Hawking Warns Humanity to Avoid Dangerous Aliens

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Canid117 said:
Treblaine said:
Canid117 said:
The moon has water. As does Mars, and many other bodies in our solar system. Hell, comets are mostly ice. Water is not as rare as you seem to think. Our proximity to our sun is also not incredibly rare. Scientists have discovered several planets of similar size to earth which are a similar distance from their own suns. All of this is assuming that the aliens eat drink and breathe the same things we do. Do you have any idea how huge the galaxy is? Millions upon millions of solar systems each one of them with the potential to support life and with all the different ways that life can exist you are still assuming that we are going to run into something like Klingons? Humans with slightly different facial structure and green blood? We don't have shit that aliens want so why worry?
Water, but not LIQUID water, not GIGANTIC OCEANS, lakes and swamps of water, not a Water cycle of evaporation, rain and ice and so on. Those planets, moons and comets cannot in and of themselves easily support life of a wayward alien race.

I really can't even begin to fully explain how vital water is for life, all life, even alien life. Scientist have gone as far as to say complex life cannot develop on a planet WITHOUT large quantities of liquid water. Aliens may not breathe oxygen, they may not be able to eat the hydrocarbon chains we consider food, but almost certainly they will be hugely dependant on not just water to drink occasionally, but as a key part of their environment.

Water is a substance that is perfect for maintaining equilibrium, it is a massive heat store, it soaks up the suns energy preventing overheating on the sunny side, and on the dark side it acts like a giant hot-water bottle, preventing everything freezing. That's why deserts get so incredibly hot during the day and frostbite inducing cold at night, no water to act as a heat trap.

You know water has a heat capacity 8 times as high as steel? That means 1 kilo of water at 100-deg C has Eight times the energy of a 1 kilo block of steel at the same temperature.

The fact that most living creatures have a large proportion of their body mass as water is to aid in thermo-regulation, enzymes for maximum efficiency are only stable within a very narrow temperature range. Then of course sweating can quickly cool off.

Evaporation and precipitation acts as effectively a chemical scrubber for the atmosphere, it is the reason why Venus is choked in clouds of sulphuric acid, it had no water and rain cycle to scrub the volcanic gases that built up over billions of years. Rainfall keeps our atmosphere stable and regular, and to spite our best efforts also regulates the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere.

The ice water on the Moon, Mars and in other parts of the solar system will be vital for any space operations either by us in the future or any "visiting" aliens but it is not sustainable, it can only be used when processed by large machinery for artificial environments.

This is why scientist are so keen to find anywhere else in the Solar system or known universe that has liquid water. It really is a totally unique compound, as it makes a planet either a dead-bare planet or hellish acidic planet. In fact I have heard that it is so important it is not only considered practically a requirement for complex life but even a GUARANTEE, that if liquid water has existed on a planet for long enough (few billion years) then spontaneous life of some sort is inevitable.

there is also a pretty good chance any alien species will breathe oxygen at least in part, what is the worrying thing is what they exhale, they could easily breath in nitrogen gas and exhale hydrogen cyanide (which is not inherently dangerous to all life). There is also a chance a gas we consider inert and harmless to us and breath in all the time may be toxic to them, like Argon which makes up almost 1% of our atmosphere (doesn't have to be reactive, just block some of their biological chemical-receptors).

Most likely any difference will be in the detail, such as they are comfortable with a very different partial pressure of oxygen, and a different secondary gas, perhaps even helium.

The idea is Alien spaceships could simply enter our earth's atmosphere, land and get about colonising, mining and stripping resources not to leave but to stay. They wouldn't need space suits to work in the open, likely only a gas mask, though they may even resort to genetic modification of their own bodies or some other adaptation to breathe our unique atmosphere and likely the UV radiation from the sun will be either too high or too low for their liking. But genetic modification for dealing with a dry, or frozen planet, nuh uh, ain't gonna happen, if it can't be done in 3 billions yeas it likely can't be synthesised by science in any decent time.

One distinct possibility is they will attempt geo-modding, or should I say "Xeno-forming", transforming our planet to more suit their own adaptations. That's the way we humans do it, we change our environment to suit ourselves.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100106093642.htm

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/12/super-earth/

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/alpha-centauri-earth-like-planets-100201.html

http://io9.com/5446748/we-found-another-earthlike-planet-+-too-bad-it-was-destroyed-millennia-ago

Doesn't look like earth type planets are too rare
Hey, just because your neighbour is likely to get robbed doesn't mean you yourself won't get robbed. And none of those planets seem to be particularly good candidates as there are a hell of a lot of "maybes" "almost" and "shame it isn't around any more".

