Having difficulty understanding transgendered people? I'll try to help.

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

[asshole]That's funny, I always thought transgendered people had trouble understanding themselves! (rimshot) [/asshole]

Sorry, couldn't resist. I was probably ninja'd on that but I'm not reading nine pages to find out.

I get the identity issues thing. Good luck getting others to understand. The world is a place of vast ignorance........

Nope, you got it first, surprised somebody didn't pull it earlier either. That was equal parts face palm and laugh.

I've had plenty of success thus far except for one person who was blatantly not going to get it, and trying to derail the thread into an insult war.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It can be a very dangerous thing IMO, to attribute to ignorance, what is really raw selfishness and self-interest.

Oh certainly, there's an awful lot of willful ignorance going around.

It was also pointed out to me that the people claiming not to know anything about trans issues generally have somehow found out a bunch of slurs and harmful stereotypes about trans people.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

It can be a very dangerous thing IMO, to attribute to ignorance, what is really raw selfishness and self-interest.

Oh certainly, there's an awful lot of willful ignorance going around.

It was also pointed out to me that the people claiming not to know anything about trans issues generally have somehow found out a bunch of slurs and harmful stereotypes about trans people.

The slurs and harmful stereotypes usually exist outside of the actuality of the community they address, this is especially true when it comes to transgender people.

The willful ignorance comes as part of a willingness and desire to discriminate and having an argument, no matter how flawed, to back it up.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

The slurs and harmful stereotypes usually exist outside of the actuality of the community they address, this is especially true when it comes to transgender people.

The willful ignorance comes as part of a willingness and desire to discriminate and having an argument, no matter how flawed, to back it up.

Yar ... difference between free speech, and freeze peach. Primary problem of the whole libertarian angle. People who would seek to oppress others by being protected under libertarian virtues. That being said, you have the flipside were nobody can say anything.

But what I always find odd is the argument of; that nobody can be critical because the <insert random gripe about 'PC' stuff here>... which more often than not gives a nice skip to my heart. Mainly because it means that there are people saying; "Well, don't also have an equal and valid right to their self expression? Why does yours trump theirs?"

It's like ... yeah, funnily enough people have a right to own their expression and defend it. Principles of liberty ... you have those that allow people to own their expression and promote it, and you have people who wish to tear down other's expression and hide behind the shield of free speech. Turning around and being critical of the latter is not some great affront to liberty, it's the promotion of liberty.

I would like to think people are starting to understand that there is a difference between propping up the shield of free expression, and merely hiding behind it. Some groups of people do, and this is growing that more and more people are allowed their self-expression and it should be promoted, and there's nothing wrong with simply acknowledging another person's self-expression. If someone tells me they're a Christian ... I have no problem with seeing them as a Christian. If someone tells me they're a Christian, and therefore my (as in 'another') self-identity is invalid ... then why exactly do I have to accept that? Surely I am allowed equal negation of another if I so face it?

People having a problem about me is still them having the problem. It does not correlate to the validity of self for those confronted with another's problems. In the end, the question should always be; "What promotes the greatest liberty for all involved?"

But I don't expect some grand enlightenment to occur anytime soon.

I'd be content for political equality first, from there you can start to build equality in the social dynamic. It's about shifting sands, a lot of times. Shifting mountains can only occur when enough weight has been co-ordinated. And trans people tend to be the most patient of people. Patience is a false virtue however, it should have reasonable limitations. There does come to a point where you have to put your foot down and say; 'No, this is who I am and I'll not compromise on my rights to self.'

Captcha: 'i'm (sic) only human"

Should I nod or be frightened that it's beginning to show an appeal to nature fallacy as justification?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Snip

Yar ... difference between free speech, and freeze peach. Primary problem of the whole libertarian angle. People who would seek to oppress others by being protected under libertarian virtues. That being said, you have the flipside were nobody can say anything.

But what I always find odd is the argument of; that nobody can be critical because the <insert random gripe about 'PC' stuff here>... which more often than not gives a nice skip to my heart. Mainly because it means that there are people saying; "Well, don't also have an equal and valid right to their self expression? Why does yours trump theirs?"

It's like ... yeah, funnily enough people have a right to own their expression and defend it. Principles of liberty ... you have those that allow people to own their expression and promote it, and you have people who wish to tear down other's expression and hide behind the shield of free speech. Turning around and being critical of the latter is not some great affront to liberty, it's the promotion of liberty.

