1) Mustachioed guy should walk into room wanting to fix the plumbing\airconditioning (he could be coming in to do some genenric building work)
2) Cue the music
3) Gordon Freeman doesn't say anything, Alyx isn't too happy tho
4) Alyx says 'Come on Gordon we've got to go!'
5) Gordon leaves 'with a little regret'
6) Gordon saves the world!
OT: Romances should be more in depth and shouldn't just be about the random flirts then oh wait controversial sex scene that depicts very little! No, you're right OP, it should be about establishing a relationship in the game with certain characters where you maybe then progress to having sex. But there should definitely be more than just a random hump n' dump.
I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE to hype a *shudder* Masato Kato game, but Xenogears showed the pre- and post-love making scenes of Fei and Elly, and I always thought it was tasteful and respectful (don't ask my opinion about the rest of the game). Basically, no real "sex scene"; just the stuff that happened before, followed by the morning (was it morning?) after.
It was one of the rare examples in Japanese storytelling where the protagonist and his chief love interest actually hook up DURING the story and not at the end/after, to boot.
Curse you Masato Kato for providing an example of where you did something right. But don't think I've forgotten about Sands of Destruction and what you did to the Chrono series. Oh, there will be... probably more complaining. >=(
________
Just to stir the pot a bit:
People saying "there shouldn't be sex in videogames" aren't stating opinions; they're making objective assertions that, when subjected to thoughtful scrutiny, turn out to be wrong.
Not everything is subjective, even in art (which games fall under). Not everything is opinion, and not every opinion is well-formed.
It depends. I personally dont want sex scenes in a game - dont think its necessary. But when I think of why I get no reason. They're useful and can be plot driving in films, so logically in a game with a plot they should have equal stay.
Maybe it's a mix of shyness and concern regarding media stone-throwing that stops devs. Most parents would shout if a game showed a sex scene, but if a film shows a woman topless theres less outcry...
At the moment, I think it is that... that it is uncomfortable and unfamiliar. It being uncomfortable and unfamiliar means that fewer devs are willing to risk true commitment with something, and will end up rather immature, childish, or not completely thought through (much like early inclusions of anything sex in movies, or anything where children are in part the target of the audience, like PG 13 movies. I've actually seen some PG movies handle sex better and more maturely than some more childish R movies or even PG 13 movies.) I like to think its because of one important difference. In film, it is often the case that we are shown or told the story. However, for games, there are different levels.
There are some where it is only entertainment, and there is no story. Like Tetris.
There are some where there is a story, but it is shown like in film specifically because it is either separate from or remotely related to the gameplay. Example... actually, a lot of flash games.
There are some where it is related but is railroaded (point and click adventures) or where the gameplay controls small, ultimately inconsequential elements of the story, like in Fahrenheit (or for the Americans, Indigo Prophecy), or the Call of Duty series. For these, while the gameplay decides inconsequential things, it can still be very immersive, depending on either how the controls are set up, or the subject matter (example, though you don't get to control anything really important in Call of Duty (often), because it is fast paced war, and for many people that really pulls them in.)
Then there are some that while point A is always the same, and point B is always the same, important story elements are put in the hands of the player, ones that change usually the tone or mood of the game, and can either be by player choice or by player challenge. Here, I'd like you to imagine one company and one person. Both specialize in games like this with player choice. One specializes in the player making the story, or tale, or... oh, what's the word.... The other has many different settings for their games, but almost all of them are a series of one type or another. The most famous probably has 4 installments now. If you'd like, you could try and guess, or you could try looking up on Wikipedia to see if you can find it out.
Anyway, the answers are Peter Molyneux of Fable, and Bioware.
As far as the player challenge part, there actually is a great series and a second game that are great for this: (No, I won't just give it to you, now really guess before you click.)
Left 4 Dead series, and Alien Swarm
since any one character falling makes it much more difficult (and of you're playing with only friends, it can really hit home.)
But then, there's the type of game where gameplay actually makes the story. These games are genuinely fewer, but all the same, I will leave you to think of your own ideas.
What game devs need to learn, or at least are trying to learn I think, is that each of these, if sex is included in any way, needs to be approached in a different way, and a lot of it ties to plot (if you read closely the examples for each type, how the plot ties to gameplay is very similar to presentation and possible reader interaction.) And it is precisely because the plot is handled differently in different games that sex must also be handled differently. Of course, this doesn't change that sex should also be handled maturely.
tzimize said:
Imo there are two games that have got it "right". And by right I dont mean perfect, just, good.
