Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

[You Can't Take the Sky From Me]

*Snip*

[HEADING=2]Murder and rape are not the same.[/HEADING]

*Snip*

I'm going to agree with Maiev Shadowsong here, Killing and Rape are two different kinds of evil but there is one important distinction you have to keep in mind with this discussion.

Sometimes Killing is justified, but Rape is NEVER justified.

Killing is the act of taking another human being's life away. There are situations where Killing is, regrettably, a justifiable course of action or the only course of action. For example, I don't think that anyone would argue that Killing isn't justified when a person is confronted by an angry mob intent on doing grievous bodily harm to a them or killing them or their loved ones. Likewise killing is justified when a lone psycho with a gun storms a workplace and takes innocent people hostage.

Let's contrast this with Rape which is the act of forcibly using someone else's body for the rapist's sick pleasure. It's never justified. There is never a situation where Rape is a justifiable course of action, and believe me the Japanese have been trying for DECADES to contrive one with no success. When you get down to it, all Rape is is using someone else's body so you can get off. There's never a higher cause and Rape can never serve any other purpose than the Rapists pleasure.

Up front I just want to say that overall I agree with what you have said, but one thing that I always see in these debates (that I read for reasons only a skilled psychologist could tell you) that I feel should be addressed is that killing someone in self defense is not murder. Murder can never be justified. If someone attacked me and killed me they have committed a murder (with varying degrees depending on intent), if I kill them I have not. Murder is a legal principle, not just the act of taking a life. This is the same reason that a soldier killing during wartime is not a murderer. Of course with manslaughter definitions do become somewhat muddied.

On Topic: It probably would have been a better idea to wait until the full context of the event could be made clear before releasing this scene, especially with what a powder-keg the inter-net's been over such issues in recent times.

 

[DEAD34345]

You're all missing the point. It's not about what is good or bad or justified or whatever else. The question is whether the game should be changed to protect the emotionally vulnerable. The answer is no.

Actually I think it's the folks on your side who are mostly missing the point here.

You whinge about censorship and about the freedom of the artist - well, the artists here made a choice to edit their scene.

Read that again.

The artists made a choice.

Their scene was making people uncomfortable. This wasn't the reaction they wanted. So now they're reworking the scene, so that they reaction the audience has is closer to the reaction they wanted to invoke. They made a decision.

Maybe you people should respect it.

The artists were forced to make that choice because of the ridiculous complaints that were put against their original choice, which was to have the "rape scene" in the demo in the first place. I don't blame the artists for changing their work due to this pressure, in fact I don't even really blame the people that complained, since I'm sure they were only doing what they thought was right. I just think it's sad that an artist should have to censor his own work in this way, and that people still have such a weird double standard when it comes to rape.

Hotline Miami was about a psychopath who spoke to voices in his head and traveled around Miami indiscriminately and brutally murdering dozens, probably hundreds of people. That people can seriously claim that a rape scene takes it "too far" boggles my mind. That people try to justify it, and claim that rape is somehow worse than murder or any other crimes, just worries me.

 

[anthony87]

As long as they're not changing the game, just removing the rape(even though it's not) scene from the demo then I don't see much of a problem.

Still, I really don't think that the "Some people find this offensive so lets remove it" train of thought is the best way of going about things in general.

 

[Warachia]

A) How it feels to be murdered, which you can't since you aren't dead

I'm talking about people who haven't experienced being murdered or being raped. I imagine that being murdered is rather painful, don't you?

B) Where was there EVER a rape scene in Hotline Miami? And how was/would it be justified at all?

I meant that there was barely any justification for most of the mass-murder in Hotline Miami (other than the fact that all of the enemies were mobsters, but that changes by the second act when there's no justification at all). I'm not saying that rape is ever justified.

Aside from the pain I can't imagine what it would be like, would I be disappointed that I won't get to do the things I wanted to do? Would I be worried that the murderers might go after my friends and family next? Or would I just want the pain to end? My point was that you can't know unless it happens to you.

I apologize for that second one then, I misconstrued that since you only replied to the rape quote, no the mass murder (mostly) isn't justified, which is a good thing since you are clearly not playing as the hero in that game, just a nut job who's killing mafia members, but at the same time, when you are in the building it becomes justified (as far as the player is concerned) because if you don't kill them they WILL kill you. In some missions you just walk into the lobby of some place and they immediately gun you down for no reason, imagine if the character wanted to turn himself in during that police station mission, you enter the front door, and get shot in the face, in those cases I'd say it is justified, but I can't say the rape was ever justified, just like how the two really brutal/torture murders in the game aren't justified.