I would like to think people are starting to understand that there is a difference between propping up the shield of free expression, and merely hiding behind it. Some groups of people do, and this is growing that more and more people are allowed their self-expression and it should be promoted, and there's nothing wrong with simply acknowledging another person's self-expression. If someone tells me they're a Christian ... I have no problem with seeing them as a Christian. If someone tells me they're a Christian, and therefore my (as in 'another') self-identity is invalid ... then why exactly do I have to accept that? Surely I am allowed equal negation of another if I so face it?

People having a problem about me is still them having the problem. It does not correlate to the validity of self for those confronted with another's problems. In the end, the question should always be; "What promotes the greatest liberty for all involved?"

But I don't expect some grand enlightenment to occur anytime soon.

I'd be content for political equality first, from there you can start to build equality in the social dynamic. It's about shifting sands, a lot of times. Shifting mountains can only occur when enough weight has been co-ordinated. And trans people tend to be the most patient of people. Patience is a false virtue however, it should have reasonable limitations. There does come to a point where you have to put your foot down and say; 'No, this is who I am and I'll not compromise on my rights to self.'

Captcha: 'i'm (sic) only human"

Should I nod or be frightened that it's beginning to show an appeal to nature fallacy as justification?

Of course that's the fact, bigots have been using the things like free speech, freedom of religion, and unequal comparisons to back up their flawed world views forever. They also use ignorance and rejection of fact to back up their views. One reason is because it's easier to reject someone, than change one's world view for something as inconvenient to them as the fact that minorities have problems, or gay and transgender people exist. Also due to a lack of understanding it's easier to fear and hate what you don't understand than become educated. This is the unfortunate truth of human nature, it's always easier to hate, fear, and reject, rather than learn, understand and accept. It becomes especially true if being different means asking anything of them, even if it's as simple as asking for the right gender pronouns.

Luckily when information starts getting around the bigoted individuals start finding them selves in a smaller and smaller minority as people learn more and leave them behind. That's why trans people becoming more visible in the past decade and a half, with the help of the Internet is a good thing. Even if that makes the really rabid haters even more vocal than before. Actually that helps too, because that hurts the their cause, because they're showing their true colors as raging crazies.

 

[Metailurus]

Of course that's the fact, bigots have been using the things like free speech, freedom of religion, and unequal comparisons to back up their flawed world views forever. They also use ignorance and rejection of fact to back up their views.

Why does your choice to be offended trump freedom of speech?

I actually do have some difficulty understanding transgender people, maybe you can help, after all this is what this thread is about, is it not? So right to the point;

I have a tough time considering transgender people to be something other than their original gender. The reality is that they were born a certain way, and while I can recognise that they feel incompatible with their body (which is fair enough btw, In a world where there are very few absolutes I can accept that someone may be uncomfortable with their body for any number of reasons, even if I can never understand that reason) ultimately even if they go have an operation they essentially still have most of the same plumbing and are never fully technically the opposite gender.

I haven't been able to word this next bit well, but hopefully it comes across clearly enough: Another thing that supports this conception is that you can generally get a sense, even without meeting someone physically, by how someone conducts themselves in discourse whether they are/were male or female with what I think is a reasonable degree of accuracy. Referencing male to female (as that seems to be the majority and the most transgender that I have run across), it seems to me that they mostly still come across as being male, and I think that this is something they understand they are doing too as sometimes they seem to try to address this by emphasising their gender far too hard.

Using an example: I previously (occasionally) played/play MechWarrior Online, and have been in a team for most of that time. At one point we had a transgender applicant who effectively was probably recently post op, and basically tried to frame everything in a cutesy/feminine way, which gave the impression that something was off, that they were attention seeking and trying the special snowflake routine.

When other females in the team happened to be playing they strongly tried to push typical female topics (like dieting, children or other garbage you would run across in typical workplace office chatter) in an effort to highlight their new gender. Bearing in mind that these females are gamers, it fell on deaf ears and felt extremely out of place. Couple that with not being willing to speak on teamspeak (We all knew about their situation, we didn't care. People were there to play a game, not discuss their gender) their clumsy social conduct made it very difficult for team members to accept this person (there were other reasons, but lets not pretend that gender wasn't part) and ultimately we did not take them.