1: Witcher. The cards were sexy and nice, and without a doubt one of the most fun things I've collected in an rpg ever. EVER. It seems CD Project knew they were not going to be able to make the scenes themselves sexy, so they just faded out. Rather that than awful cartoon sex.
2: Mass Effect 2. With Tali. The cameras fade out before any actual action, and it was natural that she had so much clothes because of her biology. Also, it was funny/cute. Too many sex scenes forget that sex can be just that, funny. The dialogue and situation made me laugh, instead of being just cheesy.
I dont mind sex scenes being explicit, in fact I think I'd prefer an awful cartoon penis instead of the eternal dry humping of pg-13 games.
I agree on this though, I don't mind explict.
After all, from time to time I do play around with Artificial Girl 3.
But discussing sex in games is.. I think a lot of it depends on the characters themselves.
* Are the Characters mischevious?[footnote]Just for giggles, I'd personally end up here X3[/footnote]
- Then make it look playful with giggling, hugs and cuteness.
* Are the characters innocent goodie goods?
- Make it looks very romantic, very sensual and very loving.
* Are the characters jerks or otherwise, decisive?
- Make it look rougher, like one of them is taking command over the other and deciding it.
If you have a character who goes around and glares and in general, acts like a jerk - Would this character really giggle in bed?
That's my reasoning for this.
These two give good examples of how exactly sex should be handled maturely in games, either by working around technological limitations, or rating limitations maturely (again, think of inclusion of hints of sex in Disney movies) but, it also shows that sex can be used a different way. Sex does not have to specifically and only be used to show heavy, adrenaline driven passion. Awkwardness, humor, mischief, anger, jealousy, sorrow, romance, and even assholery are all human qualities, and when establishing characters as human characters its important that they have human characteristics, meaning that these qualities should also be reflected either to strengthen characters or show other sides of them. I challenge to the second, Zeithri, that while its important to have the nature of the characters' sex reflect the characters themselves, I think on the oneside that the lead up to it should also be handled maturely or at the least written off in a different way. for example, in Firefly (I know its not a game, but)
Here, sex between Wash and Zoe and their intimacy or any buildup to it is written off completely rather than developed specifically because at the beginning, they are married. In a game setup where you were playing as one or the other, a good dev would set up sex in this situation not to slowly get the player to develop feelings for the other before having sex, but instead use sex as a tool to show the level and type of intimacy between the two, much like in the TV series.
I secondly challenge that sex could be used to show more dimensions to a character, or turning an otherwise flat character into a foil, or even showing a change in a character. For an example of this, maybe the character that usually until now is absolutely the control freak, that can't handle not being in control of not only themselves, but also others, sees something that pushes them over the edge, and they suddenly break down, and when they go back to their bedroom, their lover is there to take control from them, provide them comfort, end it with much cuddling, what have you. Suddenly, this character who seems like an unfeeling absolute hardass, someone who honestly doesn't sound like a human character, becomes human. Or for something more cliche that wouldn't need to be shown actually in an explicit scene, something that could simply be implied, the typical shy gal/girl in public, freak in the sack. This could be shown rather simply from a line or two before or after the fact (Example, character other than the two "involved" saying, "By the way captain, nice to know you had fun, but keep it down next time.".) As far as examples, I've not played many like that, but feel free to add any you can think of.
In other words, in most cases, especially story-driven or story-creating games, I think including sex done properly and maturely, should be done, but it should be included only if appropriate, and if appropriate and properly handled, even if its explicit, it will be ok. I just also think that in a lot of examples, its been either immaturely handled, or the results end up more disappointing or funny than the handlers intended.
Meh. I don't really care, nothing two explicit for sure, for multiple reasons:
-It's a game, no matter what you do it won't look right.
-You don't want ESRB to throw a fit
-I honestly don't want to have to picture every protagonist I play naked.
And please please please no quick time events... or interactivity. It just seems wrong to me.
Mass effect 2 had it right. Make it short and sensual. A little interaction to the scene on my part would be nice too... or maybe just a cutscene, depends on the game.
But if you're gonna do a sex scene, show some skin too.
I'm kinda against the idea of interactive stuff like that. Sex scenes are great if you want to tell a story but as I believe the Extra Credits team pointed out, playing through an interactive one feels a little gratuitous.
But if you're asking for suggestions, what about:
Rhythm games. (after all, a sense of rhythm is necessary for the real-life act) Throw in a "sex mix" on the stereo (which could be classy or crass depending on the context) and you could have a unique game of XXX Hero going.