One thing this shows is how hard it is to find suitable watery planets from very far away, but blasting out intelligent radio signals seems to be a pretty good way of advertising our existence and they might conclude the same as us as this being a wet life supporting planet.

I'm with the Hawk-man on this one, we should look for other life in the universe but should NOT invite it to our doorstep.
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
stinkychops said:
You ommited the third option which was the entire point of my post.

Life is rare, the study of it on this planet would be just as valuable as any resources we could offer. Theres no logic in killing us.
What happens when extremist elements of our planet's population start lobbing nuclear bomb at every space ship that comes close because they are furious over humans killed when they take "biological samples"? I mean China, Russia, USA, UK and so many other participants in the Cold War were on the brink of annihilating each other with nuclear bombs for no particularly good reason, who is going to stop someone like China if they direct their weapons at what they perceive to be a threat?

See if they had arrived when we were all just in caveman stages it would be fine, but no, we are a threat to any alien species that want to operate in our solar system.

There is plenty of logic in killing for scientific study. How do you think the majority of animals were catalogued by us? The animals were captured, killed and dissected, then stuffed for display or stored in formaldehyde. Trust me, it is NOT pleasant to be the subject of alien study, it certainly wasn't for all the other animals of our own planet ecosystem.

They may even see humans as a disproportionate force on the planet, worried about deforestation, falling fish stock and dwindling wildlife the Aliens may say it's in the planet Earth's greater interest to destroy humanity or cripple it back to caveman stages.

And if we do hurt any of the peaceful scientific element of any Alien power then it is pretty likely that the more militant and unforgiving aspect of the alien power will respond.
 

Kaymish

The Morally Bankrupt Weasel
Sep 10, 2008
1,256
0
0
i think its a bit illogical to be honest there is no shortage of anything in the universe why waste resources by invading a plant where there heaps of the same resources a few million KM away on Mars or Venus? and if they can get here it is likely as not they can probably manufacture many of the compounds that they need out of basic elements

there is simply no logical reason for an alien race to plunder the earth unless they like giving other species the anal probe that much
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
stinkychops said:
Treblaine said:
stinkychops said:
You ommited the third option which was the entire point of my post.

Life is rare, the study of it on this planet would be just as valuable as any resources we could offer. Theres no logic in killing us.
What happens when extremist elements of our planet's population start lobbing nuclear bomb at every space ship that comes close because they are furious over humans killed when they take "biological samples"? I mean China, Russia, USA, UK and so many other participants in the Cold War were on the brink of annihilating each other with nuclear bombs for no particularly good reason, who is going to stop someone like China if they direct their weapons at what they perceive to be a threat?

See if they had arrived when we were all just in caveman stages it would be fine, but no, we are a threat to any alien species that want to operate in our solar system.

There is plenty of logic in killing for scientific study. How do you think the majority of animals were catalogued by us? The animals were captured, killed and dissected, then stuffed for display or stored in formaldehyde. Trust me, it is NOT pleasant to be the subject of alien study, it certainly wasn't for all the other animals of our own planet ecosystem.

They may even see humans as a disproportionate force on the planet, worried about deforestation, falling fish stock and dwindling wildlife the Aliens may say it's in the planet Earth's greater interest to destroy humanity or cripple it back to caveman stages.

And if we do hurt any of the peaceful scientific element of any Alien power then it is pretty likely that the more militant and unforgiving aspect of the alien power will respond.
I don't have much time so I'll give a short response. No disrespect. (Might have time tomorrow to look into this further).

If they value life, murder makes little sense.

If they value nature, they shouldn't interrupt evolution (our extinctions do fall into this category).

China would not Nuke them, perhaps terrorists-or religous groups-or North Korea, but it's unlikely any globalised country would launch nukes at aliens who could clearly slaughter us.
You may be right that they might respond with violence, but it's not a certainty. All I'm saying is that this still goes against the child with ants views, because they are being provoked. Thats all I set out to achieve. It's unlikely these space travellers will be barbarians.

