Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

xPixelatedx

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Maiev Shadowsong said:
[HEADING=2]Murder and rape are not the same.[/HEADING]
Yeah, murder is a lot worse.

A rape victim, though horribly troubled, still has the opportunity to live a life, and even a happy one. Take it from someone who has someone in their family who is a rape victim. Everything she's experienced for all these years; all the wonders and joy, would have been taken away from her if she were killed instead of raped. And you know what? She was able to experience all that because she learned to deal with it. You can still go to work, you can still be with your friends, family. You can actually get to see your golden years and be with someone you love until the end. You can't learn to deal with being killed, you're ******* dead. You don't get the opportunity to live a life, happy or otherwise. To say being killed is better then being raped are the words of a privileged/sheltered person in a first world country who doesn't know what the actual value of a life is, because they haven't lost enough of them.

You're definitely right, I will never know a murder victim, obviously. However I know several people who have had family members and friends murdered, and I have lost people very close to me to other forms of death. The most important people to me, in fact. Is a complete detachment from reality to even hint that is comparable to abuse; rape or otherwise. I'd rather be raped a thousand times over, if it meant just bringing one of those people back...

If people really are so uncomfortable with rape in games to the point they actually try to make an argument that it's worse then murder, maybe (just maybe) we are trying to detract from the fact that we are indeed making far too many games where we slaughter people for fun.
 

Warachia

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Father Time said:
So why not just have a warning before the demo starts and leave it in?
Because it gives off the wrong message/impression about what's in the game/what the game is about, if it goes against what they want to bring across, then they would be smart to remove it.
 

wulf3n

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Warachia said:
but one (in his opinion) is worse than the other.
Which is how he trivializes the issue, by comparing non comparable things and decide one is worse than another

Warachia said:
Oh, you meant plight of the victims relatives/friends, you really should have said that, instead of just talking about the victims.
They are victims [http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/victim] to.


Warachia said:
Incidentally, if you were raped, do you think you'd be the only person affected by it?
No, nor am I saying one is worse than another.
 

Olikar

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Warachia said:
They never had to make that choice at all, they could have ignored the complaints, but because they care about what their game says and they want to bring across the right tone/message they are interested in how people interpret it
I don't think it has anything to do with tone, I think they simply didn't want to deal with a shitstorm.



whether or not they intended the game to be sexist isn't an issue
Actually that should be the main issue at hand.



it certainly comes off as sexist
Anything can be sexist if you wish to interpret it that way.



and if it wasn't there original intention then it would have been wise to change how it was presented.
Maybe but if they chose not to change it the claims of sexism wouldn't be given any validity from that.

Their issue is if the rape is presented as something the main character does and gets away with without any consequences,
There are no consequences for that at all because he didn't actually do it, it's fictional in the context of the game.

Let's look at the first game, you play a psychotic masked murderer, but there's consequences for all of the people you kill,
No there are no consequences at all for your murders in the first HM.



the mafia comes after you,
They don't you go after them.


and even buys out the police
I think you're remembering things incorrectly, that doesn't happen.

eventually your girlfriend is shot,and so are you,
But this is not a consequence of the actions of your character. (also depending on how you interpret the game your character isn't even shot)
 

Warachia

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xPixelatedx said:
Maiev Shadowsong said:
[HEADING=2]Murder and rape are not the same.[/HEADING]
Yeah, murder is a lot worse.

A rape victim, though horribly troubled, still has the opportunity to live a life, and even a happy one. Take it from someone who has someone in their family who is a rape victim. Everything she's experienced for all these years; all the wonders and joy, would have been taken away from her if she were killed instead of raped. And you know what? She was able to experience all that because she learned to deal with it. You can still go to work, you can still be with your friends, family. You can actually get to see your golden years and be with someone you love until the end. You can't learn to deal with being killed, you're ******* dead. You don't get the opportunity to live a life, happy or otherwise. To say being killed is better then being raped are the words of a privileged/sheltered person in a first world country who doesn't know what the actual value of a life is, because they haven't lost enough of them.

