How would you improve RPGs?

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Knight Templar

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Dec 29, 2007
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a nice leveal up system. no hidden +10% aim stuff. but the big prople with JRPG's is that when you make big choises it's through normal dialog. turn based systems are boring as mass effect prooved when compaired to KOTOR. but what a RPG really needs more than small battle gimicks, is choise. it doesnt matter if they solve all the small leveal up proplems and improve combat, because a RPG with no choise isn't a RPG. MMORPG's (is that right? ...never mind.) have this proplem very little choise apart from your players weapons. not that i dont like MMORPG's its just that they have no choise(because of no plot). if you dont have clear and big impact on the plot its not a RPG. thats why bioshock just makes it under the door. i played FF X and my freind did likewise and we got diffrent storys. but we had no idear how it happend. a good example of a good RPG is baldures gate. it had massive story, even the side quests had choise. it always ended the same but who was there and how you made it were all up to you. i'm staring to rant so i'll just sum it up-give a goood story and lots of choise, we might even overlook small tech proplems in favor of great story

It's always good to make it clear when we change somthing. this is ok:
jane- "i wana fight!"
jhon- "yes"

and because you said yes insted of no she dies :(
BUT this is not:
Alex- "do you like tea?"
Bobo- "yes i do"
Alex- "WAR!!!"
 

Blayze

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Dec 19, 2007
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I'm of two minds here. Half of me is saying "Mini-games may prove entertaining" (In the sense of, say, that mog battle near the start of FF3/6, Fort Condor or the motorcycle scene in FF7), but the other half is saying "Mini-games can die in a fire." (In the sense of, say, Simon bloody Says for damn near *everything* or practically every DS game released these days)

It's a tricky situation. I suppose while I don't mind mini-games, they should not only take up a suitably small portion of the potential game content, but they should also be *optional*. That way, those of us who always prove to be entirely cack-handed at one or more of them can rest assured that we won't be punished for not being able to hit twenty targets in ten seconds or whatever the challenge is.

I remmeber skills raising with use as far back as Secret of Mana and Revenant, and stats doing the same from, say, Dungeon Siege.

Edit: Aye, Knight. As much as you tried to sweet-talk somebody in Icewind Dale, if you were destined to fight them then that was it. In Planescape: Torment, you could lie, bluff or threaten your way out of situations. It didn't always work, but them's the breaks.
 

end_boss

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Jan 4, 2008
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Okay, so one of my big beefs with the JRPG genre is that I find RPG to be a misnomer. Although I've never played the pen-and-paper RPGs, I've always wanted to. And what appealed to me about them were the fact that you created your own character exactly how you wanted to, you played the game how your character would, and you could really feel like you're growing with your character's experience. That's what I consider a role-playing game. You play the role of your character.

In JRPGs, I don't get to define my own character. JRPGs are role-playing games insofar as some designer created a role that you will spend the next 60+ hours of your life playing (30+ of those being cutscenes). And the worst part is, these characters that I have to play, I don't often actually like.

FFXII finally made the leap into doing away with random battles. That's great. It only took them about 13 years after Darksun, but, y'know. And speaking of the battle systems in JRPGs, I tend to find that early on in the games, y'know, the parts of the game that might or might not inspire me to continue playing them, the battle systems aren't based on any skill or stats, but moreso about how many healing potions you have on you at the time of battle. Then, once you get past that phase and are actually able to kill enemies at will, I find the whole process tedious and disruptive to the game's pace.

I've really tried to like JRPGs, especially since I've only really played Phantasy Star II on the Genesis and really enjoyed it because it was something new and different for me, as well as Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger, which I admit are great despite their genres. So when I bought my PS2, one of the first games I bought for it was Suikoden III. It was highly rated, well respected, etc etc, but I actually almost fell asleep while playing it (impressive, since I'm an insomniac), and when I died and found out that I had to watch an unskippable 10-minute cutscene all over again, I turned it off, deleted the save file from my memory card, then traded it in as partial payment towards another game. The process was so unceremonious that I don't even remember which game it was that I traded it in for.

Okay, so on to the constructive side of the criticism. As I've already alluded to, I find that the point of RPGs is to play the game the way you want to, with a character of your own design. Elaborate is always nice, but it doesn't have to be; if you've played the Quest for Glory series and realize that it's my favourite game series of all time, you can see how simple and stripped down an RPG can be and still be a rewarding experience. In fact, the character design in games like QFG, Darksun and Fallout were excellent because of their simplicity, and there are very few and rare cases when I have the tolerance to spend an hour before I actually get to play the game. But this is becoming one of those things that appeals to hardcore gamers. The kind who like spending hours on designing their character's stubble patterns. The kind who criticizes games for not being hard enough. The kind who feels insulted for playing a game with less than 80 hours minus side quests.