Physically it is also extremely rare that a transgender person actually looks like the gender they have changed to. Male to female often look like drag queens, especially as they get older, and this can make people uncomfortable with them straight off the bat.

Basically, given that physically, (what I would consider to be a) full change is never truly possible as far as I know, and that my (admittedly limited) past experiences with transgender people highlight that there is a marked difference in social interaction by males and females, I privately consider transgender to be of their original gender, although publically I just try to avoid gender reference where possible when it is on shaky ground.

I would go so far as to say that it is arguably unfair that in the first world we have been browbeaten socially into having to tiptoe around it and referring to someone as being something we don't believe them to actually be. It feels extremely dishonest to have to pretend something that you do not believe simply in order to keep the peace in a conversation.

So I guess, feel free to provide commentary on my view of physical gender swap, and let me know if it is possible to get around the discomfort of transgender people typically "feeling off" somehow.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Of course that's the fact, bigots have been using the things like free speech, freedom of religion, and unequal comparisons to back up their flawed world views forever. They also use ignorance and rejection of fact to back up their views.

Why does your choice to be offended trump freedom of speech

It doesn't but your freedom of speech does also not trump my personal expression, or freedom to it.

I actually do have some difficulty understanding transgender people, maybe you can help, after all this is what this thread is about, is it not? So right to the point;

I have a tough time considering transgender people to be something other than their original gender. The reality is that they were born a certain way, and while I can recognise that they feel incompatible with their body (which is fair enough btw, In a world where there are very few absolutes I can accept that someone may be uncomfortable with their body for any number of reasons, even if I can never understand that reason) ultimately even if they go have an operation they essentially still have most of the same plumbing and are never fully technically the opposite gender.

I haven't been able to word this next bit well, but hopefully it comes across clearly enough: Another thing that supports this conception is that you can generally get a sense, even without meeting someone physically, by how someone conducts themselves in discourse whether they are/were male or female with what I think is a reasonable degree of accuracy. Referencing male to female (as that seems to be the majority and the most transgender that I have run across), it seems to me that sometimes they try to address they and emphasise their gender far too hard.

Using an example: I previously (occasionally) played/play MechWarrior Online, and have been in a team for most of that time. At one point we had a transgender applicant who effectively was probably recently post op, and basically tried to frame everything in a cutesy/feminine way, which gave the impression that something was off, that they were attention seeking and trying the special snowflake routine.

When other females in the team happened to be playing they strongly tried to push typical female topics (like dieting, children or other garbage you would run across in typical workplace office chatter) in an effort to highlight their new gender. Bearing in mind that these females are gamers, it fell on deaf ears and felt extremely out of place. Couple that with not being willing to speak on teamspeak (We all knew about their situation, we didn't care. People were there to play a game, not discuss their gender) their clumsy social conduct made it very difficult for team members to accept this person (there were other reasons, but lets not pretend that gender wasn't part) and ultimately we did not take them.

Physically it is also extremely rare that a transgender person actually looks like the gender they have changed to. Male to female often look like drag queens, especially as they get older, and this can make people uncomfortable with them straight off the bat.

Basically, given that physically, (what I would consider to be a) full change is never truly possible as far as I know, and that my (admittedly limited) past experiences with transgender people highlight that there is a marked difference in social interaction by males and females, I privately consider transgender to be of their original gender, although publically I just try to avoid gender reference where possible when it is on shaky ground.

I would go so far as to say that it is arguably unfair that in the first world we have been browbeaten socially into having to tiptoe around it and referring to someone as being something we don't believe them to actually be.

So I guess, feel free to provide commentary on my view of physical gender swap, and let me know if it is possible to get around the discomfort of transgender people typically "feeling off" somehow.

What you're speaking of is a reference to a trans person who more likely than not was either very insecure with passing, or very early in their transition. At least with the example you gave. It can be hard to gauge which, generally the less a trans person passes, the more insecure they are with their gender presentation, and that can hang on a while even when/if they pass flawlessly.

In a social situation it can vary widely person to person with trans people, a big contributing factor is how long they were in the closet before transition. Another big factor is how much they idealize female stereotypes, the more so, the more they'll tend to adhere to it, plus there is also what era of femininity they idealize. This can lead to massive overcompensation on the part of a trans person, generally it's less noticeable with transmen, because if they over compensate they're often seen as a macho or insecure but otherwise regular dude. Though this actually not a fair examination of all trans people, especially when we start earlier in life with transition.