You're definitely right, I will never know a murder victim, obviously. However I know several people who have had family members and friends murdered, and I have lost people very close to me to other forms of death. The most important people to me, in fact. Is a complete detachment from reality to even hint that is comparable to abuse; rape or otherwise. I'd rather be raped a thousand times over, if it meant just bringing one of those people back...

If people really are so uncomfortable with rape in games to the point they actually try to make an argument that it's worse then murder, maybe (just maybe) we are trying to detract from the fact that we are indeed making far too many games where we slaughter people for fun.
You can't speak for everybody though, there are plenty of people who can't get past that kind of experience, and in some peoples minds the murder victim got off easier because they are no longer suffering.

Since we're looking at personal experiences here's one of mine, I had a grandfather who was developing alzheimer's, he was starting to forget minor things when he fell in his backyard, was taken to the hospital, and later died peacefully in his sleep.

His wife was a different story, she had parkinson's, her body slowly wasted away for five years as we tried helping her through it, she got more jittery, she later couldn't walk, eventually she required 24-hour care and we had to move her into a care home, and eventually she asked us to stop coming because she didn't want us to see her like that, she died slowly with fluid filling up her lungs. Personally I would have greatly preferred she die like her husband, because then she wouldn't have had to watch herself waste away like that.

Just because an experience turns out one way for you or for somebody you know doesn't mean that it will turn out the same way for everyone else.
 

Psychobabble

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Genocidicles said:
The Plunk said:
Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.
It's not even a 'real' rape scene. It's part of a movie in the game for crying out loud.

Whereas the player character can 'really' gun people down, slit their throats, cave their skulls in, jab their eyes out with a broken pool cue or throw boiling water in their faces and watch the skin melt off, and that's all perfectly fine as you said.
Yeah what they should do now is also remove all the bits of gratuitous violence and remake the game into something like Pie Fight Miami. Enough is enough with these mephitic murder simulators infecting the minds of our generation. Stop the hate child!
 

josemlopes

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Warachia said:
xPixelatedx said:
Maiev Shadowsong said:
[HEADING=2]Murder and rape are not the same.[/HEADING]
Yeah, murder is a lot worse.

A rape victim, though horribly troubled, still has the opportunity to live a life, and even a happy one. Take it from someone who has someone in their family who is a rape victim. Everything she's experienced for all these years; all the wonders and joy, would have been taken away from her if she were killed instead of raped. And you know what? She was able to experience all that because she learned to deal with it. You can still go to work, you can still be with your friends, family. You can actually get to see your golden years and be with someone you love until the end. You can't learn to deal with being killed, you're ******* dead. You don't get the opportunity to live a life, happy or otherwise. To say being killed is better then being raped are the words of a privileged/sheltered person in a first world country who doesn't know what the actual value of a life is, because they haven't lost enough of them.

You're definitely right, I will never know a murder victim, obviously. However I know several people who have had family members and friends murdered, and I have lost people very close to me to other forms of death. The most important people to me, in fact. Is a complete detachment from reality to even hint that is comparable to abuse; rape or otherwise. I'd rather be raped a thousand times over, if it meant just bringing one of those people back...

If people really are so uncomfortable with rape in games to the point they actually try to make an argument that it's worse then murder, maybe (just maybe) we are trying to detract from the fact that we are indeed making far too many games where we slaughter people for fun.
You can't speak for everybody though, there are plenty of people who can't get past that kind of experience, and in some peoples minds the murder victim got off easier because they are no longer suffering.

Since we're looking at personal experiences here's one of mine, I had a grandfather who was developing alzheimer's, he was starting to forget minor things when he fell in his backyard, was taken to the hospital, and later died peacefully in his sleep.

