizens.

I'm talking about freedom of speech in general. No speech can be considered free if the threat of violence and violence itself are permissible reactions to said speech.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

In the UK there was a serious documentary on Islam, that has gained death threats and had to cancel its broadcast. Its retarded to be honest, all other religions are open to documentaries, ridicule or whatever. Not Islam, who when anyone writes or says anything they don't like they throw there toys out the pram and end up with innocent people dying. For a religions that's meant to be peaceful, its amazing how violent they are and how non of the moderate Muslims say a word against it.

Granted they may not like the movie, an its there right to protest it peacefully. But death threats and bombs? Really? They give there religion a bad name in the eyes of the world.

 

[Rainforce]

I never said the response would be justified

Just that's not an infallible defence to say what you want, when you want.

as much as I agree, leave it for now, Daystar.
We cannot kill the Dream D:

OT: this is getting pretty serious... hope the guy responsible will pay for it somewhen : D
(and seriously? burning holy scriptures? I might not believe in any god, and while I oppose quite some religious thoughts, that doesn't mean I won't pay any respect at all to religions. You simply do not trample on graves.
Fuck the "free speech" problem, this guy has no honor.)

 

[waj9876]

Jesus fucking Christ, there are people actually DEFENDING the radical's bloodthirsty rampage here?

Actually, you know what? Yes, let's turn this guy in. This way, we have an excuse to do the same thing to the ones in the United States spreading hate speech, just like this guy did, right? Right? Oh, I'm sorry, obviously because of RELIGION, we can't do anything. My mistake.

I'd probably become an atheist if I didn't actually believe in Christianity, because of shit like this.

 

[Sniper_Zegai]

I haven't commented on here for a long, long time but I had to for this thread because after reading over a couple of pages I just felt depressed by the amount of people who are perfectly happy to sit back and watch people get killed by vicious mobs of lunatics over an incredibly poor film and happily lay blame on the film-maker instead of the people carrying out the murders.

How many people do Muslim fanatics have to kill or rights do they get to trample on before we call them on their own BS? Did they kill enough people after the Danish cartoons? Did they silence enough people going after Salman Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Have they burnt enough embassies and brutally murdered enough innocents who have no connection to the original offence?

Yet people line up to back up murderers? Say what you want about the teachings of Islam and the whole "religion of peace" line because it is getting tired and I worry for this world when people can't just be honest with the facts that having your religion criticized or a spiritual leader joked about does not give you license to run riot and kill people in the way they are killing people over this tripe. The Onion posted an images with Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Ganesha having sex with each other and the title of the picture is "Nobody was killed over this image" . . . . wake up!

As for the whole free speech argument I will leave you with this quote. "Freedom of speech means nothing if it does not mean the freedom of those who think differently"

 

[Charli]

It's disgusting how easily a peaceful religion can get twisted and corrupted like this. Hopefully cooler-heads prevail and they can calm the radicals down.

Personally I'm not so sure it's a peaceful religion.


The name of this video might seem hateful on islam, but it's a very reasonable presentation.

Seen this before and I can't argue against it. I've lived among Islamic culture and it was...

Unnerving.

 

[cerebus23]

One thing i would like to point out since when do we all have to follow a religion we do not believe?

Why should we cower in fear over some people that want to force their ideas onto everyone weither we believe them or not.

Is not the catholics saying our god is the real god and all you non believers can just shove off the reason the crusades got rolling?

I am sick of being pc because some lunatics threaten to kill and murder in the name of their prophet, because you might say he sucks or is about just as full of crap as every other religious figure that was shaped by men.

Grats to modern islam managing to drag itself into the ooze pit of history and show they are as petty and hateful as every other religion out there has ever been. Destroying ancient buddaist temples, killing innocent people in the name of religion, raping and murdering women and children, and condemning the whole of the western world for the bs of one person that noone ever heard about or gave two spits about until we all got blamed for it.

Grow up middle east, it is about time you wake up and realize your leaders keep you bound in hate so you do not sit around thinking about how grossly inept and corrupt your own leaders are in most cases. How they do tons to set these seeds of hate and feign ignorance when these things blow up.

