Hating Dark Souls?

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Burst6

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3LANCER said:
I haven't yet got my copy of the game but from what i've heard DS is just hard hack'n'slash with no backstory, not many RPG elements, with simple attacks (saw some gameplay where the character can only swing sword left or right) but always overpowered enemies. I'm not sure what people see in that game, if it's just "Super Meat boy hard" then it sounds ok and almost fun, but if it's constant insta-deaths without any visible clues of countering monsters then screw that.
Nah its not that. Monsters do a lot of damage and can kill you pretty quickly, but you can do the same to them.

You have about 6 different ways of attacking an enemy. Light attack, strong attack, jump attack, run attack, dodge attack, and the kick attack (depending on the weapon you're using, this can be replaced with a retreating attack where you dodge back).

You can also wield every weapon (except fist weapons) in 1 or two hands, so you get more attack options. The attacks are usually simple (there are weapons that have powerful special attacks), but they get the job done.

And there IS a story. It's just out of the way and needs to be pieced together from item descriptions and different NPC's. You can avoid it entirely if you want.
 

flaming_squirrel

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Twilight_guy said:
I how this game has brought back the biggest bastard to ever curse gaming: confusing bugs and challenge. If its a bug and someone notes that then everyone just says that its actually part of the challenge and stop being a baby. I think all QA departments should just say bugs are intentional challenges and kick off for the day. (before you even say it, you know this games has bugs and you know that people are confusing bugs and challenge. If you want to reply to this post, don't because I'm not listening).
Really immature approach to discussion, 'here's my opinion but now my fingers are now in my ears'.

But what bugs are these? Other then falling through the world once I've encountered none.
 

demoman_chaos

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kouriichi said:
-My snippers, they are very dull now-
Go to the graveyard area in the shrine and find the winged spear (run past the skeletons). It makes everything a lot easier. You can poke with your shield up at things far out of reach of hitting you. It does pretty good damage for a starting weapon and doesn't have high requirements. Once you get to the church behind the big pig, you will find a halberd outside the front door. It is beasty. I always make it a Divine Halberd because the extra boost via magic damage adn you can kill skeletons with a divine weapon.
 

DanielBrown

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Guess I'll roll pyromancer then...
It's actually the same thing in Demon's Souls. My first char was a knight, which I struggled with, but since I knew the game was gonna woop my ass I stuck with it. Eventually finished the game and felt quite happy with myself... and never wanted to pick it up again.
However, in anticipation for Dark Souls, which should arrive in a few days, I started it up again and made a royal spell caster. Omfg is it easy now. Two shotting everything from range, and if something should get close I just dodge away. Have hardly died at all, but I'm currently stuck on Maneater since I keep getting knocked/dodge off the damn ledge.
One could say that it goes better because I know the levels. It isn't true though. Apart from 1-1, 1-2 and half of 2-1 I have apparently forgotten everything, so it's kind of like exploring a new game!

I prefer melee with a huge shield in this game still though. Makes me feel a bit more safe.
 

Exius Xavarus

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May 19, 2010
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flaming_squirrel said:
ExiusXavarus said:
Now, if you're referring to the Asylum Demon during the tutorial, you can kill him with your fists. I know, I did it. It's not a preferable way to fight him, but I did it simply so I could say I did.
That must have taken quite some time.
It did. :{
 

Watchmacallit

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ExiusXavarus said:
Rem45 said:
ExiusXavarus said:
There's nothing in the game that can't be killed right away.
There is that one enemy that you lose to the first time no matter what. But yeah, then you go back and kill the spamming bastard. Love your argument, glad to see I'm not the only one that sees this as the player's fault and not the game's.
If you're referring to the Asylum Demon during the tutorial, you can kill him with your fists. I know, I did it. It's not a preferable way to fight him, but I did it simply so I could say I did.