Timed Multiple Choice (like conversation in Alpha Protocol)- to give a vague feeling of control without making your action to explicitly analogous to what happens on screen and it's still possible to go horribly wrong
Regarding the OP's point, I can't really see much of a problem with having sex scenes themselves, they can be useful for story-telling just as they are in films, books, and so on. But I don't think we really need to see anything, I agree with some others in this thread who say it should be implied. If the sex is there in the game, whether interactive or in a cutscene, then we need to make sure the technology is actually able to handle it, otherwise we'll simply see more of what we get in Heavy Rain/Dragon Age/Mass Effect/etc... which frankly looks like a bit of a mess graphically speaking. Maybe in a few years time, when graphics technology is even better than it is now, and after we've passed the 'Uncanny Valley' stage, then we can start exploring ways of making sex scenes work in games. For now, it's good to have them, but better to keep them implied and off-screen. Plus, the parents can't complain then about their little 12-year-old seeing 'graphic carnal imagery' in games that are meant for ages 16 and up...
Agreed with this and others that said mostly the same stuff.
Until games (and gamers) can get more mature about the medium, as well as when the general public has a more lenient tendency towards games like what happened for films in the 60s/70s I think? Then games can start to explore sexuality/sex scenes as a theme or plot-device.
I disagree that plot should ALWAYS just enhance the gameplay. I think games like heavy rain (while Heavy Rain is not a great example, it had a lot of negative things, mostly game-related) that are driven mostly by the plot, where the game is just there to enhance the experience, is a great thing and should be pursued further. That being said, games that are the other way around, that are there for awesome gameplay and the story is just to tie stuff together, have their place too.
But yeah, when gamers and society in general get more mature about sex in general, and sex in games particularly (plus when the graphics engines become sophisticated enough to realistically portray sex scenes); this is when gaming can start to implement sex more frequently/with less "weirdness" from everyone involved.
Why do games have to be this deep learning experience? Fuck why can't they just be mindless fun?! I'm tired of people calling it "art" or "a medium for learning." Hell i just want to have fun, I don't want people shoving their opinions down my throat. Put sex in games and make it awesome.
Lots of interesting opinions flying around here. I also notice we seem to be having a few different discussions here, about whether sex should be in games at all, about how the mechanics of sex scenes in games should work, and about the relationship between sex, story, and character interaction.
So, should sex be in games at all? Yes. Sex is a part of the human experience, and games, as an art form, should examine that experience, as has every other medium before games. Actually, the Extra Credits guys said this better than I ever could before they got picked up by The Escapist, so I'll let them do the talking (you may have to sign into YouTube for this to play, since it's content-flagged):
Next, assuming there is sex in a game, how should it be handled? Well, I think that depends largely on the game's art style. A JRPG with anime cutscenes, for example, could easily use that route to show an explicit sex scene without it looking ridiculous. Likewise, if you're willing to pre-render the entire thing instead of using the game engine, that could work too. Inside the game engine, though, it's going to look ludicrous; the technology just isn't up to it yet. The sex scene from the first Mass Effect is about as far as you can go using current game engines. It also depends on a game's tone; an explicit sex scene would be completely tonally appropriate for a Duke Nukem game, while something like a Final Fantasy game is better suited to implication.
Lastly, sex should contribute in some way to the game's world. Not necessarily the story, but the world. There should be a reason the sex is there, even if it's just to say, "yes, this game contains all the things that can garner us an 'M' rating: violence, profanity, and sex." God of War is a good example; "gratuitous" pretty much defines the game, and even if the sex didn't make much sense in the context of the narrative, it matched perfectly with the over-the-top-machismo and testosterone-fueled tone of the game.
Also:
Housebroken Lunatic said:
conflictofinterests said:
It also depends on the characters, and how comfortable they are with their own sexualities, and what they perceive sexuality to be in themselves and in their partner. If you're going to be mature and believable about these scenes, you're going to have to take into account people who are horrified by genitals, people who can't help but giggle when those parts are mentioned, people who get aroused at the slighted provocation, people who take some persuasion... These are dynamics that aren't even TOUCHED upon in games that aren't dedicated entirely to romance/erotica (and as I've never played any that ARE dedicated to that, I can't vouch as to whether or not these dynamics are touched on there or not). Different people react to different propositions differently.
You know, that could be turned into a pretty interesting game mechanic.
I mean, consider games like Morrowind and Fallout: New Vegas, where (during character creation) can take these kind of semi-psychological tests to determine what kinds of skills would best suit your character (like if you answer that you would steal something and sneak away from a situation, then the game would recommend that you start out with high stealing/sneaking skills).
