Ok thank you for having an incredibly well thought out post. Ok I don't disagree with what you said about the ME points so I'll go to the DA:O points. I said they feel like undead since I know there's a lot of fantasy universes I don't know anything about like lord of the rings or a game of thrones. Though I didn't play as a dwarf after that point I might go do the origin story for the dwarves after this.
For ME2 I wasn't trying to brag but it seriously didn't ever affect me. Though I don't remember any skill taking that long to recharge when I last played through fair enough that's a good way to balance it.
I did own DA2 for a while and it stuck with me in a bad way. Your point on the dialog options all being different spins on the same thing makes sense. Also I did get up to this point in the game but I assume you mean being rejected in real life and I have but I meant being forced to flirt with him or crush his feelings was bad. Why couldn't I just leave him to be gay and not say anything about it when he wasn't even directly asking you out or anything. Also I didn't dig into the code I saw a exact quote from the lead writer saying that about Leliana. Knowing that it appears we are in the same scenario with the auto attack not being on consoles with the developers calling it a feature.
Oh yeah, ME2 had great characterization and solid gameplay. Its one downfall was the mediocre story. And after DA2, mediocre main stories may become a trend for them.
Can you please elaborate? I'm honestly not trolling, I don't understand what was so wrong about DA2's story. The combat and level design I can understand, what with the former clearly being geared more towards console play and the latter being the most egregious symptom of its rushed release date, but the story? I don't really follow.
First off, I thought that the Three Act separation made the acts feel disjointed and it didn't flow well, especially when transitioning between acts. The opening was very weak.
Why couldn't we have had an origin story? Or a prologue? Spend some time in Lothering (an hour or two), introduce us to Hawke's family and get us attached to them. That way, I feel something when one of the siblings die. Instead, someone that I've known for all of five minutes dies. I feel nothing. It felt rushed and incomplete.
The first act was just grinding 50 gold. That isn't a great way to hook players. I had to motivate myself to complete the first act. That isn't a good thing. I don't have any big complaints about the second act (that I remember. I beat it months ago).
I hated the third act.
My choices felt meaningless. That mage I saved earlier? She went crazy and I have to kill her. I tried being nice to the mages all game and what to they do? Kidnap my sister to try to get me to side with them. After I had already voiced my support for them multiple times. Anders blows up the Chantry and the only reasonable person in this whole mess no matter what. And you fight both faction leaders no matter what. The ending is the same regardless, and it ends on a big cliffhanger.
BG2 was Bio's best game
KOTOR is a bad game that usually gets a pass because it's SW + lightsabers.
ME1 is better a better shooter (very mediocre) than KOTOR is a tactical RPG.
DA:O was Bio's most ambitious game because of the origins and for daring to not make it an action-RPG in this decade. Flawed but with some redeeming qualites.
ME2 is a little better as a shooter than ME1.
DA2 is a crappy compromise; the game sucks both as an action game and as a tactical game. Copy-pasted dungeons and the worst encounter design ever, make this a dirty cash-in.
I ignored some some titles there like JE, but this list is enough to show that while Bioware are inconsistent in quality, there's no single long decline. ME3 will prolly be better than DA2, because ME Bioware's flagship series and ME3 may turn out better than ME2 also. Too early or far too late to call a decline now.
Yes Bioware's quality has been falling of late. Dragon Age Origins was the last "Bioware as you knew them" game. After that many of the writers left the company. Also because Bioware is essentially controlled by EA they have timetables that must be met for game releases. This often leads to a higher quantity of games with lower quality. With Bioware working on the ME series, the DA series, a new RTS game and DLC for all of these games it's easy to see how the writers can run out of ideas and the overall quality of the games can be diminished.
Oh and let's not forget they will need to be providing constant updates for their new MMO.
EA has destroyed many good gaming companies in the past and it appears Bioware is next on the chopping block.