Physically it can be fairly obvious, or not depending on how overtly masculine the person was to startwith and how much work they've had done. A lot of trans people don't have the resources for exhaustive work so may not physically pass very well, this is argued to be a medical problem too, and that medical insurance should cover it. That's neither here nor there, a lot of trans people when fully transitioned will have put in the work, again will pass better if they started earlier. I've never had a problem passing as female my self, being androgynous at the best, and couldn't pass as male in my young life.

To be fair most trans people you'd meet anymore, especially younger ones, you'd never peg for trans. They don't fall into the social fauxpas that some do, they don't have an overt bias towards stereotypes, so they take their cues for what's appropriate for the group dynamic they're in. Physically you'll have a hard time spotting a trans person who took the time, effort, and expense to perfect their appearance, this is one thing starting on HRT early helps dramatically with.

But in summation generally you'll not be able to tell a trans person is trans, most of my trans friends, both transmen and transwomen for example pass easily. Most of them also had the chance to start transitioning around young adulthood, and already new the social gender rules of the gender they transitioned to. Some of them had to have extensive work done to pass, some only minor, some took none at all. But between me and the ones who pass if you met us in person, you'd probably never know unless told that we were trans. Some of my friends pass less, but you'd probably not peg them for trans either, though you might get the impression if you looked really hard. Also there are some biological women with hormonal imbalances and other issues that make them look far more masculine than most other women, and you'd probably peg them as trans because of the bias you show. So face value is often not a good example and behavior can be misleading, because many natural males and females adhere to the gender stereotypes pretty strictly anyways.

As for your last part point. While there are no ways currently to preform a full biological sex change(and there may never be), it's still considered most commonly polite to refer to a trans person as the gender they present as. If you mess up on gender pronouns, or something, a simple apology and an attempt to use the preferred pronouns is really all it takes to make ammends. I know it can be hard, some my cisgender friends often have trouble fully wrapping their head around it and accidentally out me by misgendering me often enough. Hell my gay and very few limited friends have the worst trouble with it. As to it being unfair to respect our wishes and treat us gently? Remember that transgender people all go through really ridiculous amounts of being ostracized, berated, bullied, emotionally abused, and often enough physically abused. This isn't the same as most people and even other ostracized groups get, like say how nerds and geeks were treated in the past. For trans people we get denied on a fundamental level respect for who we are, and the abuses we suffer are enough to cause a shockingly high suicide rate in the group, to be even more shockingly high. So is it really all that unfair to ask to be treated the way identify, rather than the way we've been forced? Being denied your identity is really one of the biggest driving causes in the trans community for suicide, while you don't have to take responsibility for it, because honestly you're not really at fault, making it easier on us helps lessen this.

Now on a personal level what might help, is if you try to consider in your own mind that transwomen are women and that transmen are men. Think of it like this if it helps: Imagine that your brain and everything that makes you, you as a person was suddenly put into a the opposite sex's body. Now then this would essentially make you trans. So you have two options, you can either deny the person you've always known you are and try to function as the opposite sex, but this is nearly impossible and on a mental health level extremely damaging. Your other option is to transition as much as possible into being the opposite sex, so your body matches your mind. Which would you choose? A bit of putting yourself into our shoes. We're not pretending, we're not trying to deceive, we're trying to be who we are on a deep personal identity level. So having support from people, even those who don't necessarily agree with our gender dysphoria, or who are uncomfortable with us, really helps make our lives a lot easier. Take in to consideration that being transgender is a very difficult life to have to start with.

I hope that helps you out.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

That's a very complete answer, one of the best I think I've gotten without dragging it out of someone online. I don't know how long it would take you, but yeah I think what you describe is probably the way to go. May I ask what you do for a living, or study? You present remarkably cogent and complete arguments...

I used to work for the Department of Education & Training for a short while. But yeah, I have one diploma, two degrees, working on a masters, and working towards a second diploma. All from top 50 QS world ranked universities.

Not bad for someone with a S&B standardised 84 IQ score. Fuck people in Mensa.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Ah yes... the IQ test... nothing wrong with that cherry. /s

Well, yeah. IQ tests ... The old Stanford-Binet tests were pretty lousy at determining true IQ. And I've always been a believer of multiple intelligences. I was big into Gardner before it was cool .... #HipsterStudent

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Hehe... I just have an image of someone poring over tests, a partially finished Rey-Osterrieth complex figure in the background... while they make their own artisinal bacon.

