Has Bioware been falling in quality?

[The Madman]

Quality?

No, not at all. Dragon Age 2 was pretty obviously a bit rushed, but that's one game among many so I'd not be willing to judge the entire studio on that one product. In terms of polish and quality, even game design and mechanics, Bioware are better than they've ever been. They're right up there with the best I'd say, alongside studio such as Valve or Blizzard renown for their polish and eye for quality.

I think the problem many people have with them is that while their quality has only improved over the years, their philosophies and direction have changed.

They don't really make the same sort of rpg experience they used to, and by all appearances have no intention of ever really doing so again. Slowly steering away from the tactical party-based narrative experiences steeped in DnD style presentation to a more linear but cinematic action feel that's less DnD and more Die Hard.

No necessarily a bad thing at all, many no doubt love the shift in direction. But for many fans of the 'old' Bioware, so to speak, it's sure to ruffle a few feathers.

At least that's how I see it!

 

[80Maxwell08]

I cant be the only one who noticed that (with the exceptions on ME2 and DA2)all of their games were nearly identical (play Knights of the old republic, then DAO).

Hold on a moment.....there.

I will give ME2&DA2 that it did try to break out of this.

 

[Scars Unseen]

The first act was just grinding 50 gold. That isn't a great way to hook players. I had to motivate myself to complete the first act. That isn't a good thing.

That sound's familiar, for some reason. Where have I run into a quest like that before... Oh yeah, that's right. It's the exact same thing you had to do in Baldur's Gate 2, arguably the best game Bioware ever made(only you needed 15000 gold). And just like in that game, there is an alternative(namely, making a deal with someone you really should know not to).

Now I won't argue that Bioware's work hasn't fallen in quality, but I think that some people are looking at the wrong games for proof. DA2 was proof that a one year development cycle will demand some shortcuts, and that is it. Other than the copypasta issue, I find DA2 to be more enjoyable than DAO most times. No, the turning point for Bioware was when they left the Infinity Engine behind and started putting more effort into their 3D engines than they did their gameplay. The only thing that saved NWN was the toolkit and its community of modders. KOTOR, while enjoyable, had nowhere near the scope of BG2. Jade Empire was good(and I could wish for a sequel), but marked a definite departure from Bioware's RPG roots, and again, was limited mostly to a path.

This isn't really an issue with Bioware, however. This is just the direction that the industry took. You changed with the industry or you got left behind by the industry. That's just the way it is with big productions. Bethesda did the same thing. So did Obsidian(if you consider their previous work as Black Isle. So did pretty much everyone else that's survived. So yeah, Bioware's current games today aren't as good as they were a decade ago. But they're still good, and so I still buy them.

 

[TheMagicLemur]

hey now to be fair ME2 suffered from "middle book syndrome" were its too early to bring on the big baddies but too late to just go back and fight regular enimes. so they did what all second books, movies,or games do, they did character depth and had anok bad guy to end it with.(btw the final boss in ME2 was kinda BS but not the worst ive seen)

That's not what my issue was though. My issue was with the drop in writing quality (people throwing around cursewords out of the blue didn't give the writing any extra gravitas, it just sounded like kids who just learned swear words) and the focus on action at the expense of the story. I knew EXACTLY who they were trying to appeal to when the first trailer of Jack dropped "Who's the bad-ass biotic *****" nearly kept me from even RENTING that fucking game).

Also, I feel that the new lead designer for the ME/DA series is a little too insistent on shoehorning in anime/manga aesthetics (Look at Flemeth in DA2... ridiculous and VERY Final Fantasy-ish). I have nothing against blending western and eastern styles, but this person/dev team/whatever sucks at it. Combine that with their pretty clear transition to style over substance, and you see why I don't have much faith in BioWare these days. "It's a BioWare game" is no longer enough for me to assume good quality.

Also, no. The boss fight in ME2 was STUPID. Being able to kill a (utterly fucking silly humanoid) Reaper with your GUN completely, absolutely, positively undercut any and all threat the Reapers posed, in my opinion. I don't want[/] Shepard to be some unstoppable action-hero badass. I can watch any number of boring action movies or play any number of insipid action games if I want that. With BioWare, I expect solid writing throughout. They set a very high standard for themselves, and have repeatedly failed to live up to it.

Except in The Old Republic, where they put all the talent, apparently.

 

[JB1528]

Oh hey look, a thread where a vocal hardcore minority bitches about how they just don't make games like they did back in 199X, the good old days......Yeah I'm going to leave now.

 

[everythingbeeps]

DA2 is the "worst" Bioware game, though aside from some glaring problems (reused environments, shitty story), it's still pretty damn good. And Mass Effect 2, on the other hand, blew ME1 out of the water. So no, I wouldn't say they're getting worse.

