GOG Says DRM Drives Gamers to Piracy

Direwolf750

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I know that I haven't bought some games because of the DRM on them. I know that a lot of people I know have pirated games rather than deal with the shit that comes with them. I know that I probably would hate certain companies a lot less if they used non-obnoxious DRM. The Industry is doing it wrong, the DRM inconveniences the people who actually buy the game, and no form of DRM is hack-proof. This drives up the price of the game and punishes legitimate users.
 

Zefar

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TestECull said:
DRM does drive quite a few people to it, sure.
Zefar said:
So the whole "Treating us like criminals" is a tad bit overreacting imo.
It's still dead accurate if you think about it. The actual criminals get away with a game that works, one that doesn't make them jump through hoops, and one that is free. Meanwhile, those of us who buy our games have to sacrifice a goat to the developer every time we want to play. We have to prove we're not criminals in order to play, AND WE PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE!
For the great majority of the people, DRM will be of no issue for them. Every game with a DRM on it and even install limits have never bothered me with anything.

I run the EXE and it's fine. I uninstall it later if I'm not gonna play it again and I'll regain my activation limits. When I want to install it again I just install it and then launch it.

Piracy really have no extra great feature that we don't have. Oh and there have been games that messes up the pirate version when they're playing where as we normal customers don't get those things.

I still find Assassin Creed 2 DRM to be one of the most effective. It stopped pirates for like 3 months or so.
 

googleback

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I completely COMPLETELY agree. Buy your game and don't be a dick but don't be an even bigger dick and punish the consumer. fuck both parties. I am behind gog.com and what it stand for 100%
 

SinisterGehe

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Ill buy this game, just to support the cause.
And I agree with the guy here. DRMs that shutdown half od our system and con not be removed... Comon... I want play a game not to turn it in to a brick...
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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Okay, stop right there. This was making some beautiful points, I agree with piracy being wrong, but we really need to stop all this "stealing from the creator" BS. That's great propaganda, but a total load of bunk in most cases.

In reality what happens is that a producer pays a developer to make a game. The producer is the one with the financial stake in the game. By the time it actually comes out, the actual creator has already gotten paid everything he'sgoing to get out of it. That "50 million dollar development budget" or whatever was the money the developers got to pay themselves for their skills. Any damage done to developers through piracy is simply if producers stop making money and wanting to invest in gaming as a way of increasing their fortunes. That's still a BAD thing, but let's at least get the victims right. This kind of propaganda exists because it's easier to garner sympathy for the game developers, than it is for the multi-billionaires who are the ones losing out.


Now it *IS* true that the developers might be hurt directly if they have taken out a loan, and are basically self-producing. In such cases these guys have also already been paid (the loan is to pay themselves while they develop the game). They do however have profits that can be made if they manage to make enough to pay back their loan with interest, anything beyond that point goes into the developer's coffers.


There are rare exceptions, but I don't think CD Projeckt is wealthy enough to be entirely self financing even with GoG. Even if they are, they are addressing the issue in a very general way, since the devs rarely have any direct stake in the success of games.


I agree that piracy is wrong, and I agree DRM is not a practical way of dealing with it. I however think that issues like this, need to be dealt with rationally, and without trying to sensationalize them or confuse the actual issues with propaganda.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people in the industry have been convinced by bean counters that a lot of those people who pirate games, would be paying top dollar for them if they couldn't pirate. That is faulty logic, there is no lower price than free, but not having something availible for free does not put hundreds of dollars to spend on games into someone's pocket by magic, nor does it mean that something someone is tempted to try for free is something they will be tempted to try for a substantial outlay of money.

Right now, while piracy is wrong, it's been part of the industry for a very long time. Despite it's pescence the industry has turned into a multi-billion dollar juggernaut. Overall going after pirates amounts to penny pinching, and probably does a lot of damage due to the costumers who DO pay who are turned off by DRM and malware, and people insisting they don't own what they paid for. I think the damage to legitimate customers substantially outweighs any benefits gained from fighting pirates.

On a lot of levels I'm argueing that pirates should be given a relatively free pass for the moment, as feel that is the lesser of evils. Right now two wrongs do not make a right, and DRM is definatly a wrong. The industry should continue to work on ways to protect it's property and ultimatly strive to find some way of doing it that won't impact legitimate customers or affect their abillity to use the products they pay for. Until they get to that point (which will happen eventually) I think copy protection and DRM should be done away with entirely. I actually think it's unfair enough to legitimate customers that it should be banned entirely.
 

Littaly

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I'm not entirely sure removing DRM is going to decrease piracy all that much, but it's certainly not going to increase it. What it is going to increase however is consumer satisfaction rate, and not by a small amount either.
 