His wife was a different story, she had parkinson's, her body slowly wasted away for five years as we tried helping her through it, she got more jittery, she later couldn't walk, eventually she required 24-hour care and we had to move her into a care home, and eventually she asked us to stop coming because she didn't want us to see her like that, she died slowly with fluid filling up her lungs. Personally I would have greatly preferred she die like her husband, because then she wouldn't have had to watch herself waste away like that.

Just because an experience turns out one way for you or for somebody you know doesn't mean that it will turn out the same way for everyone else.
The thing though is that at least the rape victim still can do that choice if it cant handle life after that and I think anyone should understand why, sometimes its too much since everything can turn into a snowball and get worse. For some it works out and life is worth living and for others it isnt, just like with euthanasia the choice should be available for the victim.
 

Warachia

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wulf3n said:
Warachia said:
but one (in his opinion) is worse than the other.
Which is how he trivializes the issue, by comparing non comparable things and decide one is worse than another

Warachia said:
Oh, you meant plight of the victims relatives/friends, you really should have said that, instead of just talking about the victims.
They are victims.
That's a comparison, not trivialization.

They weren't the ones murdered, so they aren't the victims.

Father Time said:
Warachia said:
Father Time said:
So why not just have a warning before the demo starts and leave it in?
Because it gives off the wrong message/impression about what's in the game/what the game is about, if it goes against what they want to bring across, then they would be smart to remove it.
"Warning: contains a brief scene of rape" wouldn't do it?
No, because if there's no consequences are context for it then it gives some people the impression that the game is condoning rape, and since they don't want to give that impression, they are changing it.

Olikar said:
Warachia said:
They never had to make that choice at all, they could have ignored the complaints, but because they care about what their game says and they want to bring across the right tone/message they are interested in how people interpret it
I don't think it has anything to do with tone, I think they simply didn't want to deal with a shitstorm.
Then that's your opinion, if you are going to ignore what they've said and make up your own mind then I don't have anything else to say.




Actually that should be the main issue at hand.
Anything can be sexist if you wish to interpret it that way.
Maybe but if they chose not to change it the claims of sexism wouldn't be given any validity from that.
If you show off any gender purely for the enjoyment of the opposite gender then it will be sexist, that's not an interpretation, the reason that the intent isn't important is because I'm not analysing the creative process, just the final product.

Their issue is if the rape is presented as something the main character does and gets away with without any consequences,
There are no consequences for that at all because he didn't actually do it, it's fictional in the context of the game.
I know, but in the fictional consequence that we have weren't given context for nothing bad happens to him for raping the woman, making it seem like it's condoning it.
No there are non consequences at all for your murders in the first HM.

They don't you go after them.

I think you're remembering things incorrectly, that doesn't happen.

But this is not a consequence of the actions of your character. (also depending on how you interpret the game your character isn't even shot)
They attack you with vans smashing into their own buildings trying to get to you.

The files you find certainly state that they had ties to the Russian mafia, not to mention the police kill you on sight in the mission where they show up but they don't do anything to the mafia.

I'm pretty sure the man with the gun shooting at you then you later showing up with a head wound and requiring surgery to get fragments of metal out of your skull makes it pretty clear that you were shot, not to mention the police reports saying that he has ties to the mafia, and the fact that the cleaners specifically say that they don't do anything bad to the people who don't do what they say, they just make threats, so they certainly didn't send the assassin after you.
 

DEAD34345

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Warachia said:
Lunncal said:
The developers created the scene and added it to their game (and demo). Lots of people immediately decided the scene was offensive, taking it completely the wrong way (in a way the developers didn't intend), and complained about it. The developers then had to remove it, in order to stop people from taking offense. As I explained in the post above, I have nothing against the artists making that choice, but I don't think it was a choice they should have had to make in the first place.
They never had to make that choice at all, they could have ignored the complaints, but because they care about what their game says and they want to bring across the right tone/message they are interested in how people interpret it, and yeah, I know you say the same in the next paragraph that I quote, but you really should stop using sentences like "the developers then had to remove it", instead use something like "the developers then chose to remove it", at least that way you'll still bring across the point that they changed it because of fan feedback.
Well, as you've just said I did explain myself immediately afterwards. I don't really see any need to change the wording, considering my meaning is elaborated upon in the very next sentence.

