How to Talk About Games #2
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Cory and/or Grey is/are going through some form of crisis and they're spouting inflammatory nonsense.Danceofmasks said:
Don't prod and pester them, it will pass.
Get well soon.
Au contraire, my frere.Grey Carter said:
You're generalizing and you know it.
I know you're right if we limit the range of submissions to people who were still swimming around as sperms or those that were barely there, destroying broken joysticks that were not even plugged in while their older siblings were playing games, hoping the little one would not find out.
I know you're very wrong when you allow me to broaden your demographic to the silent majority of people who have got shit to do these days, if they're still alive.
Gary Biasillo's title track to Target Renegade (C=64) is awesome. The game is not.
<youtube=ITWXylEkwPc>
Black Lamp was a rather dull, if not outright crap game. The music by Tim Follin was quite superb (C=64), breathing fresh air into people's expectations of what could be done with the chip that needed fondling in order to deliver great chiptunes. They were not called chiptunes back then, mind.
<youtube=HQFaUPA3He4>
Druid II: Enlightenment was an OK game, but it's been well forgotten these days, even though a lot of titles seem to call back to elements of it. The title track by David M. Hanlon has been covered many, many times. My personal favourite would be Reyn Ouwehands 2000 take on it as published on the Nexus 6581 album, which is also conveniently available on iTunes. More/some info and links here: http://www.remix64.com/track/reyn-ouwehand/enlightenment-druid-ii/
<youtube=8C3hwd_qHak>
Granted, these tracks hold more power over those that were exposed to them at a young age. Still, with more people having more watts and volume at their disposal, let me tell you that these tracks still easily grind into people's brains, blasting them away. Even before we get to talk about all the remixes (such as http://remix.kwed.org/) these tracks inspired, just run them on the stereo in your car or grant them free reign over your 800 watt home cinema speakers.
And then there's the fact that there's plenty of reasons why people still play C=64 music on organs, tesla coils or rewrite and expand the little ditties to be played by whole orchestras. So - please, with sugar on top, don't be a prick. Don't be that guy.
I hope you acknowledge that I limited my arguments to a tiny little share of the games available on one system of the 8-bit era. Don't get me started on Amiga, I'd have to resort to calling you unfavourable titles, such as fascist hipster punk, before I'd invite you over for a little session of fisticuffs, during which I'd want to stick my thumbs into your ears and scratch out your eyes.
Have a nice day.
Not sure that's entirely true.Zachary Amaranth said:
I agree that part of the affection many gamers have for the series is derived from their projecting of their own personalities onto the Freeman vessel, thus feeling as though Freeman's journey is their own. However, the reason that journey is so memorable is because of the characters, settings, and events the players experienced.
It's very likely the primary reason he is viewed as a "great character". That being: gamers subconsciously viewing him as themselves.
And, unless you're a masochist or something, why would you vote against yourself?
Hypocrisy. Isn't it a wonderful thing? Especially when the person engaging in it isn't even aware they're doing it.
Not to call anyone out but it's something that seems to happen quite often around here lately.
Sad to say even great sites like The Escapist aren't free of that kind of sensationalist journalism.
Absolutely right.
However, I would still argue that quite a few 8 and 16 bit soundtracks from 'back-in-the-day' were still very well composed pieces of music. Some even brilliant by todays standards.
It takes quite a bit of skill to compose a good piece of music. Properly writing each melody and orchestrating all the disparate sounds and instruments into a cohesive soundscape. However, I would say it takes an equal level of skill and craftsmanship to compose a catchy and compelling piece when your range of instruments and sounds are very limited.
For example, the soundtrack to Donkey Kong Country still holds up as a very well composed bit of game music -
So yes, I agree that "good within it's limitations" does not equate to "good overall". But at the same time, "having limitations" doesn't equate to "a lesser compared to higher complexity".
I love both orchestral arrangements and chiptunes.
If you look at the synth as just another musical instrument, it's pretty easy to enjoy orchestras on the same level as chiptunes.
