Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

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Warachia

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Olikar said:
Warachia said:
If you show off any gender purely for the enjoyment of the opposite gender then it will be sexist,
Are you going to back that up or just assert it?
It's for the enjoyment of the other gender and the detriment of the target. It being discriminatory is what makes it sexist: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sexist
the reason that the intent isn't important is because I'm not analysing the creative process, just the final product.
Sexism implies intent, you can only say the depiction of a certain character is sexist if there is clear intent for it to be sexist.
Not if I'm analysing the product and not the creators, I'm looking at it on its own merits, not what they intended.
Also, Sexism in no way implies intent.
I know, but in the fictional consequence that we have weren't given context for nothing bad happens to him for raping the woman, making it seem like it's condoning it.
No it wouldn't, at most you could say the film within the game is condoning rape (even that is a dubious claim though)
The demo as of now IS the film, so by your own logic it could condone rape


They attack you with vans smashing into their own buildings trying to get to you.
That could be just back up for the guys in the building, there's nothing to suggest they are arriving simply because Jacket is there.
Your own statement is contradictory, you're saying the backup is there with no purpose, they are backup arriving because you're in the building, not because they just wanted to smash through the door for no reason.

The files you find certainly state that they had ties to the Russian mafia, not to mention the police kill you on sight in the mission where they show up but they don't do anything to the mafia.
That's because all the Mafia surrender and drop their weapons. Also I don't recall any file where it states the police have a connection with the Mafia.
If you have no weapons they still kill you, they don't bother arresting or detaining the mafia in any way.
You later argue interpretations, my interpretation with the sentence fragments was that they did buy them off.
I'm pretty sure the man with the gun shooting at you then you later showing up with a head wound and requiring surgery to get fragments of metal out of your skull makes it pretty clear that you were shot,
It's the opinion of many fans (me included) that Jacket wasn't shot but rather in the seemingly paradoxical fight scene with Biker (in which both seem to win depending on the person recalling it) he is actually the one who loses but doesn't die and is put into a coma by his head injury (him being shot is imagined while his girlfriend was actually shot). There's a lot of clues for this if you look around a bit, the three men wearing the masks (who some people take to be your subconscious) all refer to your actions as if they occurred in the past tense as though you where reliving them, after your fight with Biker things go really bizarre (seeing corpses in random areas for example) but after he wakes from the Coma it goes back to normal (or as normal as HM can get) suggesting they where imagined.
I'm not going to argue different interpretations, but then how did your girlfriend die?
not to mention the police reports saying that he has ties to the mafia, and the fact that the cleaners specifically say that they don't do anything bad to the people who don't do what they say, they just make threats, so they certainly didn't send the assassin after you.

Except that not only does he explicitly state he was involved with janitors it's very heavily implied in the file he murdered your girlfriend because of Janitors.
He states that he was following the messages on the phone, it's never stated that the janitors sent him after you (if anything it's the opposite), and how do you explain that "ties to the russian mafia" bit?
...suspects claim to have been threatened into...
...instructed to kill by messages on their...
Perhaps they lied?
Why? They have no reason to, when you talk to them, they say that the threats alone are enough to get people to do what they want, and that they don't take any action against those who go against their orders (biker is a special case since he is hunting them down).

Maybe we should stop arguing about how we interpret the games though, let's look at what we do know, you play a murderer, and no matter your interpretation things certainly don't go well for him.
 

wulf3n

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DrunkenElfMage said:
This is NOT CENSORSHIP. This is the creative team taking two seconds out of the goddamn DEMO for chrisake. They are changing the scene in the game because it was not eliciting the reaction they wanted from gamers,
Technically we don't even know how if its being removed from the final game. All we know is its being removed from the demonstration shown at a public event.
 

Quadocky

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I don't think video games are ready for the subject of Rape. There is just too much personal emotional nuance.
 

briankoontz

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Personal emotional nuance? Game developers got around "personal emotional nuance" with respect to murder by simply ignoring it - game protagonists are soulless husks who treat murder victims like a farmer with a scythe treats his wheat fields.

Why suddenly are game protagonists, currently soulless husks, supposed to be all squeamish and sensitive about rape? Consider the Dragonborn, covered in tissue, blood, and bone fragments from his latest crop of death-making approaching a lady, bowing gallantly, and saying "after you, madam". Fucking ridiculous.

Why not just make all the rape victims Nazi women, or demons. So, you know, they had it coming. It's what game developers currently do for murder, why not just extend that to rape?