SinisterGehe

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TestECull said:
DRM does drive quite a few people to it, sure.
Zefar said:
So the whole "Treating us like criminals" is a tad bit overreacting imo.
It's still dead accurate if you think about it. The actual criminals get away with a game that works, one that doesn't make them jump through hoops, and one that is free. Meanwhile, those of us who buy our games have to sacrifice a goat to the developer every time we want to play. We have to prove we're not criminals in order to play, AND WE PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE!
It is rather odd to which extend people are willing to go to waste time. And to which extends companies are willing to go to irritate their customers... - Ah no wait; To protect their product and their rights. But how about my rights? I'd like to buy a game and have a some kind of privacy same time.
 

RanD00M

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Art Axiv said:
RanD00M said:
CD Projekt Red say the same thing and they're keeping The Witcher 2 DRM free because of it. And because it shows that they love the industry they are in I'm going to pre-order TW2 because of it.
You probably know that, but GOG and CD Projekt Red are the same company. Just heads up.
Duuuuude, what? I did not know that.
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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Ever since I became aware of them via The Witcher, I've had a very high opinion of CD Projekt - for starters, they made a kickass RPG that had me sleep-deprived for quite a while thanks to the frequent "I'll stop playing and go to bed any minute now oh crap it's 5AM HOW DID THAT HAPPEN!?" moments it inspired. Most developers would probably have stopped there, or perhaps just have patched out the more egregious bugs before shifting their focus onto milking more money out of the fanbase via DLC (not that I necessarily complain about that in every circumstance, depends on the content really), but with the Expanded Edition of the game, they released what was essentially a "remastered" edition of The Witcher, and they gave it away for free - that was truly rare.

Opening up Good Old Games pretty much cemented them as my favorite game company ever, and these thoughts on the detrimental nature of DRM could have been plucked directly from my brain, because that's exactly what I always argue - if anything, DRM drives sales down, not up. Making your products worse in a futile attempt to convert non-customers into paying customers only drives off the customers you already have - "pirates gonna pirate", that's just a given.

I don't condone piracy in any way mind you, but I do understand that from a balance sheet perspective, there is no difference between Person A purchasing a copy of your game and then letting Person B play it whenever they're at Person A's house, and the same situation only this time Person B doesn't know Person A and has instead just downloaded themselves a bootleg copy; either way you've sold the same number of units and made the same amount of money. When someone 'stealing' a product is indistinguishable, from a purely fiscal standpoint mind you, from someone simply not buying it, that says to me that maybe you should worry more about developing a better product or doing a better job marketing it to people than you should about "stopping" copyright infringement.

DRM, as it exists now, is pure negative reinforcement - it's an attempt to turn the legion of scallywags that nab bootleg copies of your merchandise now into paying customers by making it impossible for them to obtain those bootleg copies. That has simply never worked, and even when studios like Ubisoft devise ridiculously draconian systems (with ultra-obvious points of vulnerability that literally the entire internet pointed out would be attacked only to be proven so very right as soon as it went into production) that take a good chunk of time to foil, look at what they had to "pay" for their accomplishment: In the minds of a significant chunk of their audience on the PC platform, Ubisoft's name is mud - they were dragged through the coals, their executives burnt in effigy, mass calls for boycotts, the works. Even if most of the more vocal element were all talk and no action, the entire fiasco itself was a PR nightmare.

So with DRM we have an approach that's all stick, and the worst aspect is it's a stick that only impacts paying customers - pirates don't have to worry about annoying online activation codes and running out of "installs", losing their CD Keys, damage to the game disc rendering the game unplayable thanks to a disc check (the only thing discs are typically used for after the initial install these days), etc, because when they get their hands on a copy of a game all that shit has been stripped out.

Spending money to make your products worse for the only people you should be rewarding because "Hey, those folks are the ones giving you money" sounds incredibly stupid, doesn't it? Kukawski is an executive with his head on straight - punishing your customers is the opposite of good business sense (unless you are a dominatrix, in which case it is your core competency) - at best they just won't notice or care enough to stop purchasing games from you, but adding on unnecessary (read: any) DRM to your products can only ever lower public perception and reduce any feelings of goodwill you may have generated through past actions; only crazy people would perceive adding DRM to a game they want as something to be happy about[footnote]If you think that was in any way hyperbole on my part and not cold hard fact, think about it this way: Imagine there is an airport with an exhaustive and annoying screening system in place that everyone has to pass through to get on their flights. Now imagine you could pay a premium to skip all the bullshit and have a greatly simplified check-in. Got that image in your mind? Good - now reverse it, so that the people forking over money are in fact the only ones now subjected to the inconvenience, and everyone else who pays nothing simply get waved on through with no hassle. Kind of hard to imagine anyone who would be willing to pay to make the check-in process longer and more annoying, isn't it? DRM does exactly that now though you say? Imagine that![/footnote].