Now, if you're referring to Seath the Scaleless, the first time you battle him, that fight is a scripted event. You can't advance the Duke's Archives without losing to Seath the first time, because the corridors will be blocked by bookcases.
Yeah I was talking about Seath and I know its scripted. As per the bonfire and being given trhe chance to fight him again. The only reason I didn't kill the Assylum Demon with fists is because I don't have that much patience. You are a god
 

nasteypenguin

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I think that the problem with calling a game difficult is that difficulty is more opinionated than you might think. For instance, while I don't remember encountering many of the problems you've listed; I do remember falling off of ledges several times, but personally I put that down to lack of situational awareness than cheapness on the games part. That's just me however obviously you and likely many others think otherwise, but you have to realise that what you find cheap, other people may find challenging.

On a side note, my biggest gripe with the game is that half the time I have/had no idea what I was supposed to be doing in regards to the plot. There was something about a pilgrimage and a couple bells but most of the time I was just following cut-scenes. I realised later by backtracking that at certain points my motivation was explained by an npc or two but by that time I had been confused for several hours.
 

Hazy

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kouriichi said:
1: No reason to be melee. Ive played 3 different classes, and so far, ive noticed a trend. I pick Knight, and the game is.... Difficult. Your weapon feels like it does nothing to anything but basic undead, theres no real point to armor when your shield blocks 100% physical damage and you can dodge everything else, and nearly every enemy has a combo that can almost insta-gib you. But then i play Pyromancer. The game is absurdly easy now. Why? Because nothing gets within 20 feet of me. And if it does, its already at less then half health. Every challenge i ran into as a knight, i instantly blew through as a Pyromancer. Armored battle boar? No problem! I have fireballs for days!
Are you claiming that diverse play styles are a bad thing? There's tons of reasons to be a melee fighter - it's because the combat system feels so satisfying to use. Is magic OP? Well, probably, but it's definitely a far easier build, as players don't need to get nearly as close as they would with a melee character. But they do a nice job of evening out - I ran through Anor Londo with a phantom who was maining a sorceress. She took down Fatbody and Slim in about 5 hits with Soul Spear, granted, she was also stun-locked multiple times by Silver Knights, to which I had to get her out of it. All about picking your battles.

2: Constant weapon bouncing. Nearly all of the melee weapons have a habit of bouncing even if half a pixel grazes anything solid. I do like a game where hit boxes are well made, but theres a limit to it. I find myself bouncing off of every surface within 10 feet, while im being beat on by something immune to wrath of walls. ((Or poisoned by rats i cannot hit))
Haven't run into this a whole lot - but I definitely have run into it, especially with enemies in Anor Londo who wield Halberds.

3: Ledges. Everywhere. Nearly all of the deaths i befell were because of ledges. Anything stronger then a rough breeze and your character either recoils like an electric car hit him, or sends him flying. I take no damage from either of these, yet im dying. Why? Because every ledge and its grandmother want me to die. This was a massive pain in the Taurus demon fight where every swing he took either sent me flying, or was impossible to dodge because i chose a class other then Pyromancer.
You died because of the recoil. This leads to one problem: don't engage enemies where you are most likely going to be screwed. Pick your battles. I've never had an issue with ledges outside of the Silver Knights who shoot Xbox Huge lances at you, and even they can be easily killed by simply taking caution. You get hit because you get hit - it's no voodoo magic, it's the nature of the beast.


4: Random Death. Beings you cant kill, and you accidentally drew agro because you bent a piece of their beloved grass. They come rushing at you, and well, you die. Running is a decent option except they chase you far beyond what i would call an area boundary, and will 2 hit kill you unless you block every attack they throw at you.
There's a popular MMO tactic I use called "Pulling." Take a bow, an arrow, shoot an enemy from a distance, pull him into you, and finish him off.

Also: "Beings you can't kill" implies that they are physically impossible to kill, much like the first Dragon God fight in Demon's Souls. To my knowledge so far, aside from one fight in particular that happens way later, there are no "supposed to lose" fights (even though you can cheat it by using your Ring of Sacrifice, but I digress). Every enemy can be killed - this is coming from somebody who offed the Stray Demon with a longsword at Soul Level 17.