Personally, I like a game where I can finish it in a couple days, but end up spending 80 hours at it BY CHOICE. Hey guys, remember that thing called replay value? A lot of the games I grew up with, I could finish them in a day. Once I become fluent with them, sometimes in a matter of hours, or in the case of Space Quest 3, about 45 minutes. But I spent years of my life playing these games because they were fun, addictive, and left me wanting more, even if it just meant playing the same game over and over.

Also, more RPGs need to have throwing daggers that are actually an effective weapon, rather than a means by which to slightly annoy level 1 rabid monkeys.
 

GregorV

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Aug 22, 2006
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I only ever played two RPGs, namely KotOR and now Mass Effect, so I can only talk about those.

Even if I never actually played any tabletop RPGs, it is clear that the Bioware games are moving away from the rules of that genre. A PC can provide a very different environment, controls and feedback so it is only natural that the gameplay can be enhanced by actually suiting it better to the platform. While turn based combat has its own merits, basing it on random outcomes is really just a leftover from the tabletop games and does not make much sense on a platform with good processing power where more complex combat systems can be resolved with more player involvement without added complexity for the player. It is not certain whether Mass Effect actually succeeds at that, but it is a step in the right direction.

Apart from the combat system, another thing that needs to be revised is leveling up and inventory tinkering. RPGs are great at storytelling, but the almost constant need to decide which skills to add some arbitrary points to is a great way to break that illusion. A much more natural way would be to simply improve the skills in those areas that one uses, and to obtain new abilities by actually learning about them within the context of a game (e.g. being trained in using new force powers, Dagobah style).

RPGs took over as the leaders in dialogue and storytelling from adventure games; I would therefore also personally favour more puzzles to be present.

All in all, I think RPGs are great storytelling machines so most focus should be towards not breaking the illusion too much. The Mass Effect conversation wheel is a great step in this direction, and I will be looking forward to more innovation of that sort.
 

Iori Branford

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Jan 4, 2008
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RPGs on all sides of the planet took a turn for the shitter around the late 90s.

I wouldn't exactly fault Square, Bioware, or Bethesda, nor were FF7, Baldur's, or Morrowind particularly bad games; it's the precedent set by such games and the audience who worships them that helped halt my RPG career. Now you have the CRPGs wanting to be FPSes and RTSes and the JRPGs wanting to be some FF or another with some weak gimmick(s) tacked on.

Trouble is, I don't know how to convince the retarded majority of RPG players to let the poor genre out into the fresh air, because almost every remotely good idea I could offer to improve it is marketing and fanboy anathema, wherever the marketers and fanboys are from.

A return to grid-based combat, or some other combat requiring some degree of tactical intellect while giving you time to stop and think and actually see every major combat event? "Too complicated." "Too slow." "Too unrealistic." Excuse me for not realizing that RPGs are supposed to be spoon-deep twitch games.

Stories of other genres, like crime thriller or sitcom? "Too unfamiliar." "Too episodic." "Too mundane." "Clashes with the setting and gameplay." Clashes with your giant stiffy for teen anime and/or Tolkien, more like.

More varied and interesting characters and settings? Say, a woman who can equip between two and four swords and is into ancient history and tech, but lives in a medieval future Earth so "ancient" is actually our present day? "Not worth the time/money." Sure, if your idea of money well earned is the profits from Roleplaying Rehash 500 on a budget of that much.

Give non-fighter classes a turn as main characters? "Boring." "Too hard." Maybe, Mr. Designer can make it easy and fun, then? Eh?

Different approaches to enemy encounters, like sneaking past, sniping, setting traps? Actually most people would find this pretty cool, I guess. Oh wait, I know: "Cheap." "Where's the action?" "I can just fight 'em already so why bother?"

Short punchy story sequences? "There goes half the game time." No, there goes half the staring-at-the-screen-not-doing-anything time, you twit.
 

akatsukix

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Dec 10, 2007
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The main problem are the cliches:

1. You are an elite solider with no skills and apparently you get a pea shooter to save the universe.

2. You can slaughter hundreds in side missions to get a little bit of loot without being thrown in jail for life

3. Good equipment is stored all over the place.

The other thing I kind of hate is the length. These games are just getting too long and too slow. Blue Dragon was the most boring hell I had ever experienced. Every single thing was slow and designed to make you quit. I actually thought Mass Effect was definitely going the right way, the combat is action based without just being reflexes, the interaction and dialogue worked well and wasn't too tedious.

