Hellboy Director Hates Game Cutscenes
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Truly-A-Lie said:
No, you're both reaching for something and failing to justify presupposed opinion, otherwise you wouldn't pick such a poorly thought out example.esperandote said:
Sound and music work with films, not against them. You can watch a film without being detracted from the visual element.
Now, if we saw a film that asked paused and asked us to turn to page 34 for a description of the political struggles between the two on screen parties and their history, instead of conveying all of this visually, then I have no doubt either of you would be appalled.
Truly-a-lie proposed an interesting thing in that taking away control from the player can be a powerful element, but the fact is that cutscenes aren't used to illustrate a lack of control for the character, but instead are scenes that take away power from the player, creating a disconnect between player and character. That would be fine it was the point, though it isn't outside of Ghost Trick.
Might I say that is an excellent use of that A Thing About Stuff.
And I have to agree with him, somewhat. I've never been a fan of cutscenes, and if it features talking heads (Show, don't tell!) or a character getting taken out by a low-level mook no different than the last 50 he slaughtered, then I am pissed.
And I have to agree with him, somewhat. I've never been a fan of cutscenes, and if it features talking heads (Show, don't tell!) or a character getting taken out by a low-level mook no different than the last 50 he slaughtered, then I am pissed.
Cutscenes work with games, not against them.Hitman Dread said:
Edit: Should probably add more...
Sound can work against a film. A poorly chosen sound effect, a badly directed score of music, things like that? That works against it.
Similarly, bad cutscenes can work against a game. Lengthy, poorly directed, poorly acted ones are a detriment. Good cutscenes, ones which add to the experience and the story, obviously work with the game.
So what it comes down to is "Your opinion of what constitutes a good cutscene." Unless you're extreme in your views, they probably don't reach "NO CUTSCENES EVER".
To everyone who derides cutscenes in games, I ask you this: How would you provide the story in beat 'em ups (such as BlazBlue) without using cutscenes?
I love this. Imagine if a film, in order to tell part of the story, suddenly directed people to read an accompanying pamphlet that was handed out with the tickets. People would think they'd gone insane. Why is his distaste for having what literally defines the medium (interactivity) stripped away from him at arbitrary points a sign of a lack of attention span?008Zulu said:
The thing that gets me about in game cutscenes is that you are suddenly forced out of second person perspective (from a narrative standpoint rather than a camera angle) and into third person. You go from being directly involved to being a spectator. As a player, I find that kind of insulting - particularly when the developer renders all the most important and awesome moments of a character through a cutscene. It's like you're just some clutz who gets to sit in on the mundane moments and the game punishes you for being beaten with the usual bloodstains, game over screens etc - but as soon as anything really fantastic happens they switch to a cutscene. This isn't true of all games, certainly. But I can definitely see where Del Toro is coming from.
It's good to know Del Toro isn't big on cutscenes either, as I've grown to hate them because of how much they get thrown at us lately, especially by fucking Square-Enix. Seems fitting he's talking to Ken Levine, who prefers the style of active scenes, much like Valve does, where you rarely lose control of what you're looking at or doing.
Also, edit that post, nobody cares about Casavin's work at Gamespot, point to his recent work on the gem that is Bastion.
Also, edit that post, nobody cares about Casavin's work at Gamespot, point to his recent work on the gem that is Bastion.
You lack a very fundamental of what is being said here.Amnestic said:
Games are an interactive medium. They tell their points and convey their senses through interactivity.
Cut scenes are not interactive. They are passive and get things across through passive means.
Sound in no way stops the visual experience anymore than it stops the interactive one in video games. There is no change in audience participation.
It isn't about what makes a good cutscene or bad cutscene or how much you like a cut scene. (and honestly, there really isn't anything very difficult about copying the film media these days, we've analyized that down pat so that any studio can recreate quality works to a certain degree). Its about proper use of the inter active medium, and how cut scenes completely invalidate that.
http://distractionware.com/blog/2009/04/judith/
This is the example that will come up time and time again on how cutscenes should be used. Here, cutscenes are used to convey a loss of control, as they well should be. Here cut scenes are being used as an actual element in games, instead of something outside the medium and tacked on.