In summation, Dark Souls is not unfair. It's not even hard, it just doesn't hold your hand like 98% of all of the other games in this industry. I've died a minimal number of times because I consider my surroundings, my equipment, and above all else, my enemy.

Go into it, take it slow, and be careful. You'll have a much more gratifying time.

(P.S, and if you were to mention the Fog Ring, I would be supporting you 110%. Fuck that thing straight to hell. What were you thinking, From?)
 

3LANCER

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Burst6 said:
3LANCER said:
I haven't yet got my copy of the game but from what i've heard DS is just hard hack'n'slash with no backstory, not many RPG elements, with simple attacks (saw some gameplay where the character can only swing sword left or right) but always overpowered enemies. I'm not sure what people see in that game, if it's just "Super Meat boy hard" then it sounds ok and almost fun, but if it's constant insta-deaths without any visible clues of countering monsters then screw that.
Nah its not that. Monsters do a lot of damage and can kill you pretty quickly, but you can do the same to them.

You have about 6 different ways of attacking an enemy. Light attack, strong attack, jump attack, run attack, dodge attack, and the kick attack (depending on the weapon you're using, this can be replaced with a retreating attack where you dodge back).

You can also wield every weapon (except fist weapons) in 1 or two hands, so you get more attack options. The attacks are usually simple (there are weapons that have powerful special attacks), but they get the job done.

And there IS a story. It's just out of the way and needs to be pieced together from item descriptions and different NPC's. You can avoid it entirely if you want.
Thanks for clearing that up, I decided not to buy this game (maybe borrow it or download it for xbox in a couple of months). Really doesn't sound like my cup of tea.
 

Drkstrm

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kouriichi said:
1: No reason to be melee. Ive played 3 different classes, and so far, ive noticed a trend. I pick Knight, and the game is.... Difficult. Your weapon feels like it does nothing to anything but basic undead, theres no real point to armor when your shield blocks 100% physical damage and you can dodge everything else, and nearly every enemy has a combo that can almost insta-gib you. But then i play Pyromancer. The game is absurdly easy now. Why? Because nothing gets within 20 feet of me. And if it does, its already at less then half health. Every challenge i ran into as a knight, i instantly blew through as a Pyromancer. Armored battle boar? No problem! I have fireballs for days!

No reason you say? Well, allow me to enlighten you. Considering that you seem to have only played the beginning of the game, you wouldn't know this, but there is a massive list of reasons to be melee. First, foremost, and the only one that matters is the fact that it's the easiest way to play. Sure, the beginning may be a little tough. Then you level up. Both yourself and your equipment. As soon as you get to Quelaag (Likely to be the fifth or sixth boss you fight) melee becomes Lord of Battle Methods. Fighting Seath the Scaleless in a ranged battle? Good luck. You'll need some heavy stuff to beat him. The only boss that really gives trouble to melee is the Moonlight Butterfly, but that just requires a little patience and maybe a friendly phantom or two.

2: Constant weapon bouncing. Nearly all of the melee weapons have a habit of bouncing even if half a pixel grazes anything solid. I do like a game where hit boxes are well made, but theres a limit to it. I find myself bouncing off of every surface within 10 feet, while im being beat on by something immune to wrath of walls. ((Or poisoned by rats i cannot hit))

So... Tried luring? Tried using something else? Seriously, walls aren't a hard thing to not hit. THey don't pop up in front of you. Just play right.

3: Ledges. Everywhere. Nearly all of the deaths i befell were because of ledges. Anything stronger then a rough breeze and your character either recoils like an electric car hit him, or sends him flying. I take no damage from either of these, yet im dying. Why? Because every ledge and its grandmother want me to die. This was a massive pain in the Taurus demon fight where every swing he took either sent me flying, or was impossible to dodge because i chose a class other then Pyromancer.

Wait, you're using Taurus Demon as an example? Wow. That guy's piss easy. Smash his crotch 'til he dies and make sure not to stand with your back to a ledge. Not that ledges really matter if your planting your face in his crotch. He barely hits you, and even when he does, the shield'll take the full force of the attack.