Conan the Barbarian is at least honest. Kill the men and rape the women. If you're going to be a murderous psychopath who kills all the men then I'm not sure why the women are spared, unless the plan is to round them all up, make them your personal harem, and take turns with them. Technically that's not rape. Gamers call that "fun gameplay".
 

Baldry

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I don't think the scene should've been in the demo...Surely if it's plot relative then without context yeah it will seem shocking or terrible and no matter what will probably dredge up a memory or two, it's gonna make people uneasy but that's not a bad thing as long as it's done tastefully and well but it shouldn't have been in the demo.
 

Worgen

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The Plunk said:
As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.
Well killing sprees like what happens in the game are pretty rare, sexual assault seems to be something that women have to worry about fairly regularly. I've known more than a few women who have been sexually assaulted and one who was gang raped in her own house by three guys who broke in. My point is that there is a sizable portion of the population that has to worry about it happening to them.
 

DarthSka

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Worgen said:
The Plunk said:
As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.
Well killing sprees like what happens in the game are pretty rare, sexual assault seems to be something that women have to worry about fairly regularly. I've known more than a few women who have been sexually assaulted and one who was gang raped in her own house by three guys who broke in. My point is that there is a sizable portion of the population that has to worry about it happening to them.
And in many parts of the world, murder, death, etc. is an everyday worry and reality. It's not true for most of us here I'm guessing, but for many others, it's a painful reality. Hell, that's what my mom had to grow up with.

Rape and sexual assaults are not that common in gaming and when they are used, it is typically not done well or tastefully. But the only way for it to get to a better point is if artists are allowed to try. Now these guys pulled it of their own accord, but whether or not it was due to pressure is another point of debate.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
DarthSka said:
Worgen said:
The Plunk said:
As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.
Well killing sprees like what happens in the game are pretty rare, sexual assault seems to be something that women have to worry about fairly regularly. I've known more than a few women who have been sexually assaulted and one who was gang raped in her own house by three guys who broke in. My point is that there is a sizable portion of the population that has to worry about it happening to them.
And in many parts of the world, murder, death, etc. is an everyday worry and reality. It's not true for most of us here I'm guessing, but for many others, it's a painful reality. Hell, that's what my mom had to grow up with.

Rape and sexual assaults are not that common in gaming and when they are used, it is typically not done well or tastefully. But the only way for it to get to a better point is if artists are allowed to try. Now these guys pulled it of their own accord, but whether or not it was due to pressure is another point of debate.
I imagine the threat of rape in the parts of the world where murder is common, is much higher as well.

I would argue that there really isn't a way to tastefully have a rape or sexual assault, especially not by the player character. Which is what it seems like is the case in the game, I haven't played the demo, I was waiting for it to come out.
 

Lieju

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So, why did you put it in the demo, then, without the full context?

Rape can be handled well in stories, but doing something like that is not going to give me confidence you can do it.
 

Dizeazedkiller

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The way they handled it was very good. Still it's a very simple fix for those complaining; don't play the game. The fault lays on the side of the player. It is their responsibility to avoid stimuli that may affect them negatively. No one should pander to them.
 

Caiphus

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Maiev Shadowsong said:
It occurs to me that almost all of the people dismissing the impact of rape are male.
A statement like that is never going to help your argument. Why would you post something like that?
 
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Rape in movies? Ok!
Rape in literature? Ok!
Rape in live-action tv-shows *coughGameOfThronescough*? Ok!

Rape in video games? OH LAWD IN HEAVEN, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT, GAME DEVELOPER!!!
 

Caiphus

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Maiev Shadowsong said:
Caiphus said:
Maiev Shadowsong said:
It occurs to me that almost all of the people dismissing the impact of rape are male.
A statement like that is never going to help your argument. Why would you post something like that?
I noticed it. I commented on it.
Good for you. Still didn't help. I was inclined to be on your side until I saw that. And you probably don't care about that, but then why are you posting?
 

Caiphus

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Maiev Shadowsong said:
What? What's your problem exactly? I noticed a trend. I pointed out the trend. The end.
I don't have a problem with it; you can write what you want. I was pointing out that it isn't smart to imply that people are disagreeing with you because they are male. That then tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Father Time said:
If the argument was "Rape is more likely to be a nasty trigger for people" instead of "Rape is worse than murder." How would you feel?

Because I'd be more inclined to believe the first, and less to believe the second.
 

