Has Bioware been falling in quality?

[Joccaren]

DA2 was not a disaster, it was an above average game that is unfortunately being compared to its predecessor, which is probably the closest you can get to being in a tolkein world. While the setup in DAO may not have been the most original, the interactions and characters made up for it.

It was not a total disaster, but it was below average. It was the biggest rush job in RPGs since KotOR2, and it shows. The fact that there is 3... maybe 4 or five areas in the whole game wasn't good, and they weren't massive either. I'd daresay some FPS have more overall landmass than DA2.
They completely screwed over elves, giving them all a stupid accent, and they did terrible writing; turning some characters from 1 into massive clichés or retards, where they used to have some semblance of character in 1. That and they retconned the killing of Leliana. BAD move.
Combat is total shambles. As has been said - Too slow for action, too fast for tactics. Its in that awkward place in between where neither is entirely applicable. In addition, spawning waves of enemies are bad design and a rather poor standard in today's industry.
The story is utter crap, being the leadup to a sequel and ending in a sequel hook cliffhanger. The side stories were oft more interesting than the main story, but were given far less time and development.

Honestly, DA2 was anything but above average. Was it being judged and dragged down even further thanks to its tie in to Origins? Yes. Was it great to begin with? No. Was dragging it down thanks to Origins justified? IMO, yes. It is a sequel and as such has standards to live up to. If they wanted to do something different, they should have crafted a new IP to do that in.

 

[Sixcess]

Also if I can say one quick thing about SWTOR why did they keep the dialog wheel for that when it was designed for consoles?

Stick with what you know, regardless of whether or not it makes sense, is pretty much the entire design ethic of SWTOR.

 

[Something Amyss]

6: DLC
First off I have no problem with DLC personally but I don't like that day 1 DLC crap when it's already made and they withhold it because they can.

That's, in reality, a publisher issue. I mean, I can't say Bioware isn't behind it (They keep saying they WANT to do all the things they're doing it), but EA has kind of mandating it across the board. Day 1 DLC? Across the board. Online components? Across the board. Smaller game experience? Across the board.

Some of these problems are clearly Bioware, but things like DLC? It's pretty much the way the wind is blowing.

 

[Karathos]

Also if I can say one quick thing about SWTOR why did they keep the dialog wheel for that when it was designed for consoles?

Stick with what you know, regardless of whether or not it makes sense, is pretty much the entire design ethic of SWTOR.

Seems to be working for them tbh. Why change something that works just for the sake of change?

As for the OP itself - I've so far only lost interest in DA2. Every other Bioware games I've played so far have been thoroughly enjoyable, culminating in TOR. I honestly believe it'lll be their greatest game yet, as long as they stick with it.

 

[The Lunatic]

I liked Mass Effect 1, Dragon Age Origins was pretty good, but, hard to get into as the "LOL BUY MY DLC FUCKER" NPC is kinda a turn off when you first start a game.

Mass Effect 2? Felt like a watered down version of the first game.

Dragon Age 2? Really?

As for the DLC and what-not.

Simply too much of it. I think DA2 released with 20 items of Day-one DLC gained from different retailers, promotions and all sorts of crap like that. Simply way too much.

 

[SextusMaximus]

Well, DA2 is the only really terrible Bioware game. Certain elements of their games keep getting worse over time (they try too hard on the humor, they devote way too much attention to badly written romance subplots, etc) but ME2 was a solid game. Haven't played SWTOR, but people seem to be enjoying it. So my verdict is wait for ME3 to come out.

This all over. Mass Effect 2 was absolutely solid, DA2 was disappointing and average - the only reason it got so much bad press is because it was FROM BioWare, who usually produce excellent gams.

 

[Sixcess]

Also if I can say one quick thing about SWTOR why did they keep the dialog wheel for that when it was designed for consoles?

Stick with what you know, regardless of whether or not it makes sense, is pretty much the entire design ethic of SWTOR.

Seems to be working for them tbh. Why change something that works just for the sake of change?

It's not change for the sake of change. It's change to adapt to a different genre of game, which Bioware simply have not done. As a fan of MMOs as a genre it depresses me that the most high profile release in that genre in years has been made by Bioware more or less exactly as they would make a single player game.

 

[Boozak]

The only excellent games Bioware has ever created were the baldur's gate games. From there on out, the games have been able to maintain a decent level of quality, up until DA2, which flopped. Kotor isn't the incredible game people say it is. It's an incredibly flawed, but good game, just like the ME series and DAO (and perhaps NWN as well). So no, they're just trying out new things, but the quality has been the same since KotoR.

Its one downfall was the mediocre story. And after DA2, mediocre main stories may become a trend for them.

Kotor's story is fairly mediocre as well, only the way they told it was well done. This has been a trend since 2002. Unfortunately, they're still one of the best developers to go to for this, seeing as Black Isle went bankrupt and Obsidian can't seem to get the hang of good gameplay.