4: Random Death. Beings you cant kill, and you accidentally drew agro because you bent a piece of their beloved grass. They come rushing at you, and well, you die. Running is a decent option except they chase you far beyond what i would call an area boundary, and will 2 hit kill you unless you block every attack they throw at you.

How about you try, erm, learning? Getting better? Seriously, the only thing that's tough at the beginning of the game is the Dragon. I've never bothered killing it because there's no reason to. Apart from that, every enemy in the game can be beaten easily if you're properly prepared. Those skeletons at Firelink Shrine? Sure they're tough at the beginning but they're easy to read. The Crystal Golems? They'll hit hard, but they're ridiculously slow. The Hydras? Melee them. The rest is obvious. There's nothing you can't kill, even at Soul Level 1. That's why people have completed the game at Soul Level 1.
Oh, and:

List of challenges im proud of.

Completing all G-rank monster hunter quests.
Completing the Diamond Heist in "Payday: The Heist" on the hardest difficulty, never getting taken into custody, without killing any hostages.
Quadra-Kill as Malzahar on LoL using only 2 visions and my silence.
Winning a 1v3 Spleef match on my server for Minecraft.

Those are challenges. Dark Souls doesnt give challenges, it gives you a shovel, and tells you to dig 350+ graves for your massively accumulating pile of corpses.
I have patients. I have lots of it. Its the reason i havent returned this game and demanded a full refund on it. ((I know i wouldnt get it, but its the thought that counts))
I know what a challenge is. This isnt a challenge, its a masochist's wet dream. And i dont have the time, nor conviction to use the nubs i once called hands to break away at the steel casket im buried myself in. xD
You don't know what challenge is. Your idea of challenge seems to be doing what you have to and doing it well. You want to show you're good with challenges? Fight a Fatalis without any armour. Maybe do it with the Giant Ham. Or, if you're feeling particularly devilish, try fighting the Alatreon with an Iron Dagger. If you want a game that is challenging, keep playing Dark Souls. You want to have challenges? Set them yourself. Doing stuff that's in a game isn't completing a challenge, that's completing a task. Fable is the only game I have that rewards you for challenging yourself. Never before seen a game that gives you more stuff for playing it naked.
 

Ghostkai

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Not that much to add. Others have said what needed to be said. And I know you don't want to hear it OP.

It comes down to you.

Your own skills and observations. It's a game where you are meant to LEARN from your mistakes.

Weapon bouncing? Why not be more adaptable. Your big weapon clashing with walls and screwing you over? Why not try a different attack type. Or better yet, change weapon.

Falling off ledges? I've died maybe 1-2 times from that. It was stupid and my own fault (been playing 20+ hours). Let's be honest, it was your fault too.

Unkillable enemies? Sorry, no. There is ONE enemy in the game that insta-kills you in a scripted event (and it's quite late in the game). Everything else, EVERYTHING, is killable with nothing but your fists and at SL1. Someone already posted the video of someone killing the Asylum Demon with fists so i won't post again. If a boss killed you, it's because you weren't good enough or were unprepared. Use the death to learn. Learn the boss, learn the fight, learn the attack patterns. I can assure you, there's a pattern to every boss.

And don't complain about any of the "classes", past the first 10 or so levels, it won't make a blind bit of difference what class you started with. You can make a character as good as you want and have it play how you want. You could turn your knight into a heavy spellcaster, or your pyro into a backstabbing dex based character.

Speaking as someone who never touched Demon's Souls, I adore Dark Souls. It's challenge is incredibly refreshing, I think back to when I started playing, and how utterly shit I was at the game. Now I think about now, and how much of a badass I feel tearing through enemies like butter.

(Oh, and the falling attack is your friend... It's really good for a bunch of bosses.)
 

sheah1

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Okay, new rule: If someone says they don't Like Dark or Demon's Souls, they're not allowed to say "let me tell you, I've played such and such a game all the way through", because as soon as you do, you sound like a whiney ***** to me.
Sorry. Needed to be said.
 