Caiphus

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Maiev Shadowsong said:
I didn't imply anything. You might have inferred something, but that's not what I said. I noticed A was happening. I pointed out A. That's all.
Well, oof, okay. I don't know if there's any other implication to be taken from "it occurs to me that the majority of people disagreeing with me are male."

I suppose you could have been just going on a complete non-sequitur. Perhaps everyone disagreeing with you also has brown hair. Or is currently sitting down in a chair. We'll leave it at that then.
 

Something Amyss

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Rutskarn said:
Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"
The internet is so reliable you could almost set your watch to it.

...If you still have a watch.
 

Vrex360

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Well I'm glad they actually took the time to listen to feedback and actually considered the feelings of people who could have been affected by this in their lives and are working out a way to, hopefully, make it work better. It's certainly an improvement over those guys at penny arcade who opted to respond to a relatively small backlash with an obnoxious sarcasm laced insult which baited people into an actual hostile response and then sold merchandise relating to it specifically meant as a giant middle finger to the people who complained (in essence Penny Arcade sold t-shirts the unspoken goal of which being to mock rape victims). It's good to see that at least SOME people in the games industry are capable of admitting fault and actually looking at their work critically instead of leaping onto the knee jerk defensive and hostile tactics that so often plague responses like this.
So yeah, good on them.

As far as the idea of rape being in games well... no. I don't want that.

Simple fact is it's really easy to just shout 'hypocrisy' when games (and media in general) make entertainment out of killing but absolutely condemn rape but maybe people could benefit and take the time to think about WHY that is.
Why is it that EVERY SINGLE TIME a writer truly wants to make an unlikeable repulsive vile villain who the audience is expected to despise in totality and be almost physically sickened by their mere presence and know without any question that they are beyond any kind of redemption and the only thing that can fix them is a bullet, the creator will almost always make them a rapist?
We can chalk it down to simple hypocrisy but when this is a trend that has been going on for decades maybe we could actually look into that and seriously wonder why that might be.

There is a reason why rape is percieved differently to killing, normally I'd just say watch the Jimquisition episode on the topic but I'll just state my own take on the subject.
In my opinion we expect the villain to do evil stuff, we expect him to kill, steal or organize terror attacks or schemes and unless the story is specifically about it, rape is just something that goes beyond any kind of rationality and just enters the realm of unnecessary cruelty.
There are pragmatic reasons to do all the other things villains do in stories. Murder? People can get in your way or try to stop you. Theft? You may need the resources and stealing them is an easy way to do that. Torture? You need information and that's an easy way to do that. Arson? Blow up your enemies and send them a message.
But rape? Again unless it is 'that kind of a movie' (generally I hate 'that kind of a movie' by the way) it is just a layer of needless illogical cruelty. It doesn't aid in a villain's plan on any pragmatic level, it doesn't do anything that any other method couldn't accomplish. If you have your villain do that it implies that he (or sometimes she) is just an extra level of cruel. Using another person's body for their own sick pleasures and not for any kind of actual rational reason. If you have a villain do this it just sends the message that they are twisted and cruel right to their rotten cores and you cannot ask an audience to like a person who is like that. If a villain commits rape they are in essence consigning themselves to always being evil without redemption no matter what by the audience.
Similarly we'll tolerate a lot from our heroes and even our most brutal anti heroes but never rape. They can kill, they can commit arson, they can steal and they can torture but rape? Not a chance.

Just as it's not surprising that writers often use rape as a crutch to establish a villain as truly evil its just as common for writers to establish a hero as a good guy by having him (or her) save someone else from being raped. That's probably why 'saving someone in an alley' is so common in super hero movies, action movies and various others and especially common if we have a morally ambiguous anti-hero as our lead because it is an easy way to say 'as brutal and cold as he seems on the outside, this scenes he's still a good guy'.

Another thing is that while murder CAN be very personal and cruel it can also be incredibly in-personal. Soldier's killing one another on the battlefield I would never call murder, it's a war and almost a sort of combat arena. As Jim said it's 'equal opportunity'. In a match on Halo I could be killing any number of enemies on a perfect kill streak only to then get killed by someone else, it's a match on more or less even ground where anyone can kill anyone else because the balance of power isn't tilted towards one person over another. Now I haven't played hotline miami but from what I gather you're a crazy guy killing members of gangs and mobsters (I think, go easy on me if I'm wrong) and that's the difference between you killing them, no matter how brutally, and a guy raping a wounded woman bleeding out on the floor. THEY CAN FIGHT BACK, you are locked in a combat arena and they can just as easily kill you as you them.

