How do my fellow escapists feel about guns? (The real kind)

[Ashendarei]

Fair enough, and if I see an intelligent argument on here FOR guns, I'll back down, but so far the arguments for have been painfully flawed. The nigh-on religious love for guns some Americans have is, to be perfectly honest, disturbing. As somebody else said, the mere mention of revoking the right to bear arms in the US is met with such vitriol, I have to wonder what is so special about it. It's just bizarre. Why worship an object whose primary purpose is to kill?

1. Because our nation was founded on a bloody revolt. It kinda makes sense that the founding fathers of our nation would want to ensure that should the government take the same type of restrictive stance that led to us going rogue from England, the people can choose to defend themselves.

2. I own and carry (registered, licenced and 100% law-abiding) a Springfield Armory .40 XD. I do it for two main reasons, first for my own defense, and second for the defense of others around me.

Check out this link if you'd like a REALLY well written pro-gun statement. I pretty much forward this out when someone asks me why I choose to carry because it's written better then I could put it in words

http://www.reasonorforce.com/

 

[cjbos81]

well in my opinion, having the right to carry an assault rifle around in public just feels a litle, unnessecary. I also feel that the US should consider having tighter control on firearms.

Define "assault rifle".

well the first thing that comes to mind is an M-16, or other similar weapons

Full auto or "machine guns" including the M16 are illegal except under certain strict circumstances. What is allowed is the semi-auto civilian AR-15. The AR-15 is not an assault rifle as an assault rifle is primarily defined by its fully automatic capabilities. Though to the untrained eye, it does closely resemble the M16. They are two separate guns.

 

[erto101]

snip

Responsible citizens are those that have not proved otherwise. Handgun ownership in the US is restricted to anyone over the age of 21. Felony convictions or an order from a judge is all it takes to ban a person from buying a gun, as background checks are required before you can purchase one (aside from private sales in most states, but more on that later). Basically you can purchase and own a firearm in the US until you show that you shouldn't be able to.

You also have to understand that trying to show difference in gun violence alone as a reason for banning guns is a ridiculous point. Suppose there where no guns, and a nation was arguing that all knifes aside from small knifes used in the kitchen are to be banned, and they point to Pointystickistan that has no knifes, and starts talking about how much more knife violence there is in his country compared to the other county, but fails to point out that social factors contribute more to the different rates of total crime, and the reason they uses knifes in his country is because they are available. They still commit crime in Pointystickistan they just use their pointy sticks.

The US is pretty safe, even for a western country. The worst crime areas arise from a pretty bad socioeconomic barrier that still exists within this country. It especially affects minorities and recent immigrants into this country. The homicide rate in the US among inner city (and poorer) blacks is as high as 20 across the country (that is 20 murders per 100,000) while the average murder rate in the suburbs is less then the average homicide rate of Canada or the UK. While Canada counts some non violent confrontations in their violent crime statistics that the US doesn't it still doesn't fully account for the fact that Canada has over twice the violent crime rate as the US, I wrote an entire long thread post about the comparison to the UK. It is only when you start limiting the comparison to those crimes that use guns the US starts to look bad.

I bring up the different homicide rates among the suburbs and inner city areas for another reason as well. The average homicide rate across Europe happens to match the rate across the US (5.4). The size of Europe as a whole is a much closer comparison of size to the US then any individual country as well (490 million vs 310 million). What I am getting at: There are bad parts to the US just like anywhere else, and the US is huge, it's almost unfair to compare it to several small countries with populations around the size of the two largest population centers in the US (18 million around LA, and 20 million around New York City).

The reason I address gun violence only is due to the nature of the thread. "What do I think of guns?". I have only shared my point of view on the matter at hand. I'm sure we can agree that compared to, for example, some of Eastern Europe the US have very little in form of total violence. But that doesn't affect how I feel about guns. Therefore I account only for the gun violence, which will inevitable rise with easy access to guns.

And while you might feel I make a ridiculous point, I feel the same way when you compare guns and knives. The havoc a person, with mediocre skill at handling both weapons, can cause, will be considerably bigger with a gun.

As to who is allowed to carry a gun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the end it is up to the judge to decided if I can carry a gun or not? If so what kind of expertise does the judge have for him to make that judgment? His field of expertise would be the law. What is needed is a psychological profile of anyone wanting to own a gun. Of course not having a criminal background is important, but one might be a potential nutcase with a clean background.