The real problem is that they need to make gameplay have a lot more consequences. If I slaughter an innocent, it probably should end the game or at least make things a lot more difficult. If I commit thefts to gain stuff, then people should become less trusting and not be willing to sell me stuff (especially if I have been caught). Choosing to be good should be more difficult in that I get less stuff and can't do evil missions for XP grinding, and there should NOT be gifts to make up for it (e.g. Bioshock where is makes no difference whether you are good or bad really). Also there should always be three endings: the good, the evil, and the middle ending, and to get the good ending should be damn hard.
 
Nov 15, 2007
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Ah, JRPGs. They essentially haven't changed since the first Final Fantasy game aside from playing around with different kinds of turn based combat, and becoming prettier. They are the very definition of stagnation, but since they keep selling I suppose nobody wants to bother fixing what doesn't appear to be broken. There's nothing really wrong with them. Some people just don't enjoy the genre. I do find it amusing that most of the conventions of the JRPG are based on technology limitations that no longer apply, but the formula still seems to work.

I don't play JRPGs anymore, but I don't think fiddling with their formula is going to cause any revelatory improvements simply because then entire genre is so formulaic.
 

romitelli

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Jan 2, 2008
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The Irrelevant Gamer said:
They are the very definition of stagnation
I have to disagree. The real problem with JRPGs is that they follow a somewhat linear and fixed format, appraised by psychotically conservative japanese gamers. That doesn't mean, however, that japanese gamemakers stopped trying. FFXII is the perfect example of such efforts, where the traditional turn-based battles were subbed by a different - and much better - real time, western-esque system. Even the cinematic feel to the game was downtoned, leading to a hands-on gameplay that newcomers loved and hardcore fans despised, arguing that such changes reduced the depth of the story.

The truth is that, like Adventure games at the end of the 90s, RPGs have hit a wall they seem to be having troble surpassing. Gamers now look for an experience that mostly action games are delivering, a world in which free will and non-linearity are possible. MMORPGs have understood this, but the more conservative, single-player series have been slow to respond.

I don't think I would change something in any specific game, let alone a whole series. I would try to construct a rpg game that swerved as much as possible from the consolidated and overworked characteristics that seem to make every role-playing game somewhat similar to the next.
 

Sanguinans Sabulum

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Sep 13, 2007
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Perhaps I'm just sheltered American who only sees the games good enough to be translated and sent to America, but I never found myself playing a JRPG and going, "I hate every second of this" like some people seem to be. One of my favorite RPGS of all time is Chrono Cross, because the storyline was, in my opinion better than western rpgs, everything WAS fantasized, and the characters were interesting. The converse of the angsty teenager in JRPGS is the gritty, tough, middle-aged man of western RPGS, and both are boring as hell. The Witcher was fun because of the choices it allowed you, but the story was blah, the main character was a dick, and the gratuitous sex felt forced.

Also, I LIKE levels. I fucking hate playing "RPGS" where there's no clear reward for the stuff I'm killing. And customizing and min/maxing heroes is fun, not boring as some poeple mentioned. I loved Baldur's Gate and the JRPG-ish Final Fantasy Tactics or Fire Emblem because they allowed for tinkering and plenty of strategy in character making/party formation. Watching my level 10 Swordsman become a Holy Paladin is fun to me.

So, way to make JRPGS better? Give them the hero customization of western RPGS, and throw in more choice. Ways not to make them better? Getting rid of the story/artwork/anime influences. If I want realism, I'll go outside thank you very much.
 

romitelli

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Jan 2, 2008
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Sanguinans Sabulum said:
and the JRPG-ish Final Fantasy Tactics
If not for the horrible translation, FFT would be perfect.

(I heard they fixed that in the PSP port, but I'm not buying one just to find out)
 

blackadvent

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Nov 16, 2007
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Onmi said:
i found 1 game and 1 game Only that properly did a moral Choice System

Shadow the Hedgehog
Okay, there's the ONE thing that Shadow the Hedgehog did kinda right. But two problems here:

Shadow the Hedgehog ain't a RPG. It's an action-adventure game, and not a very good one at that.

The 'real' ending, which required you to beat the game like, 10 times to see all of the endings (I am DEAD serious).

That, and I hate the game for ruining my favorite childhood franchise. But beside that, I'll agree- the multiple endings allowed for a more fluid storyline that many games don't see.

And yes, Golden Sun rocks. Perfect example of a RPG done right (can't remember if Camelot is a Western developer or Japanese...)
 