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(Disclaimer: I wasn't exposed to video games until the mid 2000's, when chiptunes were far phased out. I don't have any nostalgia goggles in my inventory. I just like a variety of music styles.)
Regardless of all that, I enjoyed the comic. I seriously do wish Corvo of Dishonored would speak, because while I'm controlling his actions, I'm not really projecting myself onto him -- I've never had the sort of power fantasies many games are intended to satisfy -- I just want to experience his story.
If you look at the synth as just another musical instrument, it's pretty easy to enjoy orchestras on the same level as chiptunes.
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(Disclaimer: I wasn't exposed to video games until the mid 2000's, when chiptunes were far phased out. I don't have any nostalgia goggles in my inventory. I just like a variety of music styles.)
Regardless of all that, I enjoyed the comic. I seriously do wish Corvo of Dishonored would speak, because while I'm controlling his actions, I'm not really projecting myself onto him -- I've never had the sort of power fantasies many games are intended to satisfy -- I just want to experience his story.
I can buy that. Kinda like how the old folks at work sing the Duck tales song from time to time.Zachary Amaranth said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Thats a bit presumptuous no? I do listen to piano music and some player piano music and many types of music. And what do you mean by "average gamer"? Someone who just plays Call of Duty and WOW? I doubt those types of gamers would listen to chip tunes very much. I never bashed anyone for imprinting on a silent protagonist. My words were harsh in retrospect. I meant that being a "fan" of a "character" that was basically something that just represents the player was odd. They do not make the game the events do so its really fandom by association or character design not for the character themselves. And next time try not to trample me with your horse alright?
You telling me this isn't an amazing work of musical genius? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iknsyBj-OeQGrey Carter said:
You mention association as if the music wasn't part of the game anyway.Zachary Amaranth said:
In a rather solid perspective, in most cases, that is true; take the one core element of video games, which is game-play, and you could forget (or just go to options and turn down) the music. It's actually my dream for games to incorporate musical or rhythmic concepts into its interactions. But on the grounds that most developers seem to take, to add music simply to help with 'immersion', when it works, the game is exponentially better. Music (used in this way) has near zilch effect on the game-play, but it surely can bring out our emotions (which, while also not directly important to the game-play itself, sure is for the experience in general).
I am having Dragmire's experience, in that I cannot recall 8 or 16 bit games that are bad, but have good soundtracks, though HeadDriveHardScrew might be onto something.
I also can't buy the comparison between 'a bunch of musicians' and 'a programmer at a keyboard'. I can see the scenario for its time period and to how music is used in games, but it's not a given. What if that programmer was a musician as well? Good game or even not, if a programmer puts in the focus to make engaging music in a game, they earn their musician card, holding the same clout as one using classical instruments.
The thread is in a bit of a tizzy over the 16-bit music quip, I'll say because we're attributing the almighty 'good/bad' descriptor to what amounts to one of humanity's most important forms of expression (totally a novel idea!). I just can't see it as a solidly landed joke ; all genres become grating with too much listening. I personally can't stick with a genre forever; I listen to other types of music to cleanse my musical palate (and thus find love in varying attempts at music. 16-bit is no different).
"Phallacy"The Random One said:
On a more serious note, Cory and I were going to call it the Capcom fallacy.
Yes, because the video game soundtracks people keep bringing up were composed by programmers, not actual trained composers and musicians. I mean Nobuo Uematsu [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuo_Uematsu], Dave Wise [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wise_%28composer%29] and Yasunori Mitsuda [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasunori_Mitsuda]? Totally programmers.thebakedpotato said:
That couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that if they were bad games, people wouldn't remember them 2 decades later? Or that that the games people keep bringing up were all major releases from established publishers, meaning that they're far more likely to have the budget to hire an actual composer, rather than depending on "Bob the programmer that also plays the drums in his spare time"?Grey Carter said:
AAAARGH NOW I AM ANGRY ABOUT EVERYTHING AAAARGH
I'm going to go and throw knives at the lifesize model of Grey I had made just for this occasion.