USA has a federal government to enforce laws upon all of its states. Europe does not. Therefore it is, in my opinion anyway, more fair to compare USA to an individual country.

On an unrelated side note. In a few months my English teacher plans for us to work with guns/gun violence. Would it be possible for me to use some of your postings in my work? I might have to represent both sides of this case, and being as biased as I am it would be nice =)

 

[Rhiehn]

Guns should be regulated to some extent, but not illegal, though one might say guns are a detriment to society, guns don't kill people, psychopaths do, if someone wants to kill another person, they'll do it, guns have use for sport, hunting, self defense and collection. I believe it's perfectly acceptable to let people have guns with a mandatory safety test for a license.

 

[BonsaiK]

How do the rest of you feel about guns and regular law abiding citizens owning one or two?

I believe in gun ownership - but only for me. I think that I should have all the guns, and nobody else should have any. No offense but I don't trust you guys.

 

[probunk]

Normal, but potentially dangerous property. Shouldn't be any more regulated than hammers, baseball bats and steak knives (ideally, not at all, but because all governments know better that you do we have all sorts of gumble...grumble...grumble).

 

[tweedpol]

Come on guys, stop saying stuff about what the Founding Fathers wanted or did: you've managed to ignore quite a lot of what they wanted before! They wanted a secular democracy!

And honestly, does no one know any basic evolutionary theory/game theory? Criminals aren't all the same: do you really think the guy who breaks into your house to steal your tv wants to slip upstairs and kill you? How many break-ins do you think end in deaths? I assure you he knows how much more likely he is to be caught and sent to prison for the rest of his life if he kills someone. You start keeping guns in the house to defend against burglars and the only result is the burglars will start bringing guns - to protect themselves! And who do you think will be a more effective killing machine - a burglar well used to nocturnal mischief, or a jittery half asleep Dad, firing at shadows? How likely is it that little Sally might get caught in the crossfire instead?

And one side of the back and forth of the 'thought experiment' (you know who you are) sickens me: these worlds, like our world, are not places where people go around continually assessing whether or not they should kill everyone they meet on the street.

As a final thought: perhaps you do stop people with a history of mental instability from owning guns. But if they decided to go on a killing spree, would it be easier for them to buy a gun very illegally from the black market due to pesky gun control laws, or to go and steal it from the Hensons' [certified: sane] next door?

 

[bz316]

I personally do not care much for firearms. I respect the rights of others in regards to such weapons, but I think many take it too far. I have a number of friends who themselves own firearms and enjoy shooting for sport (some like hunting and some don't) and by and large they are responsible, law-abiding citizens who have not a likely will not cause harm to others. But I personally do not care for machines that exist for the sole purpose of exterminating life. I am myself a trained fighter and relatively skilled in knife-fighting, but do not want anything to do with such devices.

 

[hotacidbath]

well in my opinion, having the right to carry an assault rifle around in public just feels a litle, unnessecary. I also feel that the US should consider having tighter control on firearms.

I would like to point out that this picture was taken in Switzerland where every male is required to serve in the military (I believe they're considered militias) and remain in a reserve capacity until age 30, during which they are required to keep their service weapon. That service weapon is usually a SIG SG 550, an assault rifle. Everyone is taught to use and own a rifle responsibly and "police statistics for the year 2006 records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault." I have lived in America my entire life and the only time I have ever seen anyone with a weapon over their shoulder (myself included), was while hunting. Every other time, they are safely in their cases, unloaded and with the safety on. People here do not wander around the grocery store with "assault rifles" on their backs.

 

[Blemontea]

Nobody knows how to kill anyone anymore. With swords people killed with honor and saw who they killed when they kill them. Plus they didn't feel joy unless they were psychotic about killing something. Now people will brag about kills make fun of there dead and dream about becoming snipers. To me it seems wrong but from a war perspective it's the second coming of Christ. So if you wan to kill people In mass and not care as much then guns are good. If you are like me and rather see the story your endingthen guns aren't all great.

 

[Pyode]

I initially had no intention for getting involved with this thread, but I felt I needed to point some things out.

you do realize that your gun will never save your life?

Absolutely false. There are numerous documented cases of people defending them selves against muggers, burglars, rapists, and murderers with guns.