I suck at stuff like that. I can multitask like a mofo, but spatial awareness, replicating scales, or difficult geometric shapes I suck at. I actually somewhat conquered the spatial awareness thing by getting BIG in to sport as a kid. Sport is therapeutic. I mean ... I kind of think it's a joke people getting millions of dollars for it, but it actually helped me heaps.

I tried to do a lot of visual arts as a kid. Dad was a teacher and he noticed I was pretty slow and had difficult replicating visual objects from memory. So he started me off with three point perspective drawing? In some ways kind of like R-O because it's a bit like Dutch still life paintings. You paint what you see, as you see it, as perfectly as you can.

It's ... just, well ... 'bombed' in a word. So I wouldn't even get past the Copy stage very well ... but in a lot of ways I conquered the short-term, long-term memory store stuff that could somewhat be examined in an R-O test by using the Link Method memory retrieval system. By picturing words, and meaning, as to physical locations of familiarity, so that I increased the neuron connections to individual ideas, concepts, meanings.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Same here actually, with sports as well, and then later games helped to refine that. The trick is learning to find your "zone", accept that you're not going to muscle through the spatial stuff, and develop workarounds. I think we've read the same books on memory too... unless I miss my guess.

Pretty much. Well the sport thathelped me was tennis actually. Technically good, but no physical talent. But it helped with the whole force over distance, accuracy and perspective type of stuff. If you're close to the net, knowing which balls you need to chase and which ones which will fall 'out'. It did help, and because you need to make snap decisions it helps really drive home some of the stuff I was naturally deficient in due to Klinefelter's.

But you're right ... it requires a multi-disciplinary approach. THe thing is that you don't need to be super-smart to score the best grades. Simply being organised puts you about 8 points ahead on the bell curve compared to most students.

As for the memory stuff, it's been about .... 7 years since I studied cognition indepthly? I'm doing applied psychology at the moment. As I've been more interested in the therapeutical aspects rather than research and mechanics of the brain.

 

[Kwak]

Can you imagine being content and not having the urge to change your outer sex, or is their there (damn spelling) something inherent in that sex that you are repulsed by and would be no matter what?
Are the struggles of being trans something you feel have made you stronger compared to if you hadn't had to deal with it?
If there was a way to make it so you could be happy with the outer sex of the body you were born in, would you take it?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Can you imagine being content and not having the urge to change your outer sex, or is their something inherent in that sex that you are repulsed by and would be no matter what?

I've transitioned, so yes. Dissatisfaction with one's physiology can vary greatly from one trans person to another. For me personally it's been about being the person I want to be more than being satisfied with the package of equipment of either sex. That said if they came up with a way to make me biologically female, I would be seriously tempted to go for it, especially if I decided that I want kids.

Are the struggles of being trans something you feel have made you stronger compared to if you hadn't had to deal with it?

I think they have, but having said that, the struggles have damaged me to an extent too and I've had a very easy time of it.

If there was a way to make it so you could be happy with the outer sex of the body you were born in, would you take it?

No. It'd change who I am on a fundamental level, there is something deeply disturbing about that. It'd be like if a man or woman who was satisfied with their birth sex, changing sex all of a sudden and having absolutely no problem with it, then functioning as if they were always that way. That's kind of scary on a personality changing level.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I hate to bump and I hate to double post, so I really hate to do both at the same time but there is a good reason for this one. I don't think it would be appropriate to edit it in to my last post either, but someone asked me a pretty good question, which has been coming up a lot in real life too. I don't remember if we covered this in-depth yet, but seeing how people on the forums have been speaking on this subject else where, it couldn't hurt to cover it in detail here and now.

What happens when a friend or family member comes out, also dealing with trans people in a respectful manner: Something very important all too many people are ignorant on, or just plain ignoring.

My friend or a family member came out. Should I refer to them to as the opposite gender now?:

The short answer is yes. I hear the argument against doing this a lot, but none of them hold water, not a single one. The line "I'm not going to play along with someone's game of pretend," is one I hear a lot, as is; "they're just putting on a mask." Well guess what, you're not only wrong, you're intentionally being cruel to someone who has more than their fair share of trouble being themselves. Being trans means spending a lot of time hiding your true self, it means we have to pretend to be something we're not for a large portion of our lives, it means we have to pretend to make other people happy. You want know what is the best feeling in the world for a trans person? It's being accepted for who we are, being treated like the person we feel we are in the inside, it's especially good the first someone accepts us for who we are, it's an unimaginably good and heart warming feeling when it happens.