And to you moderates out there, speak the hell up, spend as much time telling these murders and thugs that give your religion a black eye, and use your god as an excuse to murder pure and simple, that they are wrong more wrong that some ignorant punk that says something stupid, and sure as hell tell them that noone outside islam in any way shape or form is bound to your beliefs.

 

[the clockmaker]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

Free Speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

This is not a consequence. This is a violent mob response to an "offensive" video (from a group who get murderous if you even DRAW He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Insulted). This is an American making a (poorly-produced) protected statement, and being thrown to the wolves in order to appease those same wolves.
In essence, the US is saying "These people's request that you not insult Islam matters more to us than your freedom of speech or expression."

Put it this way.

I child is poking a sleeping bear with a stick.

Now that child has all the right in the world to poke that bear with said stick.

Just don't be surprised when the bear wakes up and mauls him.

Freedom of speech isn't some infallible defence to say what you want. I'm sick of people claiming that it is, and that any action taken against someone because of what they said is impeding their 'rights'.

Okay, lots of problems here. and I stress that all referances to the perpetrators are aimed at the perpetrators only.

First, much as, apparently, people of both sides like to deny it, Muslims are people, not animals. This may sound like I'm teaching you to suck eggs, but these rioters, they chose to do this, they are human beings and they chose to attack an embasy and kill. They are not a force of nature, they are not a nessecary equal reaction, they are responsible for their actions. This means that if they respond negatively to someone exercising their rights across the globe, that is not a consequence, that is a fucking atrocity. The fact that you seem to think that muslims are just stimulus-reaction without any thought in the matter reeks of 'oh they're just muslims, they don't know any better'

Second, I was not aware that the filmaker was in any of these embassies, I mean, Personally, if I was going to play it off as the consequences of free speech, I would ensure that the person who actually had the audacity to say something someone else didn't like was the one who was 'punished' for his 'crime' and not some innocent people just doing their job.

Third, Freedom of speech, you claim that it isn't some infallible defence to say what you want, well, under certain circumstances, it isn't. It isn't a defence to be corrected, or a defence against being called a fuckwit, or peacefully protested against. It is however, a defence against harm. If you are harming, or threatening to harm someone for saying something that you dissaprove of, then you are definately breaching their human rights. That is the cearest redline imaginable, you cannot kill someone for saying something you dissaprove of. Think of it this way, if the government went in and started firing rockets at occupy wall street and attempting to gun down the protesters, and then tried to claim that, 'while they had freedom of speech, they were not protected from the consequences' would you be ok with that. Of course even then the it would be 'punishing' the occupy protesters for something they actually did, unlike the embasy staff.

Fourth, for something to be a provocation, it has to be something that a reasonable person would respond negatively to, and the degree of provocation also has to stand up to that metric. For example, I don't like being poked with sticks, you don't like being poked with sticks, it is a reasonable reaction to have, moving down, I don't like it when someone takes my parking spot, that is reasonable, but then it would not be reasonable to let the red mist descend and fire rockets into a crowd of innocent people. This film would be a reasonable provocation for a peaceful protest and a boycott of cinemas that showed it, but, and I can't stress this enough, not enough to attempt to use force of arms to silence people who made a shitty movie that you don't like.

 

[Duskwaith]

This proves that members of the Escapist don't know politics.

Amen.

Freedom of speech is not always free, since in the UK we have a Negative free spUIP bill meaning you cant run around and say death to all muslims/infidels etc. and say you cant do shit because its freedom of speech.

Also alot of this threads has people saying "well in America freedom of speech etc." which to me smacks of arrogance as in you cannot get bitchy when someone else doesnt live in the same culture as you and lives under different laws with different views and attitudes.

People claim to have read the Qu'ran, yet to read a book and to understand a book are two totally different things.

The violence is totally abhorrent and cannot be supported in anyway, but if your going to offend people on a topic as sensitive as religion in an area that has suffered quite alot of hardship in the last few decades at the hands of certain superpowers.

Lets hope regardless that the violence subsides before anymore death is dealt. Muslim,American or otherwise

 

[OldNewNewOld]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

Free Speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

This is not a consequence. This is a violent mob response to an "offensive" video (from a group who get murderous if you even DRAW He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Insulted). This is an American making a (poorly-produced) protected statement, and being thrown to the wolves in order to appease those same wolves.
In essence, the US is saying "These people's request that you not insult Islam matters more to us than your freedom of speech or expression."