[link]http://www.nraila.org/armedcitizen/Default.aspx[/link]

Note: Select any State in the drop box towards the bottom of the page to get a list of news stories aggregated from papers and television broadcasts across that state.

I notice some people talking about how criminals would just get their guns from the black market, but the black market usually gets its guns by stealing them from the homes of gun owners anyway.

Also false.

[link]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html[/link]

Most of the criminals' guns come from the licensed gun dealers selling directly to the black market or otherwise not abiding by regulations. This is something that even most die-hard pro-gun advocates will agree needs to be stopped.

-snip-

yes he might still have attempted to kill her, but he wouldn't have caused nearly as much damage with knife. The crowd of people would overwhelm him. As for the car, well, maybe if he got going fast enough, he might have killed more people actually... but thats not the point, the point is that its usually a hell of a lot harder to murder without a gun.

That absolutely is the point. If cars can kill just as many people as a gun (and they do, cars account for far more deaths than guns), then by your own logic cars should be banned too.

Edit: forgot my other point - Earth to paranoid conspiracy theorists, this is a democratic country! When the government tries to ban fire arms, its because most people in the country want them banned!

And here is the main reason why I responded to your post.

Democracy only works as long as citizens remain properly informed. Sadly, that just doesn't happen. Lets take the current "War on Smoking" for example.

In the US there is a large movement to ban smoking in public (and in some extreme instances, ban it outright). In my home state of Florida, we have a massive propaganda campaign called "Tobacco Free Florida". Numerous times a day on all of the local tv and radio stations anti-smoking propaganda ads are run. At best, these "PSA's" twist the statistics and at worst they outright lie. And guess what. It is fucking illegal for the tobacco companies to defend themselves. ILLEGAL!

How are we supposed to have an informed citizenry when one side of the argument is legislated out of it's right to defend it's position?

 

[Bravo 21]

well in my opinion, having the right to carry an assault rifle around in public just feels a litle, unnessecary. I also feel that the US should consider having tighter control on firearms.

I would like to point out that this picture was taken in Switzerland where every male is required to serve in the military (I believe they're considered militias) and remain in a reserve capacity until age 30, during which they are required to keep their service weapon. That service weapon is usually a SIG SG 550, an assault rifle. Everyone is taught to use and own a rifle responsibly and "police statistics for the year 2006 records 34 killings or attempted killings involving firearms, compared to 69 cases involving bladed weapons and 16 cases of unarmed assault." I have lived in America my entire life and the only time I have ever seen anyone with a weapon over their shoulder (myself included), was while hunting. Every other time, they are safely in their cases, unloaded and with the safety on. People here do not wander around the grocery store with "assault rifles" on their backs.

Well, i have seen cases is which in display of their second amendment rights,americans went out in public with a weapon, which I have been informed, was actually an AR-15 (my apologies), just made me feel a litte uneasy. I think that this occured in Washington state.

 

[deadguynotyetburied]

If someone else wants a gun that's up to them. I think they're noisy and they kill people, so I tend to leave them alone. Historically, though, I agree with the authors of the US Constitution that every now and again it's a good idea if the people shoot all the idiots in charge and start over, hence support in theory the right of the populace to own guns.

 

[UltraParanoia]

For one, deranged people are deranged people. Blaming guns for violence is like blaming video games. The person is deranged, regardless of what they used to kill or play. A serial killer kills 50 people, and people blame the knife?

No, but in gun cases I blame the fact that America's lax gun laws mean a deranged person can even get within 10 feet of a firearm.

Lax gun laws my ass, that deranged person passed an FBI background check, if anything gets blamed, clearly it should be the FBI.

Nobody knows how to kill anyone anymore. With swords people killed with honor and saw who they killed when they kill them. Plus they didn't feel joy unless they were psychotic about killing something. Now people will brag about kills make fun of there dead and dream about becoming snipers. To me it seems wrong but from a war perspective it's the second coming of Christ. So if you wan to kill people In mass and not care as much then guns are good. If you are like me and rather see the story your endingthen guns aren't all great.

Jesus fucking christ.

 

[lazathor]

i like to look at them, and i would like to fire a 44 magnum some point in my life, i just don't think people should carry them. also, why am i a nerd for ''knowing all the guns on cod'' i knew about them before cod, just like i knew rolling stones ''sympathy for the devil'' before black ops