Rape by contrast is ALWAYS personal, it is by definition a very intimate thing. It can be long and drawn out and the lasting effects can haunt a survivor for the rest of their lives. You can't make the act of rape in-personal, you just can't. It is very personal and very brutal, likewise you can't put a moral spin on it either. Like I said there isn't even a justified reason (in terms of sheer logic anyway) for a VILLAIN to do it, so to hell with even trying with a character the audience is expected to root for or at least identify with. You can put a moral spin on killing by being put into a 'kill or be killed' scenario but there's no such thing as a 'rape or be raped' counterpoint. Rape requires a victim, which means it requires someone unable to fight back and it turn it means it requires someone with the level of cruelty to do that to somebody. In my opinion you just cannot make light of a scenario like that.

That's why people can sort of shout 'fucking awesome' when the villain blows up a city of millions of people while cringe in sickness when another villain merely rapes one person. It's almost like a variant on the 'tragedy is when I cut my finger, comedy is when you fall into a hole and die'. An entire city dying IS technically worse than one rape but we are able to divorce ourselves from that reality because of how far removed from our reality it is, meanwhile, again, rape is intimate and personal and much easier to comprehend and be disturbed by.

Imagine if Loki randomly raped someone during his conquest of Earth in the Avengers, somehow I doubt he'd have been as popular then. Sure he unleashed an alien invasion on New York and killed god knows how many people but that's what supervillains are expected to do, rape is just an extra layer of needlessly cruel.

And sure there are games like GTA and Saints row where you can shoot civilians and it's sometimes played off as a laugh but bare in mind the mechanics that killing has going for it, the whole impersonal angle, and then also consider that killing can end in a matter of seconds. Gunshot, bang, dead. When we consider then the divorce from reality mentioned above we can actually make this sequence funny. Make it a big oversized gun, give the guy being shot a hilarious last line ("Oh fuck my donkey.") and shoot him and send him flying fifty feet away and he lands with a cartoon splat.
Bam, instant slapstick. The element of slapstick in a nutshell, cause and effect, someone suffers and it is snappy and quick. I just don't see how one could do a slapstick rape scene without it looking really, really bad.

So yeah if you want my honest opinion I'm not surprised people can handle seeing their 'hero' cut stab slice and shoot his way through god knows how many goons are are also trying to shoot him but get turned off by a scene of him then grabbing a helpless wounded young woman and starts violating her, and I don't think it is hypocritical AT ALL.

Rape and murder are two very different things percieved in two very different ways. Neither one is actually objectively 'better' or 'worse' and the use of one in one form of media doesn't prove the other should be used as well. It merely proves that of two bad crimes, we have found moral loopholes for murder that doesn't exist for rape and frankly I don't care if people think this means giving we're giving rape an unfair bad name because rape IS a bad thing and deserves to be condemned and I don't lose any sleep at night knowing that people do condemn it.

Now while I do think rape has it's place in the art as do all the darker parts of the human experience it needs to be handled with deft hands and tact and not the kind of sleazy marketing like we saw with Tomb Raider or just thrown in for shock value and if it turns out that's all this scene in Hotline Miami 2 turns out to be then I do not think anything has been lost artistically by having it removed. Right now we don't know enough about the context to judge but I a skeptical to say the least.

And look while we may say 'oh everyone knows rape is bad so what's the big deal' one should remember the Steubenville case. The town took the rapist's side, the victim was villified and harassed and the news media tried to make the two rapists into tragic victims. Somehow I don't see a mass killer getting the same kind of media treatment, and that right there might be the biggest distinction.
We all know what murder is, there is no ambiguity. If a guy goes and shoots a whole bunch of people for no reason people aren't going to try to fight for his freedom, they aren't going to try and make him look sympathetic on television, they aren't going to try and put all the blame on the people he killed and they aren't going to try to harass the victim's families into silence. And all of those things have happened in rape cases.

We know what murder is and unless we are mentally insane we are comfortable with that, with rape not so much. Most rapes are done by people the victim knows in their own life, on top of that a good portion of rapes go unreported because people are afraid of being socially shamed for it. Women fear being branded a slut, men fear being branded as weak. When a person is murdered people generally don't HIDE that fact because they aren't generally worried that people will mock them for it.