You're the one that is failing to justify a presupposed opinion.Hitman Dread said:
Games don't ask us to "turn to page" cutscenes start automatically so that's a poorly thought example.
Cutscenes convey things visually
Cutscenes are a tool that can be greatly used to give context or narrate story. Bad cutscens are bad diseign/writing and if you skip all cutscenes then you're missing a lot. You would think that out of all people a director would know that.
No reason to go to extremes on either side. Sure, lots of fantastic games have been made without cutscenes, but there have been fantastic games with cut scenes as well. But when a game is done poorly without them, it's not automatically a better game because it was ballsy enough this day and age to not have any. Then, we get the opposite, which is just a wretched result.
To turn your analogy around, I think that cutscenes are like the title cards that pop up between the action in silent movies, that fill you in on plot. They work very well, when used well, and old movies that have them are certainly still enjoyable.Truly-A-Lie said:
But as games get better at telling stories through gameplay, cutscenes become less and less useful. Just as when the talkies were introduced the title cards became less and less useful, and ultimately obsolete.
One can still dream. My hope is that Del Toro proves his bankableness with his current projects and the execs greenlight him in a few years time. He has to make it.bahumat42 said:
So a game can't have both interactive sections and non-interactive sections to tell a story? Do you really think watching Shepard's body float in the vaccuum of space would be enhanced any by mashing buttons in a meaningless and superfluous quicktime event? Do you think the story of Gordon Freeman is enhanced any by giving him the ability to bunnyhop on Eli Vance's head while everyone else ignores him and acts completely normal?Hitman Dread said:
Bullshit. I've had poorly directed sound take me outside of a movie just as much as a poorly placed cutscene can take me out of a game.Hitman Dread said:
Do you have an answer as to how you could tell the story of BlazBlue without using cutscenes? I'm curious. Game developers probably are too.
It's fitting that people have brought up Bastion, because I hated the way narration was handled in that game. Barring some general exposition moments like the training grounds or one of the dream sequences, it was like having someone read the novelization of the game at me over my shoulder while I played, simultaneously distracting me and implying that my actions were meaningless (after all, they already happened). And yet people praise it for "blending story into gameplay," which I totally don't get.
It really sucks, because I had to finish the game once and reflect on it before I realized that the story was actually pretty good. As was exactly one of the characters.
It really sucks, because I had to finish the game once and reflect on it before I realized that the story was actually pretty good. As was exactly one of the characters.
And thank you for making me suddenly realize why I disagree so strongly with del Toro, because I don't go from being a participant to a spectator. Barring something like maybe MGS4 (never played it, but it seems the go-to negative comparison for length), I am the character(s) regardless of the level of control I have over them at a given moment. If I find the story worth my while in any way, I'm having fun at any given moment paying attention to it.Shamanic Rhythm said:
You know what else does that? The pause button. Just sayin'.cursedseishi said:
OT: I agree with the sentiment of a lot of people in this thread; cut scenes aren't bad in themselves, they just need to understand their place. The novelty of video games is their interactivity, and that interactivity provides developers with a wide array of tools to help convey character, setting, and tone. Sometimes you do need to take control away from the player to effect a radical change in the story without confusing anyone, but for the most part, this shouldn't be necessary. One thing is for certain though, if you're going to be taking away control from the player, don't patronize him by pretending you're not, especially at the cost of half decent cinematography. I'm looking at you Assassin's Creed <.<
he's on the new Zombie dvd doing an introduction. I have a few other cult films with him in the bonus content (Alucarda being one). I am not sure he's as serious as you think.xPixelatedx said:
I don't think its him criticizing the artistry just the application.
Yeah..... Well..... Hellboy 2 sucked! So there!