Knight Templar

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Dec 29, 2007
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i cant find it so i'll just say : i am replying to the guy/lady/fishmonster/zombie ...sorry got of track there for a moment. anyway the guy who said three endings 1-good 2-bad 3-middle ground. Thats all well and good but how about more? why not make it the ending are neather good nor bad but diffrent. for instance Dues ex IWAR diddent have "bad" or "good" just people who wanted this and people who wanted that. a good and bad ending would be a good thing but also more. for instance how about 6 diffrent ending 1-good 2-bad 3-middle 4this guy who says he will rule the world but in a nice way 5-this guy who tried to use you because he says 4 is bad and 6-miss "i cant think of a 6th faction so do it yourself.

a good way to get rid of leveing up for people who don't like it is- you use this spell then you when you reach the next level get a upgrade for it or better aim with shotguns or greater flosing strength or whatever. it would need to show you this and tell you when you've levealed up just for the people who like the old leveal up.

P.S. don't make fun of Dues ex 2 it's my fave game. stop laughing
 

Pwnage_Incarnate

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Jan 5, 2008
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How you make them better really depends on the sub-genre of RPG. (for example, JRPG is a sub-genre of RPG)
You really can't make Golden Sun any better, even though it has everything I hate about JRPG's.

Here's a good example of character improvement without levels: Megaman Battle Network Series. MM:BN3 is the only one I've played all the way through, so I'll comment on that one. Rather than going up a level, throughout the game you found items that increased your HP, better weapons, a "NaviCust" , which could be used to customize MM with great detail, and finally various "styles" which you gained based on your playing style. For example, if you use MM's buster alot, you get a style which makes your buster a vicious machine gun of slaughtering doom, and if you use lots of healing stuff, you get the ability to block & reflect damage. By the time I got the the final boss, I never once got a "level up!" notice, and yet I was significantly and noticeably more powerful than at the start. It even got the the point where I was winning most random battles in less than one second. Even though MM:BN had definite skill and power progression, how well you did relied strongly on the skill as a player. The final boss had *SPOILER* 2000 HP (almost 4 times mine) and a regenerating mass of cyber-flesh I had to blast through before actually hurting him. Couple this with numerous 100+ damage attacks, my paltry 580 HP wasn't going to cut in most RPG's,*/spoiler* but my skill as a player (and a finely-tuned NaviCust built specifically for my style of combat)and my weapon choices allowed me to win despite my fighting style was not optimal for this boss. The devs didn't force me to fight a certain way in order to win. I could have gone with a 1500+HP tank who could take & give with the best of them, or my "why-won't-you-stand-still-so-I-can-hit-you" guy who waits for the opportune moment and drops single blows that would insta-kill himself, or a glitched out weirdo who enters every fight with random plusses & minuses (yes, there is a style that does that)

I think that the MM:BN style of "leveling-up" (if you will) is exactly what most of you on the forum seem to be asking for: primarily skill-based, but with noticeable power progression and customization options that don't take an hour to work with before playing. Also, you are NOT forced into one combat type.
The storyline and character development is as linear as any JRPG, but it's the power progression system I'm admiring, not everything else.
 

Carbon016

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Nov 13, 2007
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Never make another fantasy RPG again. Everyone complains about the massive amount of WWII shooters covering the same ground yet the latest "fight orcs as elves/humans/dwarves" release is usually heralded with fanfare.
 

TheTakenOne

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Dec 24, 2007
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I'm pleasantly surprised by the amount of love for Golden Sun here. It still ranks as one of my favorite RPGs and one of my favorite Game Boy Advance games, though it might have been received more favorably by me because it was all I had for entertainment after a hurricane a few years ago and I'd have accepted a pair of squirrels fighting as suitable entertainment.

Myself, I personally enjoy RPGs with some degree of strategy element like Final Fantasy Tactics and Fire Emblem, because they do demand a bit more thought when planning your next move and that does seem like the sort of thing an RPG fan would love, so incorporating a hint of that into an RPG might make the game more favorably received. But I'm just speaking for myself here, I have no idea what people like or dislike.

On the other hand, I know I'm not the only one around who enjoys strategy/RPG's and would love to see a game that perfectly mixes both into a single game. Right?
 

Knight Templar

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Carbon016 said:
Never make another fantasy RPG again. Everyone complains about the massive amount of WWII shooters covering the same ground yet the latest "fight orcs as elves/humans/dwarves" release is usually heralded with fanfare.
but then where will the jokes about sexy elves and teenages go?
Oh I know that would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_races_in_Mass_Effect#Asari