Put it this way.

I child is poking a sleeping bear with a stick.

Now that child has all the right in the world to poke that bear with said stick.

Just don't be surprised when the bear wakes up and mauls him.

Freedom of speech isn't some infallible defence to say what you want. I'm sick of people claiming that it is, and that any action taken against someone because of what they said is impeding their 'rights'.

So what you're saying is that these people performing these actions on behalf of their particular fairy tale character are comparible to undomesticated animals who attack what they don't understand? On this, we agree.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth though.

I apologize for attempting to put words in your mouth, as true as they are. These people are acting like undomesticated animals. Show me another culture in the modern world that reacts this violently to someone saying something on the other side of the world that hurts their feelings. Show me another religion that, at this time in history, flips shit and thinks murder, pain, and destruction is a valid response to someone SAYING something with which they don't agree.

All they're doing is proving that there's no place in the international community for a culture who haven't yet discovered that words aren't worth taking life over. The only correct reponse here is to cut off all ties, get our people out of the region, get our money out of the region, and let them live in their dirt to kill each other once they don't have us as an outlet for their aggression.

Not religion, but you should find the similarities.

 

[Sniper_Zegai]

stuff

Just restored some of my faith in these forums. Do some people on here actually think that murder is somehow justified if you're offended by something?

 

[Torrasque]

Oh hey I didn't see this thread and I feel kind of bad that I am late to the party, I've been following it and getting angrier and angrier at the shit going down, telling friends of mine on twitter (all I can do about it really). Now to read what everyone has said and play catch up.

*cracks knuckles*

Freedom of speech isn't some infallible defence to say what you want. I'm sick of people claiming that it is, and that any action taken against someone because of what they said is impeding their 'rights'.

Really love this line. To me, it sums up this whole shitty mess rather nicely.
Most Americans believe absolutely in freedom of speech but therein lies the problem; they believe absolutely, unflinchingly, in freedom of speech. I keep seeing situations like this pop up (large or small) where an American--I'm sorry to lump those of you that are American, in with these assholes--will say something, someone will take offense to it, and the American will refuse to back down because they think that would be giving up their freedoms. Its not even a matter of what they said or what they intended, they refuse to back down based on fucking principle and will not apologize (or better yet, not say it in the first place).
Ok, we get it. You have freedom of speech, that doesn't mean you abuse it, and it certainly doesn't mean you offend people just because you can.

*keeps reading*

Why should WE be apologizing for this? We didn't do anything. The radicals should apologize to everyone who's life they've fucked up. And the maker of the film should apologize ONLY to the level-headed Muslims for the shit they're gonna get from people who'll blame all muslims for this shit. The radicals shouldn't have the pleasure of seeing people bow down to them and apologize, they don't deserve shit.

Ah, here is another point I would like to adress because it is at the heart of the problem.
Here are all the sides at play (in my opinion):
The level headed Muslims that are being painted as the bad guys by the Extremists that are causing all this trouble
The Extremists that took offense to the video and are riling everyone up and causing all this trouble
The moderate/middle-road person (neither extreme or level headed) and get swept into this mess by the extreme side
The average person that just wants to see this end
The freedom zealot American that would rather die than "give up free speech"
Obama

The level headed Muslims don't like all this violence going on and while they may have been offended by the video, they don't get up in arms about it. Some of them may be middle-road, so they get swept into the mayhem by the Extremists who took extreme offense and are rioting. The level headed ones are similar to the average person (who is not Muslim btw), they just want the mess to end, and are willing to apologize on behalf of the video creator; just like the level headed Muslims likely feel bad that the Extremists caused all this shit. The freedom zealot American refuses to apologize for the video and demands an apology from the Extremists AND the level headed Muslims for the violence. Furthermore, the freedom zealot demands that Obama punish the Extremists for causing all this violence. Obama however has to please both the non-zealots and the zealots (an unfortunate perk that comes with being the president). He cannot say "ok, everything is fine" because everyone will be pissed at him for letting this violence happen without some kind of punishment (people will compare it to getting slapped and just taking it), yet he cannot dish out punishment because who does he punish? The Extremists are hard to pin down because many moderates get caught up into the mess, and the voice of the Extremists drowns out the voice of the level headed Muslims.