 

[wulf3n]

You will probably never know a murder victim. You will know a rape survivor. You will probably see multiple rape survivors every day.

I know more murder victims than I do rape survivors.

Because what people tend to forget is that a single murder has many victims.

The Mother and Father that lose a child.
The person that loses a sibling.
The child that loses a parent.
The person who loses a friend.

Not to forget those that may be unfortunate enough to witness said murder. Seeing someone laying on the ground half their head missing severely traumatizes a lot of people.

Sure Murder and Rape aren't the same thing. But don't try and play one up as worse than the other.

 

[Warachia]

The artists were forced to make that choice because of the ridiculous complaints that were put against their original choice, which was to have the "rape scene" in the demo in the first place. I don't blame the artists for changing their work due to this pressure, in fact I don't even really blame the people that complained, since I'm sure they were only doing what they thought was right. I just think it's sad that an artist should have to censor his own work in this way, and that people still have such a weird double standard when it comes to rape.

Hotline Miami was about a psychopath who spoke to voices in his head and traveled around Miami indiscriminately and brutally murdering dozens, probably hundreds of people. That people can seriously claim that a rape scene takes it "too far" boggles my mind. That people try to justify it, and claim that rape is somehow worse than murder or any other crimes, just worries me.

Weird, I read the article that said the developers didn't intend for people to take the scene the way they did, and as such are changing it so as to better bring out their original intentions. Nobody forced them to make this choice, and they didn't have to censor anything (and according to the article it's still going to be in the full game), and if you seriously think they did, then explain how, because telling a developer how you feel isn't forcing them to change something.

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

 

[wulf3n]

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

You mean this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5972-Rape-vs-Murder] one where he talks about killing and death but not murder and trivializes the plight of those that are victims of murder?

 

[Olikar]

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They where clearly pressured to make the 'choice' to remove the rape scene from the PAX demo, in what way is that not censorship?

 

[Olikar]

Pressured by whom?
If customers said they wouldnt buy the game (or sth. like that which I guess happened) how is that censorship? They cant force them to, but they have the right to express their opinion....or should they be forced to support the game?

"Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling body"

....so no censorship happened. I rest my case.

Clearly you don't understand what censorship is, people applying pressure on an artist to remove content from his art due to their own social and political values is censorship. If people had said they simply wouldn't buy the game then that would have been acceptable and wouldn't have been a call for censorship but a market action based on personal taste, but that certainly wasn't the case and certain people very clearly asked the developers to remove content because it offended them, which is censorship.

 

[wulf3n]

And yes, I know in games like GTA or Saints Row you can run around gunning down civilians, but does that really mean that you wouldnt feel uncomfortable if Rockstar would introduce a rape-minigame you can use to rape other people?

No more uncomfortable than I would gunning down civilians.

determined by a government, media outlet or other controlling bodyother controlling body"

Hmmm... controlling body seems a bit vague. I mean who would the controlling body of an Independent Game Developer who is trying to make something that will sell be? The developers themselves? or the consumers they're targeting?

 

[wulf3n]

Edit: Controlling body is always someone with the power to control sth, eg. to change it even without the artists consens. So its not vague at all.....

You keep saying "sth" What do you mean by that.

Power to Control is still vague. The consumer has power to control as evidenced here.

 

[Olikar]

They asked the developer, but in what way did they pressured them?

Painting the devs as people who 'profit from rape' thus attempting to make the devs appear immoral to the rest of society is very clearly a form of social pressure.

I can go to some painter and tell them I hate his pictures and Ill never buy them, if he wont change them....thats no censorship, just my opinion!

Again I said it's fine to exercise your power as a consumer but that's not what most of the 'criticism' against this scene was.

The only other alternative is to convince the artist that he should change it....but that would be even less censorship. So no, youre just wrong here!

If you convinced an artist to change his work (because it offended you based on political or social ideals)by applying social pressure then yes that is censorship.

 

[wulf3n]

Are you kidding me?

Nope, I'm just looking at the definition and possible interpretations.

You mean the consumer cant say that he doesnt like a certain part of a game or he censores the artist?

An interesting dilemma isn't it. Though it's another one of those situations where one person isn't, but many in unison are.

Are you insane?

Probably.

What kind of crazy world would that be,

A slightly different kind of crazy to the one we have now?

where I am forced to buy stuff or I censor someone?

There's a key distinction your missing here. It's not about buying everything or your censoring, it's about telling people you won't buy unless they change. There's a veiled ultimatum in there.