Eh, I think they have actually gotten better (at least from where they were 5 years ago). After KOTOR they seemed to kind of hit a slump, turning out good, but not great, games until DA:O came out. Since then, I have greatly enjoyed every single one of their games I have played (NOTE: Still have not played DA2 and SW:TOR, so I can't comment on that one). Suffice to say: Opinions. Like brains (or certain other body parts), everybody has them. Not everyone has to agree.
I have to say that although I really loved DAO, DA2 was a bit of a let down.
I did like the story, but there was so little of it spread so thinly that I felt like I was just playing the first third of the game and the whole 2nd and 3rd parts had been cut out. The real thing that got on my nerves was how little content there was. One big city then a handful of random camps and whatnot. No sprawling dungeons (such as the Deepmines and the Elven ruins of the first game), and EVERY single dungeon was a bloody copy-paste. That really got on my nerves; why bother to have side quests at all if it's just going to be the same tiny little cave over and over again?
Then there was Anders. I liked Anders, in DAO's expansion he was my favourite, and when I heard that he would be a relationship character in DA2 I got excited. But I certainly didn't get Anders. I got a half-attempt at a dark-and-broody character who was done so badly that he became just and unlikable medieval emo. And Fenris? I didn't particularly want to date a mageist (being a mage myself) so I ended up having all of my characters become lesbians for the much better portrayed Merril and Isabella. Although I do thank Bioware for giving us female/male homosexual players valid male romance choices, it would have been nice to have been given good choices. And I hated the random cameos by all the first game characters. They have their models from the first game, why not fully include eg. Zevran, Nathaniel etc? Don't just have them as tiny parts of random sidequests!
OT: I haven't played any other Bioware games so I can't entirely comment on their possible downward spiral of quality, but as far as DA2 goes when compared to DAO there was a huge loss of quality along the way.
Now Bioware it's time to stop faffing about and make Jade Empire 2.
Oh yeah, ME2 had great characterization and solid gameplay. Its one downfall was the mediocre story. And after DA2, mediocre main stories may become a trend for them.
First off, I thought that the Three Act separation made the acts feel disjointed and it didn't flow well, especially when transitioning between acts. The opening was very weak.
Why couldn't we have had an origin story? Or a prologue? Spend some time in Lothering (an hour or two), introduce us to Hawke's family and get us attached to them. That way, I feel something when one of the siblings die. Instead, someone that I've known for all of five minutes dies. I feel nothing. It felt rushed and incomplete.
The first act was just grinding 50 gold. That isn't a great way to hook players. I had to motivate myself to complete the first act. That isn't a good thing. I don't have any big complaints about the second act (that I remember. I beat it months ago).
I hated the third act.
My choices felt meaningless. That mage I saved earlier? She went crazy and I have to kill her. I tried being nice to the mages all game and what to they do? Kidnap my sister to try to get me to side with them. After I had already voiced my support for them multiple times. Anders blows up the Chantry and the only reasonable person in this whole mess no matter what. And you fight both faction leaders no matter what. The ending is the same regardless, and it ends on a big cliffhanger.
Before I begin, allow me to rage against the new message features. I wouldn't you have responded if I hadn't been paranoid enough to take it into my own hands.
First off, let me compliment you on your comments on the first act.You're right, there really aren't much stakes at that point, and I'm beginning to suspect that something got cut out.
I'm not 100% upset regarding the whole "mages still go crazy thing". The one big problem with the Paragon/Renegade system is that if I know there are two ways to handle a problem, and both have the exact same outcome and in some cases its even better to go Paragon, why would I ever go Renegade other than to roleplay a dick?
That whole mages kidnap your sister thing is stupid, and it never happened to me(templar Carver first playthrough, dead Bethany in the Deep Roads second one), but I'm just going to put that down to Bioware biting off more than they can chew time and technology wise, and I'm hoping future ventures don't have this kind of problem(though politics making people act like unreasonable dicks may be the most realistic part of DA2).
One thing that actually really bothered me about DA2's storyline is that it just doesn't have moments with as much punch as DA:O. The dilemma with the Jarl's kid blew my mind when I first encountered, and in respect to moments like that, DA2 does feel a bit lacking.