So this whole mess juts gets worse and worse with no side willing to back down.
At least that is how I see it.

*finished reading*

Ok wow, I'm glad I am making this post now before this thread gets completely off topic and reaches critical mass.

Here is my take on the situation:
I hate Islam. I hate Islam because I am a rational human being that likes to question anything and everything. Islam is one of those things that you cannot question ever. Why? Because they get mad and threaten you with violence. The people threatening you with violence are not the believers of Islam, the peaceful religion, they are believers in Islam, the religion that says it is alright to kill non-believers. I'm not an expert on Islam, but that is the way they explain it to me and I will take it at face value. It is these extremists that I hate, and these extremists that are causing this huge fucking mess. These people do not deserve an apology, they do not deserve a "hey now, what the hell guys. why did you do all that shit?", they don't deserve any conversation at all because they don't give a shit. The level headed Islamists don't need to be apologized to, they are used to the drill and they feel bad that all this mess is going on. Sure they might be offended when you call Mohammed a piece of shit, but they won't threaten your life. These guys are alright.

This whole mess with either end violently with an armed conflict, or it will fizzle out. By "fizzle out" I mean some more people will probably die and the whole thing will gradually be forgotten somehow.

As for free speech, I've always enjoyed this saying: "Just because you can eat that whole bag of sugar, doesn't mean you should."

Sorry for the TL;DR, I had a lot to say about this clusterfuckery and its been pissing me off all day.

 

[Tay051173096]

stuff

Just restored some of my faith in these forums. Do some people on here actually think that murder is somehow justified if you're offended by something?

Under sharia law you can do all sorts of thing to people if they insult your religon...

From what I can gather the group that killed the americans was 30-50 strong and armed with AKs, RPGs and grenades, this points to a more planned attack (i.e. several days in adavance).

It will be interseting to see how long the go's on for.

 

[kuolonen]

Well, I suppose if U.S. sends the films maker to face the "criticism" of his work, we might as well bundle Ayaan Hirsi Ali in the same package, since Imams have something to say about her works as well. Heck throw in all of the people who have upset Islamic world in the past decade.

I am sure it will turn just fine.

They will have a calm rational deba...PFFTTT HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh man. Could not finish that one with a straight face. Anyway, any moron who has not realized by now that criticizing Islam will lead to death threats and death is too dumb to live.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

 

[the clockmaker]

stuff

Just restored some of my faith in these forums. Do some people on here actually think that murder is somehow justified if you're offended by something?

Only if the killers are looking through their particular political lens

 

[Jegsimmons]

It's disgusting how easily a peaceful religion can get twisted and corrupted like this. Hopefully cooler-heads prevail and they can calm the radicals down.

i dont really buy this religion of peace thing since their prophet ended up waging several conflicts against other people.

It'd be one thing if the korahn actually taught 100% peace like how the new testament does when Jesus came along and completed or made obsolete the old judaic laws.

Now i'll admit im fairly ignorant when it comes to the islamic book, but from what ive been told told, it has shady parts to it. but again, i may be hearing only one biased side to it, like how people take the bible out of context.

But it may be all too much the mindset of a region of people who only lived under facist rule with no concept of free speech or expression. which would explain the hypocrisy in those signs that say "behead those who insult islam" which is a minority in actuality, but id say its probably because the people are not as exposed, educated, ect becaused they live under harsh totalitarian regimes.

but, i refuse to accept we'd have actual wars over a badly edited and acted movie on youtube.
i refuse to believe any person of any culture is this easily manipulated.

 

[Spoonius]

My dad is an Egyptian, and he's afraid of what Egypt is becoming. Having grown up amongst a heavily Islamic population he absolutely detests oppressive religion of any kind.

A lot of people fail to realise that in many middle-eastern societies religion and law are intertwined and often synonymous, and religion is heavily institutionalised. In a western democracy the community may take action against any given religious illegality with the aid of the law, over there your average Joes aren't so lucky.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

If anyone wants to know what all this shit is about, here's the trailer for the film. All I can say is... holy crap that film looks terrible. Holy shit... murder and international chaos from THIS! THIS! Damn...

This is all just a sorry state of affairs.

What the hell was their budget? A single coat button?