While effectively the same, as in they both result in you not buying, however one gives the creator a perception that you may buy it if they alter their work.

 

[BloodRed Pixel]

It was kind of dumb of them to include it without the proper context in the demo, but this is probably the best move they could make. Take it out of the demo to avoid controversy, but include it in the full game (with the context of the scene intact). Hopefully people will keep their torches and pitchforks at home until we understand the purpose of the scene.

This!
after the upheaval it caused in Tomb Raider, this was to be expected.

Avoiding strong topic in general isn`t the way to go, though.
If it's plausible within the story arc and trivialized for the kicks devs have every right to include it in their games.

As long as rape victims are going to jail and not the rapist, there is a lot more need to talk,
dance, paint, sing, perform, screen and express about.

 

[Warachia]

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

You mean this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5972-Rape-vs-Murder] one where he talks about killing and death but not murder and trivializes the plight of those that are victims of murder?

Firstly, "trivializes the plight of those that are victims of murder?" No, he doesn't, he explains why one is worse than the other, secondly, they're dead, they don't have a plight against it, thirdly, he definitely talks about murder, if one human kills another, it's murder, plain and simple, there's varying degrees and justifications, but that doesn't change it from being murder.

 

[DEAD34345]

-snip-

Weird, I read the article that said the developers didn't intend for people to take the scene the way they did, and as such are changing it so as to better bring out their original intentions. Nobody forced them to make this choice, and they didn't have to censor anything (and according to the article it's still going to be in the full game), and if you seriously think they did, then explain how, because telling a developer how you feel isn't forcing them to change something.

The developers created the scene and added it to their game (and demo). Lots of people immediately decided the scene was offensive, taking it completely the wrong way (in a way the developers didn't intend), and complained about it. The developers then had to remove it, in order to stop people from taking offense. As I explained in the post above, I have nothing against the artists making that choice, but I don't think it was a choice they should have had to make in the first place. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have used the word "forced" like that. They could have just left it there and endured the complaints and offense caused, I suppose. That doesn't change my opinion that the complaints and offense were completely unwarranted and kind of disturbing though.

The issue I have is that people were so unnecessarily affected by it in the first place. This is a game about a psychotic murderer doing horrible things (assuming it's anything like its predecessor), if you are the type to be offended then this is not the game for you. A society that claims brutal violence and murder is fine to depict in media but rape is too far is fundamentally wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.

I've watched it, and it's as inane as all the other similar arguments I've heard on it. I watch and like the Jimquisition show, but that's one viewpoint of his I entirely disagree with. It's essentially a list of reasons why rape is horrible, but of course rape is horrible, it's even horrible in a few ways murder isn't. I could just as easily come up with my own list of (completely meaningless) reasons why murder is worse than rape, though, it doesn't really change anything.

 

[josemlopes]

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Because murder victims get away with it easy, right? I mean no one takes away their choice, dead people get to do a lot of things after they are murdered, they are still free in comparision to a rape victim. And dont forget the near death experiences, you still get the fear that you can die every day, the fear that someone might not just take your "freedom of choice" but the world with him.

They are both incredibly bad but please, use logic next time.

 

[wulf3n]

Firstly, "trivializes the plight of those that are victims of murder?" No, he doesn't, he explains why one is worse than the other,

How is comparing one persons pain to another and saying ones worse isn't trivializing the issue.

secondly, they're dead, they don't have a plight against it,

If you were to be murdered do you honestly believe you'd be the only person to care?

Because what people tend to forget is that a single murder has many victims.

The Mother and Father that lose a child.
The person that loses a sibling.
The child that loses a parent.
The person who loses a friend.

Not to forget those that may be unfortunate enough to witness said murder. Seeing someone laying on the ground half their head missing severely traumatizes a lot of people.

thirdly, he definitely talks about murder, if one human kills another, it's murder, plain and simple, there's varying degrees and justifications, but that doesn't change it from being murder.

No Murder [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder] requires it to be unlawful. Any act of killing that is lawful is not murder. All killings are bad, but not all are murder.

Okay guys....I wont discuss this any further.....I can only guess you are trolling me (in which case good work).

Wow, I try and point out that it's not a black and white issue and get accused of trolling. Classy.

 

[Evil Smurf]

As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

because if you are raped then you are still alive, if you are murdered then you are not.

 

[Olikar]

As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

because if you are raped then you are still alive, if you are murdered then you are not.

So what if someone who played HM where the victim of extreme physical violence (but survived)?