Reasons why I actually liked DA2 enough to pseudodefend it:
While it definitely doesn't have moments like DA:O, it has clear themes that are present throughout the game. This was a game about something. In its moments, DA:O did come across some really interesting themes, but it never seemed to stick to one for too long. In art, theme reigns supreme, and this makes me very optimistic regarding future Bioware games(assuming the new ones have a bit more polish).
The characters weren't all as interesting as their predecessors, but their problems actually felt a bit more like proper character arcs. ME2 also had a lot of this with Mordin, Miranda and Garrus's loyalty missions, but here, I get more of a feeling of resolution with the characters than I did with DA:O's.
And, lest we forget, this does break Bioware's previous habit of using same formulaic plot over and over. Probably not in the best way, but again, if done better in the future...
And, lastly, I was still interested. Repetitive as it may be, Kirkwall was still place I wanted to understand. When things actually started going in the 2nd and 3rd act, I wanted to know what was going to happen. Also, regarding your comments to the flow of the narrative, while not everything meshes well, it also skirts its predecessors problem of having several disconnected story arcs which drag on way too long, such as the Dwarf and Mage Tower missions. Say what you will, but I never got the sense that any portion of the plot was dragging(disregarding the occasional non-existent stakes of the first act)
Jesus, that was the longest post I've ever done. Hope the wall of text doesn't dissuade you and I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I've said.
TOR is good because they pulled a lot of their best staff onto it. That's why ME2 and DA2 were both really similar and vaguely shitty; they brought in new people who are trying too hard, plus I firmly believe despite all BioWare's nervous, abused-spouse-like protestations, EA is demanding that they increase their "mainstream appeal", or "broaden their demographic", or whatever it is that talentless executives say when they think quality is irrelevant to sales.
I was tempted to be all snarky and just say "Yes." and leave it at that, but god forbid I don't write an entire paragraph if I feel the need to say anything, Escapist.
Oh yeah, ME2 had great characterization and solid gameplay. Its one downfall was the mediocre story. And after DA2, mediocre main stories may become a trend for them.
First off, I thought that the Three Act separation made the acts feel disjointed and it didn't flow well, especially when transitioning between acts. The opening was very weak.
Why couldn't we have had an origin story? Or a prologue? Spend some time in Lothering (an hour or two), introduce us to Hawke's family and get us attached to them. That way, I feel something when one of the siblings die. Instead, someone that I've known for all of five minutes dies. I feel nothing. It felt rushed and incomplete.
The first act was just grinding 50 gold. That isn't a great way to hook players. I had to motivate myself to complete the first act. That isn't a good thing. I don't have any big complaints about the second act (that I remember. I beat it months ago).
I hated the third act.
My choices felt meaningless. That mage I saved earlier? She went crazy and I have to kill her. I tried being nice to the mages all game and what to they do? Kidnap my sister to try to get me to side with them. After I had already voiced my support for them multiple times. Anders blows up the Chantry and the only reasonable person in this whole mess no matter what. And you fight both faction leaders no matter what. The ending is the same regardless, and it ends on a big cliffhanger.
Before I begin, allow me to rage against the new message features. I wouldn't you have responded if I hadn't been paranoid enough to take it into my own hands.
First off, let me compliment you on your comments on the first act.You're right, there really aren't much stakes at that point, and I'm beginning to suspect that something got cut out.
I'm not 100% upset regarding the whole "mages still go crazy thing". The one big problem with the Paragon/Renegade system is that if I know there are two ways to handle a problem, and both have the exact same outcome and in some cases its even better to go Paragon, why would I ever go Renegade other than to roleplay a dick?
That whole mages kidnap your sister thing is stupid, and it never happened to me(templar Carver first playthrough, dead Bethany in the Deep Roads second one), but I'm just going to put that down to Bioware biting off more than they can chew time and technology wise, and I'm hoping future ventures don't have this kind of problem(though politics making people act like unreasonable dicks may be the most realistic part of DA2).