Sorry bro, but they are an important part of gaming. Far too often have I seen an important set piece missed because the player was looking for med-kits in the toilet.
Sorry bro, but they are an important part of gaming. Far too often have I seen an important set piece missed because the player was looking for med-kits in the toilet.
You still lack a very fundamental understanding of what anyone is actually talking about.Amnestic said:
What you are talking about is breaking immersion.
What I am talking about is that a cut scene used for non-control based reasons is disconnecting you from the game. It is unplugging your controller and asking you to now be and engage in a passive activity for a NON passive moment.
How much you liked a cut scene or a piece of music is really irrelevant to the entire conversation.
Unless the scene calls for a loss of control, either physically and literally or metaphorically.
In the game I linked above and in what is often cited in conversations about how cut scenes should be used in games, Judith is a woman who is married to a king. She is having an affair and brings her affair to the castle. Judith goes missing shortly after arriving at their getaway. From there you play as flashbacks as Judith, while you play as the male looking for her.
Judith gradually loses control of her own actions and she spends more time with her oppressive husband and falls more under his whim. As the game goes on, their are scenes were her actions are out of your control.
You never lose control of the man however, and everyone of his actions are within your control.
That is how narrative mechanics should be treated, with an understanding and respect for the medium. Now Judith on the whole isn't too amazing, but it showcases an understanding and executes were the vast majority of today's games fail.
If people can watch 2001 A Space Odyssey and its slow moving space portions, why can we not expect them to enjoy a well made space section?
Also quick time events are still cutscenes, just the butchered attempt to "fix" the cut scene problem.
Yes, because it makes the moments when Gordon is in the "other" place weight, we understand that he's outside the realm of reality in the opening cutscene and that his place in this is as out of his will, that he's as bound to fate and far from any sort of "free man" as people seem to think he is.
Now yes, there are still problems, we are sort of in the Seventh Seal era of narrative games right now, where we understand what to do, but struggle in making it match up with our current standards and techniques.
First off, most of that trouble lies in the trouble of Blazblue's story being half convulted and mashed together bits of bullshit.Hitman Dread said:
However, game developers have already given you a solution for how to have a narrative without breaking away the gameplay for cutscenes, yet people were too busy bitching about the lack of cutscenes and a linear narrative to notice.
Marvel Versus Capcom 3.
This game is obvliously taking heavy cues from Team Foretress 2, which as far as I can tell invested, refined, and perfected the technique.
Both games tell a non-linear story without end or definite beginning. Team Foretress 2 is about a war funded by science and money gone arry in a giant scheme, thus the story obviously never ends (thus making the point Metal Gear Solid 3 was trying to make in a much more effective and topic appropriate manner), Marvel Versus Capcom 3 is about intermediate brawls that have no mass connection.
Both focus more on establishing intent, motivation, and character through gameplay that, while concrete and clear during gameplay, is further enhanced by outside media. Before Meet the Medic came out, we all had a vague idea of who the Doctor was and why he was involved in the war. Other than daftness there is simply no way to not feel like an arrogant ass hole while playing the Scout, or a straightforward knucklehead after playing the Heavy for long enough.
The same can be said of MvC3, where great detail was put into getting the characters put across in gameplay. When you play Wolverine right, he feels like a dirty fucking animal, sliding on the floor, dive kicking over and over, berserker slashing through everything. Nova feels heavy buy mobile, like flying through space. While Hulk is a straight forward brusier, She-Hulk is a thinking man's grappler.
Blazblue also does this, to a smaller extent. Best example by far is V-13 x Ragna. I really miss their in game chatter about how V-13 loves Ragna, and can't understand why he doesn't see her killing him and aborbing his power as a beautiful thing. I understood their relation, as well as several other charecters, long before I played the game.
Transferring these techniques into a linear narrative wouldn't be that hard, just take a bit of work and imagination, and probably going back to the genre's work of side scrolling beat em up fused into the single player mode.