Another argument I see a lot is that using someone's preferred gender pronouns is some how impinging on your freedom of speech, well guess what, it's not. You have the freedom to disagree and personally not see your trans friend, or family member as how they present and identify. But using free speech as an argument for trying to invalidate someone else's self expression and self determination is a violation of their freedoms and it makes you a hypocrite. Besides this is not an argument of legality, this is not a legal restriction on you, you're not being censored against the constitution. What is happening here is you're being asked to be nice to someone and respect their identity and wishes, not respecting those wishes is being a jerk, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Those arguments are the weakest, most petty and childish excuses you can put up to not respect a transgender persons wishes and identity, or in other words there is no excuse for it. I understand that it might be hard for you to do this, it might even be against your personal beliefs, but try and think about how much harder it is for us on a daily basis just to be ourselves. Even on the biological and phenotype argument, doing these sort of things isn't right, it's damaging to the other person and you're being obstinate in a way that hurts some one else. The last argument is not coddling other people, or someone's being too sensitive. Well you know what? If I did something similar to you it'd hurt you too, it's a double standard to ignore it with a trans person. Besides when someone is asking you to do something that costs you literally nothing to make someone else happy, there is no reason not to do it.

Now that all applies to people who flatly refuse to acknowledge our struggles, if you just don't know weather or not it's right to refer to your friend or family member as the gender they're transitioning to, that's understandable. Again if a friend/family member comes out to you and is a transwoman, refer to them as if they were a female, or if they come out as a transman, refer to them as a male. It'll make them really happy to have the support.

What if I screw up their gender pronouns, even though I am trying really hard not to?:

This is a problem and it can be a little disheartening for us, but if it's an honest mistake, it's also really easy for us to forgive. Simply put admitting the screw up and apologizing is usually all it takes to rectify the issue. I understand that it can be difficult, especially if you're used to someone as their birth sex, it's in all honestly quite a change to process, and takes time to get used to, if you ever do. Still if you're working with us and being patient, then we'll do the same for you.

The only time this is ever a real serious problem is when you misgender a trans person is when you do it in front of someone who doesn't know that your friend/family member is trans. That's because this is outing the trans person and it's never okay to out someone is trans, or gay against their will. This is especially true for trans people, because it is dangerous to be outed, as a really disturbingly large number of people become violent when when presented with a trans person. Though it's more likely that they just become hostile and mean about the whole thing. To be honest, even if things get ugly, it can and usually will be forgiven, we know you're not trying to out us and do appreciate the effort to use the correct words for us.

My friend/family member changed their name, the only problem is that another friend/family member to us both has the same name... What now? Do I use their old name?:

Yes, this is confusing, not to mention it's really frustrating on all sides; for you, any other friends, the trans person in question, and the person who has the same name. The easiest solutions are to do one of a few things: agree on a nickname that's not offensive, agree on a shortened version on one, or the other person's names(usually the trans persons), or if possible the easiest is to do is to add their last, or middle initial after the name. In all of the latter cases since the trans person is the one who changed their name, it'll usually be us who gets the last initial, shortened name, or nick name, which is usually fine. The one thing you don't want to do at any costs is go back to our given name. Seriously most trans people hate our given names, it's a reminder of the hardships we faced while in the closet, and it's the same as misgendering, as it can also out us. Not only that, but it's also confusing as hell for everyone involved and can lead to misgendering because it kind of reinforces the correctness of the past, while invalidating the present and future, which is a backwards step. Also asking for a entirely new name change isn't good either, because generally the names we pick are ones we feel an attachment to. So nicknames, shortened names, or a initial tacked to the end of the name is the easiest, along with being basically inoffensive and not personally damaging.

Anyways I hope that all really does help, and I hope it helps get certain people off their bad habits.

 

[TranshumanistG]

In an anime I'm currently watching, the main character is a teenager who had early on been established as male, most noticeably because he and his friends referred to him as male. In a recent episode one of the friends revealed to the other, that MC has actually got a female body. That caught me off guard, partially because I had never seen a trans-man being depicted in japanese media.