Me, I never pirate games no matter how stupid the DRM is that publishers attach to them, though depending on the relative awfulocity I may simply elect to boycott anything that publisher produces from now until the heat death of the universe (*cough*Ubisoft*cough*), but I absolutely turn to the work of pirates on a regular basis to remove CD-checks and other forms of copy protection from games I've already purchased legitimately; it's generally the only away around a pointless (and frankly insulting) hurdle I'd otherwise have to jump through. That a legitimate paying customer like myself has come to rely on pirates for anything is the clearest indictment there can be for the industry status quo - DRM is asinine, just bloody get rid of it and put all that wasted money to better work selling more games.

[HEADING=3]There are people out there who want to pay for stuff - the last thing you should ever do is make not paying look more attractive than it already does.[/HEADING]​
 

godofallu

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I would pre order the Witcher 2 from them right now if my PC could run it on high, but it can't.

I hate DRM, it's just stupid.
 

Art Axiv

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RanD00M said:
Art Axiv said:
RanD00M said:
CD Projekt Red say the same thing and they're keeping The Witcher 2 DRM free because of it. And because it shows that they love the industry they are in I'm going to pre-order TW2 because of it.
You probably know that, but GOG and CD Projekt Red are the same company. Just heads up.
Duuuuude, what? I did not know that.
Glad to help out then! :)
 

Gigano

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Oct 15, 2009
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Well, DRM seem to have always failed utterly at what it's supposed to do, since it's apparently consistently cracked. And now it have become so extensive and intrusive that most consumers have begun to really notice it and weight it against the product (without becoming any more efficient against illegal cracking, it seems).

I'm convinced GOG is on the right track here in terms of market strategy, by offering up a product that's unobstructed by needless burdens, and easily available through digital distribution. A large group of people will probably prefer to stay on the right side of the law - even at a price - as long as the game doesn't become a poorer experience and less usable product for doing so.
 

Megacherv

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WaaghPowa said:
DRM isn't necessarily the issue, since Steam is one big DRM. Outrageous game prices, bad ports, and bad support is what drives people to piracy. Who's going to pay for a buggy overpriced game with no support?
I think we can stop classing Steam as DRM and more as a wonderful gift from the fairest of angels...

...okay, well maybe that's too much. As Shamus Young said, DRM isn't always a bad thing, and is very good if it's done well. 2 of his examples were Steam and Batman: Arkham Asylum. Steam offers incentives such as free updates, Steam Cloud, access from multiple computers, games are all stored and managed in one software suite, Steam Community, so much other stuff that it's untrue. I wouldn't say that Steam having a monopoly over the Digital Distribution Market (for me, by the way) would be a bad thing, since it's such a fantastic service that you can't complain.

Arkham Asylum on the other hand was such an ingenious example of DRM, by simply disabling the glide function. Can't possibly comment further
 

barbzilla

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Dec 6, 2010
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Zefar said:
I just see those Activation limits as a car key or household key. As long as you keep it you'll be fine.

My PC really haven't crashed lately and modern PCs are quite stable as well.

So the whole "Treating us like criminals" is a tad bit overreacting imo. Personally I find the CD/DVD need to be the more annoying type of DRM.

But people pirate because.

1: It's free.
2: They don't have any money.
3: Hate the DRM so much and try to make a point by pirating it.

It's the "FREE" part that lures the most people.
As a general rule, I would have to agree with you. The Free part is where a good 80-90% of the piracy comes from (pure speculation on those number). What GOG is saying though, is that the DRM pushes the people that DRM truly irritates to pirate the game. Maybe they still use dial up or satellite, perhaps they don't have a machine able to run a current gen game and the DRM software, who knows what the reasons behind it may be, but these are the people they mean. The people who are pirating games, not because they want it for free, but it is the only reliable way for them to get it and play it.

I am also with you on the disk being in the drive being quite the annoyance. I typically try to get a nocd patch for my games (technically a form of hacking/piracy as it bypasses the safeguards they build into the game).
 

Wuffykins

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Personally the one thing that pisses me off the most of DRM is that it is a very short sighted approach to stopping Day One piracy, and though many argument has been said about that fact alone I'm not going there. I'm just annoyed at though it's a technology that's advancing steadily, backwards compatibility is really a major issue. Hell, sometimes you have to tinker to get a game working on a newer OS (Oh how I remember the days before DosBox...*sigh*), but nowadays I find myself wrestling more with issues from the DRM rather than tweaking the game to run (as no-worky DRM means no-playie Game).