Let's look at a game I really hate that's been out for a long time called Metroid Other M, just looking at how the game is presented makes it look like a very sexist game because every single time the main character isn't wearing armour the camera always frames her T&A just right so that they can show them off, sometimes both in a single shot, and sometimes they're highlighted with overhead lights, whether or not they intended the game to be sexist isn't an issue, it certainly comes off as sexist, and if it wasn't there original intention then it would have been wise to change how it was presented.

How this relates to Hotline Miami is the main character is presented as going to rape a woman, the director comes on screen and gives directions for how the woman can act to be more helpless, this can give some people the impression that the game condones rape, and since that was absolutely not their original intention, they're wise to remove it until we have the proper context for it.
Why? It's a demo, you're not going to have much context for the game at all, presumably. There's plenty of equally uncontextualised murder in that demo too, as there are in many others, and other full games for that matter. I don't see why that's a problem, and if it is somehow a problem, I don't see why that only applies to the rape scene specifically.

In retrospect I probably shouldn't have used the word "forced" like that. They could have just left it there and endured the complaints and offense caused, I suppose. That doesn't change my opinion that the complaints and offense were completely unwarranted and kind of disturbing though.

The issue I have is that people were so unnecessarily affected by it in the first place. This is a game about a psychotic murderer doing horrible things (assuming it's anything like its predecessor), if you are the type to be offended then this is not the game for you. A society that claims brutal violence and murder is fine to depict in media but rape is too far is fundamentally wrong as far as I'm concerned.
Their issue is if the rape is presented as something the main character does and gets away with without any consequences, if a character raped another, and this was a major plot point (as in people kept coming after you or it had serious consequences) then it would be different, but the demo doesn't show any of that.

Let's look at the first game, you play a psychotic masked murderer, but there's consequences for all of the people you kill, the mafia comes after you, and even buys out the police to come after you, eventually your girlfriend is shot, and so are you, if you completed all of the missions with no negative consequences then people could certainly be upset at it, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them.
Ah, maybe this where our viewpoints are fundamentally different, then. I absolutely would disagree with those hypothetical people. Why does a game have to moralize with these negative karmic repercussions to rape or any other immoral action? That's not to say a developer shouldn't do that if they want to, but to say that it is wrong if they don't is silly. In real life bad people sometimes get away with doing bad things. That's just a fact, and I have no issue with it happening in media. I don't think that someone getting away with rape in a game would imply support of the action by the developer, either.

Also, people getting upset at rape, but not at murder, isn't a double standard, if you want to know why people feel the way they do, just look up the Jimquisition episode where he talks about both.
I've watched it, and it's as inane as all the other similar arguments I've heard on it. I watch and like the Jimquisition show, but that's one viewpoint of his I entirely disagree with. It's essentially a list of reasons why rape is horrible, but of course rape is horrible, it's even horrible in a few ways murder isn't. I could just as easily come up with my own list of (completely meaningless) reasons why murder is worse than rape, though, it doesn't really change anything.
Then you should take it as a chance to see why other people see it as worse than murder, you don't have to agree with him, you just need to understand the opposing viewpoint. Incidentally, I'm not trying to convince you to join me in this argument, just trying to get you to see where some people are coming from.
I understand the viewpoint, I just think it's idiotic, and I don't like how it affects how artists go about their work. The whole idea is most likely a remnant of the weird "sex is eeeeevvvvviiiilllll" vibe still lingering around throughout society, in my opinion. I'll probably continue to complain and argue about it, just as people with that viewpoint will probably continue to complain and argue when it's depicted in video games.
 