Ghostkai

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Capitano Segnaposto said:
Overall, when you finally kill that giant Vagina Monster or the Scaleless Dragon or those Belfry Gargoyles single-handedly; it is one of the greatest feelings I have felt in a long while whilst playing a game.
And that, fellow Escapists, is the appeal of this great game. Well said.
 

ChaoticKraus

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I've only logged 12 hours so far and are running around in the Undead Parish but i'll give my 2 cents. Oh and i play DEX-oriented Wanderer.

I feel like that the truth lies somewhere between the OP's and the other posters viewpoint. Most of the time the game is hard but manageable. If you get shot in the back while fighting a boss it's your fault because you didn't check the surroundings properly. If a enemy is with his friends you lure them apart or make them engage you in think passages, if you are fighting on a ledge or in a corridor you drag them away from there.

But sometimes the game pulls pure dickmoves, hides enemies behind corners, combos that are impossible to get out of etc. If i die to this kind of shit i punch the table, swear and turn off the game. But i usually come back the next day because every sucess is sweet in this game.

My main gripe is with how they put incredibly powerful guys in the beginning of the newbie zone. The only way i'm able to kill the black knights is by using the drake sword, but that makes me feel bad because it feels like i'm cheating myself of a challenge. And don't get me started on the knight guy in the tower with the banana hammer, that guy is just ridiculous.

Another gripe is how hard it is to get started in the game, i acutally had to check a wiki just to understand what all stats did and how to perform certain vital actions. They really should have done a better job of introducing everything.


Also, where the fuck do i find weapons in this game? The only good ones i found are the drake sword and the black knight greatsword. But the drake sword feels cheap and i dont have the strength for the greatsword. Ideally i would want to find a curved sword because i really love the moveset. (No i won't kill the merchant for a katana).
 

DBLT4P

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I think alot of the contention on this topic comes from the very fine line that dark souls strattles in terms of difficulty, there is ALOT of stuff that is going to kill you that chuck norris's beard couldn't see coming, and you are supposed to die, and then learn to avoid it next time or just mercilessly beat every chest you find to death until you are sure its not going to eat you (a certain fortess comes to mind here, and might I add there were no chests in demons souls you just looted corpses). In fact you are exected to die so often that the game worked it into the story, as did its predecessor.

This doesn't make the game "good" or "bad" it is just a matter of whether or not it is the type of game you want to play. I find it rewarding, what you think is none of my buisness. The whole argument comes from people wanting to apply generalized absolutes to things like good or bad or "best game evar!" And then getting offened when people hold an opposing opinion. People still play WoW and MMO's in general even though they are almost required to involve alot of grinding or grind like activities by the mmo format.

Bottom line: if its not your cup o' tea, don't drink it, but dont' criticize others for drinking or not drinking it. Its none of your damn buisness what people drink with breakfast.
 

Ickorus

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kouriichi said:
Heres the thing about it though. I never notice anything elses weapons bounce of walls...
Physics? xD yeah. Totally. And i know everything is killable. You can lock on and see their health. That doesnt mean you CAN kill them. The dragon on the bridge fries you before you get within half a mile.
You can kill the dragon, just not right away.

kouriichi said:
But heres the thing, did you enjoy died 350+ times?
Yep, well, more specifically, I enjoyed killing the things that killed me.

kouriichi said:
Where in there did you find time to have fun? In between the cheap deaths because you character recoiled over a ledge
Not a cheap death, don't stand right on the edge when fighting.

kouriichi said:
, your shield was 1 pixel off for blocking,
Raise your shield sooner, if you have the choice between an extra hit and the possibility of being hit back or hitting once less and being certain to take minimal damage always choose the latter; i've died many times because I tried rushing it when the enemy was very low on health and that's entirely my own problem.

kouriichi said:
or you just didnt know you were about to die to something big and ugly. Yes, the games title is "Prepare to die". But that doesnt make it any better of a game.
Be vigilant, i've only died a few times because i've not seen it coming but every time it's because I wasn't paying full attention.