Keeee-Rikee, just the fun I had with Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy) & its buddy Tages and trying to get them installed (yes, just installed) in Vista/7 was ridiculous as it was, so I can see Mr. Kukawski's point perfectly. Granted, Steam is a good counter to the my main issue with DRM as well (even though there are titles that do add the 'extra security' regardless).

teh_gunslinger said:
tzimize said:
I am fully on board with the guy. I pre-ordered my Witcher 2 from GoG. First pre-order I've done since...maybe forever in my soon to be 29 year old life.
Hey! I'm 29 and this was my first pre-order as well. I got it on gog.com as well, as that seems to be the best way to go about it.

So CDP actually made me deviate from my harsh 'Never ever pre-order' stance. Quite a feat.
And I would seem to be #3... err, being 29 and pre-ordered I mean. Hell, I don't even think my laptop will run the game (the first has its own share of stutters here and there), but I'm just all for putting my money where my mouth is with this (That and I know I'll be putting together a new compy soon enough.)
 

instantbenz

Pixel Pusher
Mar 25, 2009
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When the pirated copy of a game is worth more than the legit version due to DRM bs, of course that increases pirating.

It's similar to buying a table at pier1 or at walmart. Pier1 staff are going to hound you to buy the matching 40'^2 floor rug where walmart staff will just ask if you found everything you were looking for.

If there is more hassle than necessary, your target audience will go with the easier route.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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And this is why I love these guys. Its like they read my private diary, and did what I wish someone would do. A developer that treats its customers like people instead of pirates with fat stacks of cash, making a big new game and releasing it with no DRM, packing the normal edition to the brim with shit-tons of extra content usually only reserved for the specialist of special editions. And its an old-school, stat-based RPG with a large, branching story. Not to mention they don't care too much for the money, and are in it because they want to make really great games.

Just holy shit, I didn't think developers like this existed anymore.

Faky said:
Wouldn't agree completely. Price is a huge factor also. Add regional pricing where some people are forced to pay sometimes even double price for the game and you can see why pirating is a better alternative. Its free and its fair for everyone. Publishers who try to squeeze double amount deserve nothing less than watching millions play for free.
With Witcher 2, if you buy it and end up paying more than it actually costs, GoG will give you the difference back to you. Granted it can only be used on GoG.com, but still. More than anyone else would do.

JourneyThroughHell said:
Cue [user]Irridium[/user] praising CD Projekt for being the gaming messiahs and the bestest developer ever.

In this case, he would be right. This does inspire quite a lot of confidence in the developer.
Eh, I am who I am.

Zefar said:
For the great majority of the people, DRM will be of no issue for them. Every game with a DRM on it and even install limits have never bothered me with anything.

I run the EXE and it's fine. I uninstall it later if I'm not gonna play it again and I'll regain my activation limits. When I want to install it again I just install it and then launch it.

Piracy really have no extra great feature that we don't have. Oh and there have been games that messes up the pirate version when they're playing where as we normal customers don't get those things.

I still find Assassin Creed 2 DRM to be one of the most effective. It stopped pirates for like 3 months or so.
Well thats nice for you and the "majority" of people. Some of us however, hate having to ask permission to play a game we already fucking bought. Any second spent by the DRM trying to validate anything is another second a pirate can just startup and play. DRM is the most anti-consumer thing right next to not being able to return PC games. I have been fucked over by DRM multiple times. Ubisoft's always online DRM pushed me so far I ended up boycotting anything with their name on it. Their DRM is the worst of the worst. Yeah it stopped pirates for a few months, but did the game sell enough to make up for the costs of creating and maintaining these servers? Was it worth having the entire country of Australia locked out of the games that use this DRM for a few weeks because they cocked up the servers(something everyone predicted would happen)?

DRM is a huge issue. And the fact that everyone is so god damn apathetic about it is sickening. Just because you aren't having any issue with DRM, does not mean there is no issue. There is, and its one hell of an issue.

However, I am not unreasonable. There are DRM solutions that are actually decent. Or I guess I should say that there's only one. It is Steam. It actually provides incentives to use it. Integrated friends list, easy-to-get patches, able to download/install anywhere, integrated servers so games don't need to use the pure awful that is Gamespy(why the fuck Crysis 2 uses it, I will never know), achievements(I don't care for 'em, but lots of others do), fucking amazing deals on lots of games, and plenty of other things. Steam gives reasons to use it, perks. All other DRM solutions are purely negative, add nothing, provide no incentive to use them, and are a cancer upon this industry.
 

Waaghpowa

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Apr 13, 2010
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Megacherv said:
Covarr said:
Trust me guys, I'm well aware that Steam is a much better example of DRM than most recent attempts at it. I was just conveying the point that it's not necessarily the issue since there are good examples of it. I have over 120 games on my list, pretty sure I love the damn thing :p