Now what if a game had that kind of test at the beginning but more elaborate, and that the test governed not only YOUR digital avatars skills and proficiencies but also the way certain characters in the game world will look like as well as how they will act and react towards you?
For instance, the game might ask what sexual orientation you have, and you input that you're a male heterosexual. Then further down the game shows you two pictures of two different women and ask you which one of them you find more attractive (of course the game really wants to know a specific detail of the two pictures, like what hair colour in the opposite sex you prefer, or which one has the better looking nose, cleavage etc. but you aren't being told that specific detail during the test). And that information is then used by the game to shape and alter the physical exterior of certain in-game female characters that you (as a person in real life) would respond to in specific ways.
The same thing could be done could probably be used for mannerisms of in-game characters. For instance, if you know that you're a sucker for sexually aggressive and downright "slutty" women, then certain characters that the game expects you to respond to positively will act that way. But if you input that you feel more drawn towards shy/awkward behaviour in the opposite sex, then the in-game characters will act like that instead.
Of course, the stage where the game gathers all this information has to be cleverly constructed as to insure that the questions aren't too obvious (i.e if the game downright asks you if you prefer blondes or red-heads, then the sense of immersion or what the games expects you to do won't be as interesting when a sultry red-head or blond shows up making "just the right" propositions that you could see coming a mile away). So a more elaborate and subtle set of questions has to be posed and having a few psychology professors as consultants when trying to design that test would probably help a long way.
But if done properly, wouldn't the experience be kind of awesome and tremendously PERSONAL to each and every player? I mean, not only do you shape your own in-game character the way you want, but the in-game world itself actually changes according to who YOU (the player) are as a person and in ways that you yourself probably can't really guess.
That sounds . . . phenomenally interesting, actually. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to implement--you're basically just mixing-and-matching various physical traits and personality archetypes. The hard part, as you pointed out, would be gauging the player preference while maintaining immersion. If you could get that down . . . damn, I'd certainly play it.
How? Please explain why you think this. It's a bit extreme or are you just trolling?http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-tEYNUrGRv8/TS2oETrnq3I/AAAAAAAAAEY/mECqRMELOcY/s1600/troll-face1.png&imgrefurl=http://starevents.pl/12.php%3Fq%3Dyou-mad-troll-face%26page%3D2&usg=__TLe275e7lx5amC6_4vdSk6x4qqM=&h=428&w=469&sz=93&hl=en&start=57&zoom=1&tbnid=P6zvpS7GDZ7yUM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=128&ei=kgWITeObFILLgQf50oC1DQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtroll%2Bface%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1264%26bih%3D851%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1
Put simply, There shouldn't be any.
To elaborate: There should not be the need for sex scenes in games. Sure, I can take the occasional boob in a game, and up-skirt shots, no problem. But when a game needs to put in sex scenes just to attract customers (why anyone would be attracted by it is beyond me) then something is seriously wrong!
I can't stress that enough, something is wrong!
Most of these games are, quite frankly, shit. And then instead of making the game atleast bearable by changing some aspects of it the developers take the oh, so easy shortcut by making some polygons do the nasties. And they end up with sales but no-one appreciating the actual game, just a bunch of teenies knocking their junk around.
The good games that put sex in-game, (to a certain extent Dragon Age can be counted as a good game so I will let that one fly and use it here) mostly RPG's do it to incorporate some kind of relationship spectrum (read Hentai Dating Sim). At least that's what they say.
The end product is nothing more than a Hentai Dating Sim. It's clumsy, easy to navigate, fast and over just as fast, and often locks up parts of the game if you don't do it when the planet's align under a parting blue moon and play your cards just like you would in an IRL commited relationship (HAH! Who am I kidding, that doesn't exist anymore, does it?).
So the conclusion I end up at is that the developers make sure to put it in at the last minute without testing because they are insecure about what they are doing. Then atleast someone will buy it even if it ends up being a mess.
No good game have the need for sex scenes, And I don't think they ever will have, I sure hope this is some kind of faddy "because everyone else does it"-thing that will soon blow over.
In terms of the on screen sex itself, I think it's better to just imply it ( like the Tali scene in ME2). Having cartoon characters naked would just be too awkward, because the animation wouldnt really capture all the etails to make it believable.
What I think is a bigger issue is what OP mentions about relationships in games. Romancing a character is fine, but wouldnt it be cooler to be able to on missions or quests with your characters "gf/bf" to get special dialogue or something?
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