We have plentyof dead humans to supply them with, no need to kill them for autopsies sake. Although you may be right, they may want to know what it takes to kill/revive one of us. In which case they could easily determine these by simply looking at our anatomy or looking at certain parts of the world. We have plenty of information sold to us by Japan from their inhumane tortures of POW's/chinese civilians in WWII.
Communication, co-operation, forget about it. Any "working together" with the aliens will be extremely difficult and that is assuming we even meet the aliens themselves and not just some robots. After all we sent robots to do most of hour hard work exploring our solar system, it makes sense that the first alien contact will be with alien probes (not THOSE type of probes, I mean like satellites) and autonomous explorers.

These will likely not think much for themselves (many reasons not to give artificial beings any decision making / sentience as they then become more troublesome and harder to use a expendable) and just have simple orders like get sampled, be subtle and report home.

But lets say we do meet actual alien species it would take an incredibly long time to even begin to have any meaningful communication between intelligent beings. And even then why should either side trust anyone? How do they know if we send them data about our own anatomies we might not lie?

Like we could lie that we have high resistance to radiation or that we have non-existent weaknesses. I mean there are plenty of reasons to not tell the aliens anything about us as that just would make it easier for them to destroy us, such as develop a virus by studying our living immune system.

I mean think about it, if the aliens asked for a list of viruses that gave humans fatal diseases... would ANY country be comfortable handing over that information? information the aliens likely couldn't easily get to themselves as every biology textbook would be almost impossible for them to decipher. What if they just engineer their own super-virus "just in case" we get out of control.

And what if they won't reveal anything about their own species, they just orbit our planet making demands about all our vulnerabilities.

I think what Hawkings was trying to say is even IF the chance of the aliens being dangerous might even be low, the danger is so incredibly high that it makes it far far too risky.

See playing Russian Roulette the chances are well in your favour, 83.3% chance the hammer will fall on an empty chamber, but the danger of instant and certain death of shooting yourself though the head... makes playing Russian Roulette an INCREDIBLY risky thing.

Same with meeting aliens on our doorstep, the Risk is just too high.

If we do meet any aliens it should be in a neutral planet in a different star system and no side is going to reveal where their home planet is till the other side does as well.

It's like having a blind date in your own home, no, you have it in a restaurant, neutral ground.
 

Canid117

New member
Oct 6, 2009
4,075
0
0
Treblaine said:
Hey, just because your neighbour is likely to get robbed doesn't mean you yourself won't get robbed.
It does if your neighbor doesn't have a gun and a bulldog and you do. Too bad only one of those four planets is gone. Wouldn't all the "Maybe's" be eliminated by the xenoforming you were talking about earlier? He is a brilliant physicist but a psychic he is not.

(Wow those sentences do not flow at all. I am lazy hehe.)
 

Danny Ocean

Master Archivist
Jun 28, 2008
4,148
0
0
The_Oracle said:
He has a good point. But I have a question for him in turn- if at least one of all of those hundreds upon hundreds of alien sightings that have occurred throughout history is genuine, which would mean aliens have visited before, why haven't they attacked if they were planning on doing so? There's always a possibility that aliens, if they exist, may not be friendly, but there's also the possibility that they're indifferent to us.
Perhaps they work on a different timescale. Rather than living decades, they might live centuries.
 

Redlin5_v1legacy

Better Red than Dead
Aug 5, 2009
48,836
0
0
Eh, you never know. We might encounter an ultra peaceful alien race for the sake of irony. We'll probably doom ourselves because one or two Xenophobic idiots will attempt to destroy them or something. But Stephan is really insulting everyones intellegence by saying we should avoid dangerous aliens... Duh? If a predator ever did come around, I'd hang out with Arnold Schwarzenegger for awhile until it all blew over.
 

Carnagath

New member
Apr 18, 2009
1,814
0
0
Well, we can't silence radio signals leaving our planet, so that's all a moot point. If we are in earshot of an all-devouring alien civilization that has been around for 4 or 5 billion years longer than us, we are dead and there's nothing we can do about it.

I laughed when a poster above suggested we should have some sort of planetary defence set up before sending out signals deliberately. Planetary defence. Yeah. We pretty much discovered all of our modern technology in a 300 year span, and we are going to defend ourselves against a species that have been doing their homework for billions of years. They'd probably be able to instazap our planet with a beam that destroys all organic life from some platform that's located 50 light years away! Planetary defence...

Jokes aside, I find it highly unlikely that there is another intelligent, space travelling civilization out there in the universe. Sure, there are definitely countless planets with life, but intelligent, technological life? I believe that we are a one-of-a-kind anomaly. Nobody knows of course, and hope is a nice and fine form of mental masturbation, but I really doubt it.
 