One thing that actually really bothered me about DA2's storyline is that it just doesn't have moments with as much punch as DA:O. The dilemma with the Jarl's kid blew my mind when I first encountered, and in respect to moments like that, DA2 does feel a bit lacking.
Reasons why I actually liked DA2 enough to pseudodefend it:
While it definitely doesn't have moments like DA:O, it has clear themes that are present throughout the game. This was a game about something. In its moments, DA:O did come across some really interesting themes, but it never seemed to stick to one for too long. In art, theme reigns supreme, and this makes me very optimistic regarding future Bioware games(assuming the new ones have a bit more polish).
The characters weren't all as interesting as their predecessors, but their problems actually felt a bit more like proper character arcs. ME2 also had a lot of this with Mordin, Miranda and Garrus's loyalty missions, but here, I get more of a feeling of resolution with the characters than I did with DA:O's.
And, lest we forget, this does break Bioware's previous habit of using same formulaic plot over and over. Probably not in the best way, but again, if done better in the future...
And, lastly, I was still interested. Repetitive as it may be, Kirkwall was still place I wanted to understand. When things actually started going in the 2nd and 3rd act, I wanted to know what was going to happen. Also, regarding your comments to the flow of the narrative, while not everything meshes well, it also skirts its predecessors problem of having several disconnected story arcs which drag on way too long, such as the Dwarf and Mage Tower missions. Say what you will, but I never got the sense that any portion of the plot was dragging(disregarding the occasional non-existent stakes of the first act)
Jesus, that was the longest post I've ever done. Hope the wall of text doesn't dissuade you and I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I've said.
Oh, the character missions and the way that you interacted with the characters was a big improvement over Origins. It wasn't just "tell me your life story at the camp" and "give gift to get into their pants". I was just addressing the main story. The characters (as usual) are the best part of the game.
I applaud Bioware for trying something new, but it wasn't done very well.
And yeah, it had the underlying Mage/Templar conflict that was hinted at and alluded to throughout the game. That was okay, but again, I hated the payoff/execution.
Yes, thank god there wasn't another long Fade quest or unbearably long slog through the Deep Roads (my least favorite parts of Origins).
DA2 was a game with a lot of interesting ideas that were just poorly executed to me. It did some things right (the way character quests/interaction were handled, class balancing), but the bad outweighed the good for me.
And we all hate the new message feature. I do it too. I'll be surfing the board then notice that I have two messages. It isn't all that noticeable anymore.
Lessee here, gonna address a bunch of random points in order:
DAO: i bought the collector's edition so i didn't deal with the DLC issues
ME2 bad story: it wasn't as much a story game as ME1, but it was a bit more of a character game. the loyalty missions especially helped your party develop as characters and resolve important issues, while the part member missions in ME1 ("recover wrex's family armor") were far more simple. I'm hoping that bioware can pull one out and manage to cover both bases in ME3, but we'll see.
I do really like RPGs, but i'd always take a game with a good story and characters and worse inventory/stat management than a game with a bad story and good inventory/stat management.
My biggest beef with ME:2 as compared to the original, is that you could remove ME:2 from the trilogy of games, and effectively no difference would be made to the story (excluding that piece of DLC that came out). Sure, there are some new characters and now Cerberus is dicking around, but at the end of ME2, the reapers are set to invade and Captain Sheperd is no closer to figuring out how to stop them.
Dammit Bioware, you don't get trilogies. This is your standard trilogy structure
1st game, set the stakes, 2nd game, raise the stakes,
3rd game, shit go wild, the end.
It's a very very simple concept, but you managed to make it go:
1st game, set the stakes,
2nd game, leave the stakes exactly as they are,
3rd game, shit go wild, the end.
TOR is good because they pulled a lot of their best staff onto it. That's why ME2 and DA2 were both really similar and vaguely shitty; they brought in new people who are trying too hard, plus I firmly believe despite all BioWare's nervous, abused-spouse-like protestations, EA is demanding that they increase their "mainstream appeal", or "broaden their demographic", or whatever it is that talentless executives say when they think quality is irrelevant to sales.