That is including the dragon, the first hit didn't kill me and when I got up I hid for a moment looked around and then stupidly charged the dragon because I didn't spot the staircase. My fault.

kouriichi said:
CoD is an "Innovative FPS with team dynamics", but how often is there any innovation, or actual teamwork involved? A game being hard doesnt make it good. A good game uses its difficulty to teach a player to become better, not hammer them until they get lucky at a part their stuck at, and then kill them 10 seconds later because their out of pots! xD
You shouldn't rely on getting lucky, just formulate a better plan each time you die.
 

Jodah

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Rem45 said:
No reason to be melee? How far are you into the game? Really, how far? I'd love to see you take on the Giant Lava Spider without swinging a stick or 2.

Also, you being knocked off edges is because you have no poise. Go get the Wolf Ring and put on some armor so an attack doesn't knock you. Also, I rarely die from ledges. No idea what you're doing wrong.

Armor is useful, yes a shield will block 100% melee but it will not do the same for magic and fire. So armor helps and armor boosts your poise.

If your knight wasn't doing enough damage get a bigger sword. The BKS or Claymore are accessible early on.

If you don't like hallways equip a rapier...

A masochists wet dream? I've defeated most bosses on my first go. Stand and block for a while and figure out the openings and then go for it.

HOW DID YOU FALL OFF THE EDGE AGAINST THE TAURUS DEMON!!!! LOL...Dude, wow. Just wow. There's one gap that any sane person would do well to avoid.

This game is a proper challenge. Enemies do damage but everything (Except for this one boss: spoiler) is beatable. I really don't get how you can't see that. I'm sorry but you really must suck at the game. Half the things you complain about are fixed with 3 seconds of thought.

Ledges are not that bad! Dying doesn't get easier, it gets harder because if you play properly you learn. You learn not to rush into a room, to pull enemies out of their groups with a bow. For example I killed the Lava Spider and then used the same tactic to finish off Sif the Wolf in one go because I realised both of them could be killed from underneath.

You complain about the game just wanting to torture but I started a second character and was able to get through a large chunk of the game in 2 hours because it wasn't a challenge anymore.

EDIT: I'm not raging, I'm just annoyed that you're putting a game down when you just seem to give up when things don't go your way, for example.

Everything is impossible to dodge unless you're a pyromancer? You do realise dodge is dependent on the weight of your armor and the amount of END you have, yeah? There is no inventory limit and if I'm versing a boss I know armor will be useless against I put on a lighter option to increase my overall speed. So, ANY class can increase dodge speed.

Also, you go on about pyromancers when pyromancers aren't anything special. As soon as you find the teacher ANYONE can be a pyromancer. Your knight for instance, but I guess you didn't get far enough to realise and you didn't realise that INT doesn't increase fire damage.
I'm not the OP but I beat the "lava spider" with only spells, didn't melee her once. In fact, I found it more difficult when I did try to melee her the first time.
 

Ickorus

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ChaoticKraus said:
Also, where the fuck do i find weapons in this game? The only good ones i found are the drake sword and the black knight greatsword. But the drake sword feels cheap and i dont have the strength for the greatsword. Ideally i would want to find a curved sword because i really love the moveset. (No i won't kill the merchant for a katana).
I believe The Catacombs have both Falchions and Scimitars and if you're after a good curved greatsword then you'll want to go to blighttown and find 'Server' on a corpse in the swamps at the bottom.
 

Wolfram23

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My only real problem with it is Ceaseless Discharge. That was not a fair boss fight. Ugh. Still, managed to do it after... 20? 30? tries.
 

AlternatePFG

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Wolfram01 said:
My only real problem with it is Ceaseless Discharge. That was not a fair boss fight. Ugh. Still, managed to do it after... 20? 30? tries.
He's actually a gimmick fight. There's an area where you can safely hit him, you just have to occasionally dodge to get him to smash his tentacle down to where you can hit it.