Caiti Voltaire

New member
Feb 10, 2010
383
0
0
It seems rather irresponsible for us to attempt to establish contact with races we have no prior knowledge of, without some significant security net, if you will. Both in the sense of military and social security. Would the blow us to kingdom come? Perhaps - it is certainly on the minds of a lot of people. But there are other dangers as well. For example, it may also be possible for them to isolate us entirely on Earth. Can we survive if we could never leave Earth again? Difficult to say. There could be entirely innocent dangers of contact with other races as well. What if they carried completely unknown extraterrestrial diseases to which they had built an immunity but to which we were completely defenceless?

There's a lot of bad scenarios even if the contact does go amiciably - so I don't think Hawking is wrong in advising caution.

That said, on a less serious note, I wonder if Dr. Hawking has been to Black Mesa lately...
 

Nerdfury

I Can Afford Ten Whole Bucks!
Feb 2, 2008
708
0
0
I haven't bothered reading all the pages, but I'll assume someone said something disparaging about Hawking.

I think I'll side with the man smarter than all of us combined, on this one.
 

Treblaine

New member
Jul 25, 2008
8,682
0
0
Canid117 said:
Treblaine said:
Hey, just because your neighbour is likely to get robbed doesn't mean you yourself won't get robbed.
It does if your neighbor doesn't have a gun and a bulldog and you do. Too bad only one of those four planets is gone. Wouldn't all the "Maybe's" be eliminated by the xenoforming you were talking about earlier? He is a brilliant physicist but a psychic he is not.

(Wow those sentences do not flow at all. I am lazy hehe.)
err, nobody is psychic :p

You can't xenoform billions of trillions of tons of water out of nowhere like you have with planet earth. The atmosphere is much easier to alter because by mass there is far less of it.

The point is watery planets are quite rare (going by models predicting formation of solar/star systems) so Aliens have an incentive to slug it slug it out with Earth (which is just about perfect for life) than go looking for another thousands or so light years for another watery planet.
 

Arashi500

New member
Sep 19, 2009
40
0
0
mattttherman3 said:
Maybe I'm naive but I like to hope that the aliens are like the ones from Star Trek(not like the Borg though, HELL NO). Theres no reason we can't all be friends.
You know, there could the reason that by that time we've emotionaly devolved to the point were it's acceptable to commit what we would call first degree murder on a large scale and literaly nobody would really care.

Other reasons could be they see killing us as some sort of mercy, or they just don't care, whether or not they hate us.

Has anyone even considered the possibility that we could discover alien worlds before they discovered us? Aliens that wouldn't necessarily be stone age or neandrathahls, but industrial age?
 

Arashi500

New member
Sep 19, 2009
40
0
0
cieply said:
Who am I to sisagree with Hawking, but I'm not all that worried. The universe is so big and vast that we probably have both aliens like in star trek as well as civilizations so advanced that they are nothing more but immortal gods. But I have to agree that we would probably not benefit from contact. We would just get a massive inferiority complex, knowing that we are not the centre of the universe and such. Our ego would get desintegrated.
Atleast it would disprove most (human obviously) religions.
 

WaywardHaymaker

New member
Aug 21, 2009
991
0
0
As much as I want us to journey out into the galaxy and meet a thriving galactic community like in Mass Effect (COMPLETELY NOT BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF HOT BLUE ALIEN CHICKS TO HAVE MIND SEX WITH), I think that Hawking is right.

If they attack us, we're fucked. You can't really defend a planet, there's infinite places to be attacked from. We would need to be the species that visits THEM, and conquer them. But that would be awful, my least favorite possibility of alien encounters is that we're bigger, better, and stronger, and we commit genocide and wipe out a complete other culture, rich with history and perspective that no one would ever experience again.

Yes, I DID glean most of the from Orson Scott Card, but I still agree with it.
 

RAMBO22

New member
Jul 7, 2009
241
0
0
I agree with hawking that learning from the rise of humanity and it's civilizations, we can assume that an advanced, space-faring civilization is NOT going to be friendly. Was Sparta or Athens friendly? Was Rome friendly? Was the Holy Roman Empire friendly? Was the British Empire friendly? For those of you that don't know, no, these civilizations were NOT friendly, and they represented some of the pinnacles of human civilization in their respective eras.