Also to consider is that while murder is unambiguous, you can say you killed someone in self defence but if you take a gun and shoot someone no matter what the context you still know you killed them, a lot of the time rapists either have successfully convinced themselves or geniuenly don't believe they have committed rape. The whole 'she was dressed as a whore', 'she lead me on', 'she totally wanted it' arguments more or less exist from this as does the 'she doesn't want to admit she's a slut so she's lying' approach. Because rape is harder to get someone arrested for than murder and given how hard it can be to define in contrast there are a lot of people who would have committed textbook rape but can comfortably convince themselves that they haven't. That's why the whole 'victim blaming' culture still exists.

Hell an example of this could once be found on this very website, people talked endlessly about whether or not hooking up with a seriously drunk girl could be considered 'rape' and, despicably, a really common argument was 'well they were being irresponsible and should live with the consequences' and apart from small numbers of people who were drowned out by all the dissenting voices no one seemed to bring up the obvious What about the sober person's responsibility to do the right thing in that circumstance? How come someone else being drunk and irresponsible meant the sober person could do whatever they wanted? That is the theory of victim blaming at it's core. I'm not responsible for what I do to you because YOU should have been more careless.

With that in mind, in my opinion, while this attitude is still prevalent I'd rather not see games make entertainment out of sexual assault.

But that's just my two cents as to why I think this is as it is.
 

Caiphus

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Father Time said:
To be perfectly frank, I don't know how many rape victims would actually be 'triggered' by this stuff. I haven't found a good source for even a ballpark amount.

But that's not important. So some players will be "triggered" by rape, why does that mean the scene needs to be removed when they can simply not play the game? We don't ban certain foods just because some people have deathly allergies to them (and don't try to tell me these triggers are worse than death). Some people are also going to be sickened by the excessive amounts of brutality and blood. Why do they matter less?
When you say the scene "needs to be removed", I'm not entirely sure what you mean. The devs themselves took it out of the game. Now, if they were forced to do so, by the Aussie government for example, I'd be more on your side. They also only took it out from the demo.

Trying to collect my thoughts:

On the side of 'They should have removed it':

- People who have been raped may be likely to get triggered over the demo. I also don't know the likelihood of it causing a trigger. I've never been raped. I have been sexually harassed rather badly at work, but that's not even close, really.

- If there's no context, it's unlikely to paint a good picture of your game.

- We're used to violence in games. Someone also knows what they're getting into when they buy hotline miami on the violence front. If we want to start going for rape, preferably do it in a mature, sensible way. It'll be difficult to do so in a demo.

- It might have painted the wrong picture of the game. From a marketing standpoint 'This game is about rape' isn't a good thing to have floating around before the game gets sold. Then again, controversy never hurt a game's sales.

'They shouldn't have removed it':

- It being in the demo probably actually serves as fair warning for people who might be triggered by this stuff to not buy the game.

- It's probably time for the medium to be thinking about maturely tackling the rape subject. (Although, like I said earlier, it would be rather difficult to do so in a demo.)

- The game is already super brutal, you are right.

- I can't stand horror games. They give me nightmares, partially thanks to a scary haunted house thing I went to when I was six, I think. Anyway, I don't play them, and I don't demand that horror elements be taken out of games. It would be silly for me to do so. (That said, someone playing Hotline Miami who might suffer a rape trigger won't know about it ahead of time. It's rather easy to stay away from horror games.) - this goes back to your point of 'why should violence/other triggers be less important?'

In any case the creators chose to remove it from the demo, just like they chose to put it in there in the first place. Can't really demand that they put it back in, while also telling them not to bow to pressure from consumers. That would be a bit hypocritical.


Thoughts?
 

Archer666

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I don't really see the need to remove it since it wasn't rape. It was a scene in a movie, so that would make it acting. If it was rape, then maybe it should have been altered. But I don't really see the need for it right now.

Personally, I think that this scene could be used as a way to show players that you are not a hero. I got the feeling that people playing HM didn't really think much of the killing they did. Even at the end when the music dies away, people would probably be like "Okay, I'm done. Lets go kill something else.". Such a scene set as an attempted rape really, really shows just what kind of character you are controlling. A sick, twisted person. A animal. This outrage, the feeling of being sick at playing this character, would hammer home that your character isn't "cool". At best, it would force to ask questions about what kind of person you are if you're playing this game, or... you know. "You like hurting people, don't you?"

Then again, this probably was a way for HM2 to get even more publicity. Any publicity is good publicity after all.