 

[Scars Unseen]

That's not what my issue was though. My issue was with the drop in writing quality (people throwing around cursewords out of the blue didn't give the writing any extra gravitas, it just sounded like kids who just learned swear words) and the focus on action at the expense of the story. I knew EXACTLY who they were trying to appeal to when the first trailer of Jack dropped "Who's the bad-ass biotic *****" nearly kept me from even RENTING that fucking game).

Emphasis for hilarity.

Also, I feel that the new lead designer for the ME/DA series is a little too insistent on shoehorning in anime/manga aesthetics (Look at Flemeth in DA2... ridiculous and VERY Final Fantasy-ish)

Yes, very Final Fantasy.

Also, no. The boss fight in ME2 was STUPID. Being able to kill a (utterly fucking silly humanoid) Reaper with your GUN completely, absolutely, positively undercut any and all threat the Reapers posed, in my opinion.

Agreed, though one could plausibly assume that the nigh invulnerability that Reapers have comes with age and plot necessity.

 

[ecoho]

hey now to be fair ME2 suffered from "middle book syndrome" were its too early to bring on the big baddies but too late to just go back and fight regular enimes. so they did what all second books, movies,or games do, they did character depth and had anok bad guy to end it with.(btw the final boss in ME2 was kinda BS but not the worst ive seen)

That's not what my issue was though. My issue was with the drop in writing quality (people throwing around cursewords out of the blue didn't give the writing any extra gravitas, it just sounded like kids who just learned swear words) and the focus on action at the expense of the story. I knew EXACTLY who they were trying to appeal to when the first trailer of Jack dropped "Who's the bad-ass biotic *****" nearly kept me from even RENTING that fucking game).

Also, I feel that the new lead designer for the ME/DA series is a little too insistent on shoehorning in anime/manga aesthetics (Look at Flemeth in DA2... ridiculous and VERY Final Fantasy-ish). I have nothing against blending western and eastern styles, but this person/dev team/whatever sucks at it. Combine that with their pretty clear transition to style over substance, and you see why I don't have much faith in BioWare these days. "It's a BioWare game" is no longer enough for me to assume good quality.

Also, no. The boss fight in ME2 was STUPID. Being able to kill a (utterly fucking silly humanoid) Reaper with your GUN completely, absolutely, positively undercut any and all threat the Reapers posed, in my opinion. I don't want[/] Shepard to be some unstoppable action-hero badass. I can watch any number of boring action movies or play any number of insipid action games if I want that. With BioWare, I expect solid writing throughout. They set a very high standard for themselves, and have repeatedly failed to live up to it.

Except in The Old Republic, where they put all the talent, apparently.

oh i see what you mean now and can understand what you ment but to be fair the whole last boss fight was you basicly walking into the nicu of a hospital and punching a baby to put it in perspective.

well to each their own at least we can agree about TOR.

 

[Samus Aran but a man]

I didn't like Mass Effect, but I believe Mass Effect 2 is one of the greatest games ever made, so I think not.

 

[Bobbity]

I would argue that TOR has had more to do with it than EA. EA has had a negative effect, true, in terms of DLC, and, well DA2, but TOR has taken Bioware's best off its other two franchises, and left them the poorer for it. Mass Effect 2's writing took a turn for the worse,[footnote]Still good - I love ME2 - but the writing simply wasn't of the same quality as that of the original game. People started throwing around swear words for no real reason, the choices were back to black and white and there were a couple of noticeable plotholes. Besides, what the fuck did they do to Liara? I'm glad we got LotSB, or I might have had an aneurysm.[/footnote] DA2 suffered from a massive lack of environments - amongst a host of other concerns - and from the leaked plot, ME3 looks like a dog's breakfast. In essence, they've taken a backseat to EA's desperate attempt to gain a share of the MMO market, and Bioware's current franchises are suffering for it.

Call me optimistic, but now that TOR is actually out there, I'm hoping that the quality of DA and ME[footnote]This isn't as a criticism of the second game, but rather everything I've seen of or read about the third. Seriously, it looks like shit. Did you see that Thresher Worm trailer? That had incredible potential to be awesome and dramatic, but they somehow managed to make it utterly boring instead.[/footnote] improves dramatically.

Except that EA has now put them to work on Command and Conquer. I mean, what the fuck?

Not to mention that we're still waiting for a Jade Empire sequel.

 

[Xannieros]

I found every one of those game on your list to be enjoyable. I have experienced close to no glitches and bugs while playing. Peoples expectations are too high.

Only gripes is about the DLC, and it's not just Bioware that's riding this cashcow to our wallets. And Dragon Age 2 was a little disappointing. Being that it watered down RPG elements and limited amount of level maps.

So no. I don't think quality is falling, its being taken away with DLC.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Except that EA has now put them to work on Command and Conquer. I mean, what the fuck?