Warachia

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Lunncal said:
Warachia said:
Let's look at a game I really hate that's been out for a long time called Metroid Other M, just looking at how the game is presented makes it look like a very sexist game because every single time the main character isn't wearing armour the camera always frames her T&A just right so that they can show them off, sometimes both in a single shot, and sometimes they're highlighted with overhead lights, whether or not they intended the game to be sexist isn't an issue, it certainly comes off as sexist, and if it wasn't there original intention then it would have been wise to change how it was presented.

How this relates to Hotline Miami is the main character is presented as going to rape a woman, the director comes on screen and gives directions for how the woman can act to be more helpless, this can give some people the impression that the game condones rape, and since that was absolutely not their original intention, they're wise to remove it until we have the proper context for it.
Why? It's a demo, you're not going to have much context for the game at all, presumably. There's plenty of equally uncontextualised murder in that demo too, as there are in many others, and other full games for that matter. I don't see why that's a problem, and if it is somehow a problem, I don't see why that only applies to the rape scene specifically.
Why it's important is because impressions are important, the demo is supposed to give you an impression of the finished product, according to them they gave the wrong impression, so they decided to change that.
Ah, maybe this where our viewpoints are fundamentally different, then. I absolutely would disagree with those hypothetical people. Why does a game have to moralize with these negative karmic repercussions to rape or any other immoral action? That's not to say a developer shouldn't do that if they want to, but to say that it is wrong if they don't is silly. In real life bad people sometimes get away with doing bad things. That's just a fact, and I have no issue with it happening in media. I don't think that someone getting away with rape in a game would imply support of the action by the developer, either.
It has to somewhat moralize it because otherwise the game is just blatantly encouraging the murders, of course this isn't going to encourage real life murders, but it's still an issue with some people and I wouldn't be able to disagree with it.

I'm not saying the developer supports it, I'm saying that the game does, and since the developer doesn't support it they decided to change it, I don't see why this is an issue.

I understand the viewpoint, I just think it's idiotic, and I don't like how it affects how artists go about their work. The whole idea is most likely a remnant of the weird "sex is eeeeevvvvviiiilllll" vibe still lingering around throughout society, in my opinion. I'll probably continue to complain and argue about it, just as people with that viewpoint will probably continue to complain and argue when it's depicted in video games.
Fair enough, if you get where the people are coming from then I don't really have too much more to say.
 

wulf3n

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Warachia said:
That's a comparison, not trivialization.
Trivialisation may have been too strong of a word and incorrect, but its certainly disrespectful to the victims of one to say that the pain of the other is worse


Warachia said:
They weren't the ones murdered, so they aren't the victims.
A victim is anyone that is adversely affected by a crime.
 

Warachia

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wulf3n said:
Warachia said:
That's a comparison, not trivialization.
Trivialisation may have been too strong of a word and incorrect, but its certainly disrespectful to the victims of one to say that the pain of the other is worse


Warachia said:
They weren't the ones murdered, so they aren't the victims.
A victim is anyone that is adversely affected by a crime.
While I certainly don't share either of those views, I'm not going to argue since at least now I know where you're coming from, and since this is now mostly a difference of opinion.
 

Zer0Saber

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I'm guessing it was mostly people who didn't play the first game who had the issues.

Oh, and we should also take rape out of books, movies,and such......Prime-Time Television.............because screw narrative......Also bad things happen, alot, all over the world. If you don't like it because of reasons that's your thing, leave my thing out of it.
 

briankoontz

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I'm not quite sure I understand - we commit murder on a constant basis in video games and frequently witness it as well - so why don't we care about offending gamers who have witnessed murders in their lives? In fact, many gamers who have killed people in real life (soldiers) play games where they kill people and witness murder and are as fine with it as people who have never killed or witnessed murder.

There's no honesty in saying that murder is non-offensive while rape is offensive. While I would prefer a world where neither event occurred, any sane human being prefers rape to murder, assuming that "none of the above" is off the table.

The common reply is that we're not REALLY killing people when we "kill people" in video games. Well duh, and we're not really raping them either, of course.