I was tempted to be all snarky and just say "Yes." and leave it at that, but god forbid I don't write an entire paragraph if I feel the need to say anything, Escapist.
hey now to be fair ME2 suffered from "middle book syndrome" were its too early to bring on the big baddies but too late to just go back and fight regular enimes. so they did what all second books, movies,or games do, they did character depth and had anok bad guy to end it with.(btw the final boss in ME2 was kinda BS but not the worst ive seen)
I cant be the only one who noticed that (with the exceptions on ME2 and DA2)all of their games were nearly identical (play Knights of the old republic, then DAO).
I cant be the only one who noticed that (with the exceptions on ME2 and DA2)all of their games were nearly identical (play Knights of the old republic, then DAO).
The games not so much...the characters however are almost universal throughout Bioware Games.
Lawful Good Male Buddy
Innocent Woman
Mean Woman
Honorable Warrior
Neutral Mercenary character
I'm sure the list goes on but those come to mind off the bat.
The problem is that Bioware have garnered this reputation (perhaps rightly so, I'll admit, I've never played any of their older stuff) for being producers of very good rpgs. Saying that though, they're never going to be able to live up to the standards that people (fans) are going to expect of them. I think part of the problem is that they're listening to the fans too much. So much debate went into what canon femshep should look like, or whether they should show Tali's face. All this pandering to the fans every whim is weakening the games. Leave all that stuff for the fanfic Bioware.
In regards to Dragon Age 2...
I do feel the need to defend this game somewhat. Don't know why. I enjoyed it. I've said it before in these forums, but I'll say again here. Dragon Age 2 is not a bad game. It is however a terrible sequel. Yes, it was rushed, and the repeated dungeons got tiresome, but the game itself wasn't that bad. And in regards to the spawning mobs every two minutes, yes, its a cheap mechanic to pad the gameplay, but looked at from a story perspective, the whole game is told by an unreliable narrator. I'm not saying its excusable, but when you look at it from the perspective of Varric saying 'and then we got jumped by fifty guys and we wiped them out' it kinda makes sense.
Ultimately though, Mass Effect 3'll be the last Bioware game I'll be getting, none of their other output interests me now.
Besides the dip in quality with Dragon Age 2, I haven't felt any true lapse in overall polish with their games.
Mass Effect 2 was very good actually. Despite it's general lack of difficultly, the story was engaging and mostly all player choice felt meaningful.
I've also been playing SW:ToR since beta, and I can safely say it is an excellent game. I originally was going to pass, as after my long stint with WoW I had sworn off MMOs, but my love for both Bioware games and the Kotor series was enough for me to give the beta a try. They have done such a good job, and at most times it feels more like a Bioware RPG with co-op rather than a full blown MMO.
So, OP, I must disagree, I believe Bioware is only getting better.
No not really. I loved Mass Effect 1(great story) despite the IKEA side mission dungeons. Dragon Age Origins as well. Mass Effect 2 felt like a step up from ME2, with every area being unique and continuing with the original interesting story. I also liked the companion dialogue. Mining was annoying, but not half as annoying as the Mako. If I had a choice between the two I'd pick mining every single time.
DA2 was a let down(but an expected one - unlike most people I actually looked at the respective development times and realized they had nowhere near enough time), but I still loved it. I won't try to pretend that having a total of four dungeons was anywhere near acceptable, however.
For people who liked DA2 and ME2 no, there wasn't a drop in quality.
For people who didn't like them yes, it did.
For people who idolize the Baldur's Gate series, the quality's dropped since then.
I personally never played DA2 so I can't say anything about that, however, repeated dungeons never bothered me before.
I liked ME2 but I didn't like them altering the logic of the Mass Effect universe in reference to the weapons and the last boss was rather stupid. That being said I still enjoyed the game overall.
I wouldn't say the quality has dropped, but I would say the focus of their games is starting to deviate from the style I prefer.
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