That's not really Bioware [http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39073/Victory_Games_Latest_EA_Studio_To_Be_Renamed_BioWare.php]

 

[80Maxwell08]

Oh hey look, a thread where a vocal hardcore minority bitches about how they just don't make games like they did back in 199X, the good old days......Yeah I'm going to leave now.

Once again please read the first sentence before saying anything.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Also if I can say one quick thing about SWTOR why did they keep the dialog wheel for that when it was designed for consoles?

Just thought I'd address this one real quick. While class story dialogue may give you all the time you want, any grouped dialogue is on a timer, so that you don't get stuck in a convo by someone who got disconnected, went AFK, or just likes to troll people in game by not letting the dialogue move forward. This being the case, it is absolutely necessary that conversation options be concise and easily distinguishable at a glance, so that you don't miss out on an opportunity to respond(this happened to me once in the Hammer Station flashpoint because the the options sounded similar and didn't really match up well with the dialogue leading up to them). The dialogue wheel does this quite well, where as the old school Baldur's Gate style dialogue lists would not.

 

[Robert632]

I'm going to use that quote from Socrates about children.( You know the one.)

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Now I'm sure the majority of people are saying "The fuck does some old dead guy hating on children have to do with Bioware dropping in quality or not?", And you'd be right, the connection is tenuous at best, but it is an example of what I'm trying to say.

Socrates thought the children of his generation were greedy little shits. Years later, our parents generation was thought of as the same thing by their own parents. Our parents's parents generation was thought of as the same thing. Another conmen thing was that they thought their own generation, the one that had just been derided as full of greedy little douches, were much superior to the new generation. Why would they think that?

Another example that will help me explain my view is a episode of How I Met Your Mother. The plot of the episode was that one of the characters, Marshall, want's to find the burger joint where he ate his first New York burger. It was the best burger he had ever eaten, and afterwards every other burger tasted like feet. Him and his friends even try a multitude of burgers in their quest, with them declaring ever burger awesome while he just pines for the lost burger joint. What makes it relevant to this situation for me though, was the description of the burger, which just sounded like a normal burger, just purple prosed to sound awesome( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleProse -In case you don't know what purple prose is).

So no, I don't think they dropped in quality, because "Quality" is such a matter of opinion that declaring them better or worse rests almost entirely on how you first encountered them.

[sub] Wow, I think this my most pseudo-intellectual post ever![/sub]

 

[Compatriot Block]

It's truly incredible how after Dragon Age 2 so many people retroactively decided that all of Bioware's games have been declining in quality. If that game had never been released, I'd bet that a lot more people would be shouting about how awesome Mass Effect 3 is going to be and how there needs to be a Dragon Age sequel.

 

[XUnsafeNormalX]

It's truly incredible how after Dragon Age 2 so many people retroactively decided that all of Bioware's games have been declining in quality. If that game had never been released, I'd bet that a lot more people would be shouting about how awesome Mass Effect 3 is going to be and how there needs to be a Dragon Age sequel.

Don't forget about Mass Effect 2. A lot of people weren't happy with the new direction and butchered plot.

 

[DustyDrB]

It's truly incredible how after Dragon Age 2 so many people retroactively decided that all of Bioware's games have been declining in quality. If that game had never been released, I'd bet that a lot more people would be shouting about how awesome Mass Effect 3 is going to be and how there needs to be a Dragon Age sequel.

Don't forget about Mass Effect 2. A lot of people weren't happy with the new direction and butchered plot.

I never heard many people complaining about ME2 until after Dragon Age 2 came out. ME2 is still my favorite game of all time.

 

[XUnsafeNormalX]

It's truly incredible how after Dragon Age 2 so many people retroactively decided that all of Bioware's games have been declining in quality. If that game had never been released, I'd bet that a lot more people would be shouting about how awesome Mass Effect 3 is going to be and how there needs to be a Dragon Age sequel.

Don't forget about Mass Effect 2. A lot of people weren't happy with the new direction and butchered plot.

I never heard many people complaining about ME2 until after Dragon Age 2 came out. ME2 is still my favorite game of all time.

Well then you didn't see it like I did. I thought the combat definitely flowed a lot better than it did in ME1 but the story was just a way to cash in on a cheap sequel. Compared to the overall plot of the Mass Effect Universe ME 2 might as well have been a meaningless fan fiction. They took the ending of ME 1 and threw it out the window, replaced the Geth with Collectors and then did the whole thing over again.

I was disappointed to say the least.

 

[Bobbity]

Except that EA has now put them to work on Command and Conquer. I mean, what the fuck?

That's not really Bioware [http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39073/Victory_Games_Latest_EA_Studio_To_Be_Renamed_BioWare.php]

Thank you for that news, now I'm happy.

Except that EA is now just slapping the Bioware name on almost every developer it buys. Damn, but I really hate EA.