I'd say CD Projekt Red are just as capable as Bioware to make a decent RPG, and they dont have the hindrance of EA fucking with all their games. Obsidian seem to be just accepting jobs wherever they can find them,(DS3, Fallout NV, that new South Park RPG)with little care for quality.(I enjoy their games, they just seem abit rushed)

 

[Frostbite3789]

Oh, hey, one of these threads. Hello doom and gloom thread! How are you today? Me? Oh, I'm just fine, slightly tired of people declaring how things are always getting worse constantly.

It's pretty annoying. Especially when they only really use personal experience to back it up. Because they obviously don't understand how the world works. In fact I'm pretty sure it's been shown numerous times that both the DA2 and ME2 hate is just the vocal minority being at it again, and is in no way indicative of how good either game actually is.

 

[SpaceBat]

Obsidian was founded by employees from black isle so there have only ever been two sources that create great wrpg stories

Yeah, I know that. I meant to say with my previous post that Black Isle basically could do everything well (Story, gameplay, you name it). Obsidian, regardless of the fact that they're basically Black Isle 2.0, somehow keep messing up in the gameplay department, which causes people to ignore their games.

Kotor 2's story pretty much destroys Kotor 1 in every single way imaginable, but the gameplay is even worse than in the first Kotor (hard to imagine, I know), which is the reason why it's not exactly popular.

 

[irishda]

Bioware is a far cry from the Jade Empire/KOTOR/BG days. But let's be real here, people tend to put developers on pedestals (see Valve, Bethesda) and ignore the flaws. Bioware has never really been that great at making combat feel awesome, and they've kept the same combat system from KOTOR in all of their RPG's. Come to think of it, they've pretty much been making the same game since KOTOR but with a different skin. That's not to say these aren't good or even great games in some examples. But what's really happening is your view of Bioware is coming back to Earth. The quality's been the same for Bioware this past decade, you're just realizing that quality isn't that spectacular.

 

[LiquidGrape]

Welp, speaking as someone who thought Dragon Age II featured BioWare's most ambitious themes and best cast of characters to date...I'd say they're heading in the right direction in many ways.

The only real issue I had with the game was the focus on combat and the overall lack of polish. It's apparent they were given little over a year to finish the game, which makes what went so very right all the more impressive, I think.

In short, I have my reservations, but I'd still argue BioWare is more than capable of producing inclusive and engaging games.

 

[SpaceBat]

I'd say CD Projekt Red are just as capable as Bioware to make a decent RPG, and they dont have the hindrance of EA fucking with all their games.

Yes, which is why I said that Bioware is ONE of the best developers when it comes to story and character development. CD Projekt games have good writing and their plots and characters are at least of decent quality (Excluding Triss from the first game). Their games need some work in a couple of areas (especially voice acting), but what I like about them most is how they at least try to make choices less black-and-white and create consequences for your actions. They're not nearly as good as obsidian when it comes to that, but they are much better than Bioware and at least on the right track.

Obsidian seem to be just accepting jobs wherever they can find them,(DS3, Fallout NV, that new South Park RPG)with little care for quality.(I enjoy their games, they just seem abit rushed)

They're apparently better at continuing and improving existing work than they are at innovating, but refreshing content is hard to find these days anyway, so at least I'm glad their writing is good.
I am going to disagree with the last part a bit. Yes, their games are often rushed, but I believe that specific fact has less to do with them and more with the publishers (This seems to be the case with Alpha Protocol, for example). They care an incredible amount for their games, but only for the story department. Their writing is often miles above everyone else's, but the rest of their games just suck. That's why I want to love Obsidian so much, but can't bring myself to do it due to their ability to fuck everything else up beyond imagining. Don't get me started on how they keep cutting out story content from their games either.

 

[Exosus]

ME was shit, ME2 was much, much worse shit; At that point I quit playing their games. Jade Empire is easily in my Best Games Ever list, and KOTOR was incredible too. Really what killed it was the radial conversation bit and the fact that they changed writers - every game they ever made was decent gameplay appended to incredible writing and a great story-telling methodology. They apparently fired everyone who was aware of that fact, however, and started making B5 ripoffs with what I'm prepared to call the worst story-telling method in history.

I don't actually know what happened between JE and ME, but what I do know is that they *play* as if they were made by two entirely different developers, one very, very, very good and one at best slightly below average. I tried really hard to like ME because Bioware is (was) well within my top 3 game devs of all time. I even bought the sequel (with real money and everything) but they just do not make good games anymore. Sometimes grandpa goes senile and starts to wet himself and there's a point where face facts. You love him, but you quit loaning him the car. Bioware is at that point.

 

[Xixikal]

I reckon Bioware is exploring it's own little niche of gaming, which it is currently dominating.
Every game has its good and bad points, but in the end, video games are a tool to earn more money. They want to appeal to the masses, and if the masses are shallow and stupid - the games will be too.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

The only excellent games Bioware has ever created were the baldur's gate games. From there on out, the games have been able to maintain a decent level of quality, up until DA2, which flopped. Kotor isn't the incredible game people say it is. It's an incredibly flawed, but good game, just like the ME series and DAO (and perhaps NWN as well). So no, they're just trying out new things, but the quality has been the same since KotoR.