In the following episode however, it was revealed that the MC was born with in a boy's body, but, when he was adolescent, some kind of quasi-magical accident happened involving him and two girls, which caused them to exchange bodies, leaving him in one of the girl's body and no idea where his original body could be and how to return to it, causing him to spend the time growing up in her body.

So, my question is, if a person was born with a sex in alignment with their self-determined gender, but something happened to change their biological sex against their will(be it a magical spell, a sci-fi technology, or a forced operation), does that make said person transgender? If not, what then? Would them being in someone else's body or their original one having been altered play an important role in this matter?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

In an anime I'm currently watching, the main character is a teenager who had early on been established as male, most noticeably because he and his friends referred to him as male. In a recent episode one of the friends revealed to the other, that MC has actually got a female body. That caught me off guard, partially because I had never seen a trans-man being depicted in japanese media.

In the following episode however, it was revealed that the MC was born with in a boy's body, but, when he was adolescent, some kind of quasi-magical accident happened involving him and two girls, which caused them to exchange bodies, leaving him in one of the girl's body and no idea where his original body could be and how to return to it, causing him to spend the time growing up in her body.

So, my question is, if a person was born with a sex in alignment with their self-determined gender, but something happened to change their biological sex against their will(be it a magical spell, a sci-fi technology, or a forced operation), does that make said person transgender? If not, what then? Would them being in someone else's body or their original one having been altered play an important role in this matter?

I think such a thing would classify as transgenderism, because the act of forcing someone to transition would be both traumatic and cause gender dysphoria. In the case of magical, or science fiction methods of doing it, but assuming it were painless, that would definitely make someone gender dysphoic, thus trans. Though that's fiction so not really something applicable to real life.

Having said that, forced transition through medication and surgery will definitely cause gender dysphoria, or at least body dysphoria. Aside from that doing such a thing to somebody is probably the worst imaginable thing I can think of, it's totally unforgivable. It's torture and mutilation, it'd damage a person in ways that we can scarcely imagine. The mere thought of doing something so terrible to someone, destroying them like that, fills me with revulsion.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Sadly you don't really need to imagine... the history of GRS is not a happy history of trans people seeking relief, but doctors and parents exerting control over infants and children. I'm sure you know that, but... it's still worth mentioning. A lot of the very "reasonable people" start to get back to some very scary, tried and failed bottom lines when pressed.

Not counting Trans denying parents, who are still sadly more the rule today, rather than the exception and how often they deny any treatment to their trans children is especially sad. That is actually one of the things that drives suicide in trans people, especially in trans adolescents and teens, especially when parents use "hetero camps" on their kids. Then you have SRS by it self used on children and infants to "correct" intersexed children, which often enough results in worse gender dysphoria, and more need for surgery later in life. The only luck is that anymore the idea of using corrective surgery for intersexed people is suggested to wait until later in life, rather than doing it at the earliest possible time.

 

[Mikeybb]

Just wanted to say thanks for starting this thread and thanks to the participants.

Can't say I've had many questions to ask, but those that occurred have already been answered.
More than that though, I've seen a lot of things answered and discussed that I wouldn't have even thought to ask in the first place.

It's been interesting, engaging and enlightening.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

"Dr. McHugh also pointed out studies from Vanderbilt University and London?s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70?80 percent ?spontaneously lost those feelings??implying that a lot of this ?transgenderism? was in fact twisted adults projecting these feelings onto children."

btfo I found it

Okay, do you have a link or are you just gonna spout unsubstantiated rumors?

Also looking at Dr. Paul McHugh, finding out that he's a widely discredited quack, this does not very well back up your stance.

Edit: Defense of a stance using a the views spouted by a cruel man like Dr.Paul McHugh, especially when his views have not only been proven wrong scientifically... Especially when those views come from a political and religious view point, not a scientific one. It's a non argument. Here's a small bit of of Dr.Paul McHugh's quackery and cruelty [http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/paul-mchugh-transsexual.html]

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

-Snip-

First of all I'm not going to go digging in the career of a man who's legacy, via a small sampling of google results that took me less than a minute, is nothing but negative to the trans community. Anything related to the man is instantly suspect as his views are political and religious, not scientific, but having been in the field he has some very flawed clout amongst deniers.

Second, it's been addressed in detail, not only in my Original post but several times in this thread why the term tranny is offensive.

So from that I'm starting to conclude you're being discriminatory and insulting.