Zontar said:
Rangaman said:
And I'm still yet to see anyone give convincing reasons for said views.
So you haven't actually watch or read any of the videos or comments on why people don't like the movie to the point where even most people who liked it agree it wasn't particularly good. I'm serious about that on social media the numbers are something like 3:1 for those who liked the movie taking the stance it wasn't really that good but it was enjoyable when compared to those who actually think it's great (and this is something one has to remember is collectively the minority opinion given every metric of measuring audience reaction that isn't the highly unreliable "at the door" polls)
I have watched said videos and all I've gathered was that people either hate it for being, and I quote, "SJW crap" (which is an argument I will never take seriously); for not fulfilling their fan theories (which is entirely your own fault as far as I'm concerned) or for not being nostalgia trip (do I even need to say why I don't take these guys seriously). And if it's not one of those, they'll claim it has massive plot holes and is incoherent without actually providing any examples.
And for the record, I've seen far more people who love TLJ than people who hate it.
It's also worth remembering that Empire Strikes Back provoked the exact same reaction as The Last Jedi. Hell, without Return of the Jedi to put everything into context, ESB is a pretty terrible movie.
I honestly have no words. Whether it be how ESB is a great movie even in a void that's elevated within the context of its place in the franschise
No, it isn't. It doesn't actually introduce any of the recurring characters and conflicts well and ends with, like, a million loose ends and unresolved plot threads. It's great because we know about the movie before it that introduced said characters and the movie after it that tied up all of those loose ends.
compared to TLJ being a bad "turn off your brain and then you can actually enjoy it" flick that's made worst by its context within the franchise,
I dunno, I actively engage with movies and I liked it. Also, what do you mean "made worse by its context within the franchise"?
the fact that ESB was initially received poorly by critics and loved by fans while TLJ was received poorly by fans but loved by critics,
Yes, that's because planned trilogies were a new thing in the 80s (so critics didn't really understand how that movie would work and docked points for it leaving a bunch of unresolved threads) and most of the fans were kids who watched the first Star Wars. Whereas now planned trilogies are much more common and their structure (first movie set the stage, second raises the steaks, third delivers the awesome climax) is well known while a lot of the fans are cynical 30-somethings that hate everything that goes near their precious bloody childhood.
the fact that ESB had a coherent plot and lovable/relatable/understandable characters while TLJ was an incoherent mess of a plot with the characters who are likeable/relatable/understandable being limited to literally just Fin and Poe,
How is the plot incoherent? In fact it's actually pretty simple all things considered. And I like the new characters. Yeah Rey is no Luke Skywalker but for people who grew up with the OT, they were never going to exceed the OTs cast in any way (not with JJ Abrams at the helm anyway). Maybe you don't like the new characters but that strays into "my opinion is better than yours" territory, and quite frankly this thread is argumentative enough.
there's just so much wrong with this statement I don't even know where I could expand upon these things.
Which means you can't be arsed or you actually can't think of anything to write.