Its one downfall was the mediocre story. And after DA2, mediocre main stories may become a trend for them.

Kotor's story is fairly mediocre as well, only the way they told it was well done. This has been a trend since 2002. Unfortunately, they're still one of the best developers to go to for this, seeing as Black Isle went bankrupt and Obsidian can't seem to get the hang of good gameplay.

Obsidian was founded by employees from black isle so there have only ever been two sources that create great wrpg stories

ot: Bioware is just adjusting to a changing market and the dying of the pureblood rpg genre.
And about the people saying that mass effect 2's story was mediocre i honestly have no idea what your talking about

The retconning of Cerberus, the shoehorning of the player into working with Cerberus, the lack of a main antagonist (it really hows how important Saren was as an identifiable villain),......Shamus did it better than me.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=7004
He gets nitpicky, but a lot of his points are spot on.

 

[IAmTheVoid]

Hey Maxwell- I'd like to say thanks for a well written post and fairly well structured. I don't AGREE with you, but still. It's nice to have somebody who'll actually use their bloody brain before posting!

What most of your issues seem to stem from is an anger at balance. Except for Baldur's Gate, I've never found BioWare games to be challenging- but that's not what I look for in them. I don't want a cakewalk, but I don't want the kind of challenge which comes with playing Civilisation 4 on Immortal, or something. There are some games I play for challenge and some I don't; BioWare just don't DO challenge. They test you and sometimes throw a curveball, but they never make it ridiculously hard, but then again I don't want them to. That's just my opinion, though, and I can see why you as a gamer want further challenge from BioWare.

There's one of your criticisms with DA2 which annoyed me: "being forced to romance Anders or shut him down". Sometimes people make the first move and you have to reject them, even if you're their friend. Why should it be different? I thought it made a nice change of pace, to be honest, considering it's always the player character who initiates the move to jump into people's pants half the time (Zevran being an obvious exception).

Also, the Fade REALLY isn't the Warp. I'm sorry, but it isn't. I'd actually go as far to say as the Fade being one of the more unique things in the BioWare universe. Obviously they share similarities (alternate dimension where mysterious power stems from and demons eat people) but also stark differences (note, the 'good' spirits and the lack of any real order within the fade, unlike the Demon Lords).

But I'm just nitpicking here. Short answer: I don't think they're going downhill- just in a direction you don't like. I think CD Projekt are probably right up your alley.

 

[Dogstile]

Oh, hey, one of these threads. Hello doom and gloom thread! How are you today? Me? Oh, I'm just fine, slightly tired of people declaring how things are always getting worse constantly.

It's pretty annoying. Especially when they only really use personal experience to back it up. Because they obviously don't understand how the world works. In fact I'm pretty sure it's been shown numerous times that both the DA2 and ME2 hate is just the vocal minority being at it again, and is in no way indicative of how good either game actually is.

Eh, i've never been one to shout on forums about how it sucked, but hell, I really couldn't get into DA. It just didn't FEEL like a Bioware game.

^^^^
A guy who usually doesn't complain about games complaining to prove a point

Anyway, op: The only thing EA are going to do is destroy the brand name. Did you know their are seven Biowares now? Yes, seven. It was just one before they joined up.

 

[Bostur]

I notice a very distinct difference in style between the Black Isle games of old and the newer generation of games starting with Kotor and Jade Empire developed by BioWare itself.

The new BioWare style focus on storytelling and puts gameplay on the backseat. I think thats a general trend in post 2000 gaming, it's just more obvious in BioWare titles.

I feel that DA:O is the notable exception, being a much more polished titled than the rest.

ME2 is interesting because I see that as an attempt to focus on core gameplay, it actually is a very competent cover-based shooter in it's own.

 

[Frankster]

I wouldnt say bioware's quality is failling rather its strengths and weaknesses are changing....

That bioware's writing is still considered the "best" out of western rpg developpers today never ceases to mind fuck me. That is their current most glaring weakness imo (see me2, plot wise you just can't defend that thing, do i even need to mention da2?) but at same time, their presentation and mastery of cinematic effects to trick the player into making them think the game is way more awesome then it is, is something biowares becoming really good at (see me2, cinematic and movie like are definitly qualities you can assign it. A lot of the scenes are just beautiful to watch).

Bioware might be losing its touch at old fashioned rpging, and some of its writing team are developping disturbing trends for my tastes (i have little tolerance for joss whedon style quips and attitude), but their games are definitly getting good at being cinematic and when backed by solid gameplay and a popcorn munching story , become more then the sum of their parts in theory.

At least thats what im hoping for with TOR. Though if i play sith warrior i know not to ever let that slave girl free from her shock collar, lest she start quipping on me and i lose my mute button.