I'm going to go and throw knives at the lifesize model of Grey I had made just for this occasion.
These arguments happen because people keep asking the wrong questions. Judging a game by it's narrative, is like judging a cake by the quality of the flour. Good narrative and good flour can help, but those elements are not by themselves the purpose of the cake and game.
I still think Alpha Centauri has the best narrative, even though it doesn't have one.
Actually I think if we remember a good story or good soundtrack from a game, the game did something wrong and failed to blend the elements properly. They need to support the show, not steal the spotlight.
I still think Alpha Centauri has the best narrative, even though it doesn't have one.
Actually I think if we remember a good story or good soundtrack from a game, the game did something wrong and failed to blend the elements properly. They need to support the show, not steal the spotlight.
On the ongoing argument of the quality of chiptunes in this thread after an offhanded comment about chiptunes by a comic creator...
From an academic standpoint, I can imagine that without certain Distort Filters being placed Chiptunes can come across as a sound without much of an Attribute. A plain Chiptune doesn't have any of the flaws in a note that a String instrument, a reed instrument or Brass instrument might have. and its these flaws that give the sound its Attributes.
If done right, this allows the Chiptune to either fit in more without sounding like "Noise", or to make it easier to hear most of the notes clearly, as well as giving it an other-worldly quality (albeit not a super natural one).
However, if done wrong, this can leave you with a track that could be Construed as "Empty" sounding. Which is often the case with "Downgraded" songs made to fit the Chiptune Infrastructure. Especially when they specify some archaic software specification like "8 bit" or "16 bit"... Keeping in mind, the tunes that do work under those specifications were specifically designed to cope with the limitations.
Of course, we're talking "Chiptune", not 8 bit or anything specific. Technically anything all the way up to full modern tech Specifications counts. Heck, it's technically plausible to make a 256 bit Chiptune or more. But the software to create such things is usually a lot more expensive. Nor does Chiptune have to be used exclusively, as it can be mixed with recorded analogue music or Digital Samples of instruments.
All that said, Chiptune is just another tool in the kit of a skilled composer. Its neither good nor bad, and if a tune is good or bad its on the Composer's hands, not the tool he or she used.
And I guess this makes the Entire Point...
...
... That specifying Chiptune in the comic was mildly unnecessary. It would have been sufficient just to say "Shitty Music" without blaming the tools, or the style.
From an academic standpoint, I can imagine that without certain Distort Filters being placed Chiptunes can come across as a sound without much of an Attribute. A plain Chiptune doesn't have any of the flaws in a note that a String instrument, a reed instrument or Brass instrument might have. and its these flaws that give the sound its Attributes.
If done right, this allows the Chiptune to either fit in more without sounding like "Noise", or to make it easier to hear most of the notes clearly, as well as giving it an other-worldly quality (albeit not a super natural one).
However, if done wrong, this can leave you with a track that could be Construed as "Empty" sounding. Which is often the case with "Downgraded" songs made to fit the Chiptune Infrastructure. Especially when they specify some archaic software specification like "8 bit" or "16 bit"... Keeping in mind, the tunes that do work under those specifications were specifically designed to cope with the limitations.
Of course, we're talking "Chiptune", not 8 bit or anything specific. Technically anything all the way up to full modern tech Specifications counts. Heck, it's technically plausible to make a 256 bit Chiptune or more. But the software to create such things is usually a lot more expensive. Nor does Chiptune have to be used exclusively, as it can be mixed with recorded analogue music or Digital Samples of instruments.
All that said, Chiptune is just another tool in the kit of a skilled composer. Its neither good nor bad, and if a tune is good or bad its on the Composer's hands, not the tool he or she used.
And I guess this makes the Entire Point...
...
... That specifying Chiptune in the comic was mildly unnecessary. It would have been sufficient just to say "Shitty Music" without blaming the tools, or the style.