How would you improve RPGs?

[Shinigami214]

Reading through these posts, I am struck at how many are missing the point of RPG's entirely.

Role-Playing Games are supposed to be just that: Role-Playing. To me, JRPG's aren't even RPG's, they are more like a complex adventure game because the player simply controls a pre-determined character with pre-determined motivations and a pre-determined history and runs along a pre-determined storyline with very little variations along the way. Its like reading a book where turning the page is replaced with killing random monsters and gaining XP to distribute stats and develop your pre-determined character's skills.

Granted that video games can never breach that sort of thing entirely since they are limited by thier very nature as a finished product, but by gods they can do far better than that.

Examples like Deus Ex, PLanescape Torment and Fallout 1 & 2 come to mind, where the very world you are playing in changes and responds to the choices that the player makes, not to mention that the character one is playing can actually develop a distinct character and depth that doesn't depend from the plot, but from the player him or herself. The linearity of the story line is as subtle as possible, the player is not led by the hand, and the player is free to explore the game at his or her own pace, making good or bad choices as he or she sees fit. In Fallout 2 you could even 'break' the game if you wanted. The freedom to choose comes with the freedom to either enjoy or suffer the consequences.

Granted that the only experience I have with these so called JRPG's is Final Fantasy 7, but from what I've read, none of the other JRPG's differ much in thier basic concept, merely on various points of gameplay.

EMO like characters, bad plots, random combats, XP grinds and the like are all simply design & gameplay issues. What's truly wrong with JRPG's in my opinion is that they fail to be what they are supposed to be: i.e. Role Playing Games in the first place.

 

[Seyon]

My pet peeve with RPGs (especially jRPGS) these days is this: All of the cool things in the story are done by other people. All of the interesting choices, tactics, and combat are typically handled in exposition or in cut scenes. We as the players are reduced to the role of sidekick.

Think of FF12, Baltier should have been the main story, as Vaan's point of view is dull. His story is minor. But Baltier and his moral choices are things we cannot influence.

In jRPGs all we do is walk from point A to B to have a story told to us. There is no choice at all, except in the way you have to defeat the generic monsters on the way. Western RPGs (Morrowind, KOTOR, Fallout, etc.) handle this much better--your choices matter--but there aren't enough of them.

Also:

1. Nonlinear story.
2. Moral choices beyond Schoolboy and Utter Bastard would be nice.
3. Adult protagonists with adult choices.
4. Sex. The median age of gamers is 29. We can handle it.
5. Stop the grinding.
6. More choice in the nature of the protagonist: male/female, straight/gay, old/young, etc.
7. Different settings.
8. Let us make interesting choices. Why can't I use my uber-summons to open that locked door?
9. No more maps on rails.

Mass Effect does a lot of this, and is lauded for it. I just want to see more games like it.

I agree with you, more games like Mass Effect.

Personally I'd like to see RPG's gone, why play a Role, why can't you make "insert your name" put him in the game, open a shop, see it robbed and beg a random NPC to fix your life... I'd want to do that for hours...

 

[blackadvent]

but seriously where you pulling out a random number or did you seriously grind for 50 hours before the final boss

I took a random number. Exaggeration, but I think other people made the same point I tried to and better- level grinding to beat a story boss is pretty lame.

 

[Alan Au]

1. Add co-op.
2. Get rid of hit-point-based combat systems.
3. Differentiate between "evil" and "petty."

- Alan

 

[TSED]

7) Bonus dungeons, and lots of them. The Hall of Totally Unrelated To The Plot Protagonist Deaths. The Mountain Maze of Magical Mace-Mashing Minotaurs. There can be very valid reasons to go in there, but throw in dungeons that you can go throw just because you WANT to. Of course there should be a suitable reward, but don't make it a 'must have' reward in all of them. The best weapon in the game? No where near there. A pretty decent weapon? Eh, sure, but don't make the dungeon TOO long. Character development that is unneeded and may or may not change future events? Sure! Be creative.

Something Final Fantasy does fantastically - the examples of which spring to mind are Final Fantasies 8 and 10. In 8, after you possess the Ragnarok, you are free to go anywhere and the game actually compels you into that sort of activity by placing lots and lots of bonuses; which were really previously inaccessible and go gain the goodies. The abandoned research centre in the far corner of the world with two of the most powerful summons in the entire game? You got it, but you have to beat some of the hardest enemies first. Final Fantasy 10 repeats this successfully in the last quarter of the game. Return to Baaj Temple, anyone? The Magus Sisters subquests? Omega Ruins? All of these places have their unique characters and history; making heck, the world bigger and more immersing.

You said it yourself - for the best stuff in the game. Why can't there be unrelated dungeons where there's only really good stuff, not the best stuff? Or, if it is the best stuff, make alternate versions of it (ie this sword is slower and hits harder and equals to the same damage output comparitively). I do agree though, the FF's are the best for that (as there's reason to go in there, as opposed to just another dwarven ruin in Morrowind).

1) More than one 'main quest'. You know how awesome that'd be? "Oh wow, I just finished this amazingly epic story line. It took me weeks and I loved every second of it. I hope they make a sequel or expansion pack to thi-... WAIT, THERE'S MORE? ALREADY IN THE GAME?!" It shouldn't be too hard. Just make sure the stories are suitably different. A basic example and I hope they don't take my idea for this (as it's shallow and undeveloped) would be: 1) A journey of self-discovery. 2) Cliche Quest - go save the world! 3) Cliche Quest 2 - Go get the girl! 4) Fiery tale of revenge for past wrongs! 5) UNepic quest; stop the organized crime from taking over the city. Etc. Maybe even make some of the quests lead into each other, but if that's the case make them steerable from any of the assorted originally available quests. What I mean is, say, the proverbial girl who gets kidnapped could have been kidnapped in either the Fiery Tale of Revenge or the Organized Crime Stopping. And that Fiery Tale of Revenge could have come from the Quest To Save The World or the Crime Stopping, or even from Saving The Girl. The stories are there; but how they blend into each other will be different for every player.

GTA: San Andreas springs to mind at this. Everyone remember the sidequest about Woozie's casino heist at the end of the game? It wasn't necessary that the player completed it, but the missions were unique and the characters involved were very entertaining. In fact, I found this whole part of the game more fascinating than parts of the main story. RockStar have, remarkably, proven that this sort of alternative, time-wasting but enjoyable aspect of a game can be done. And can be done well.

That's not an RPG, though. Heh. What I mean, however, are ending cinematics, the credits, whole shebang - for multiple stories in the same game. And there'd be different meaning depending on how you do the quests. Let's take that Fiery Tale of Revenge. Perhaps your companion fell in love with the same girl, but she went for your character. So he gets disillusioned, and eventually leaves - to plot his revenge. Or maybe he was left for dead in a climatic flee scene while saving the world... Or maybe he was in on the crime ring you busted... There's a lot of different ways to slight a guy, really. The revenge feels different, with different motivations.

0) I thought up another one. Remember Diablo being so proud of those randomly generated levels? Why not bring that tech back for the world building? Sure, important / setting dependent can be hand-made. The climatic end-battle settings, for example. A particularly famous street in a big city. But those slums? It'd make an incredibly believable world where you walk in to the slums of the city and they're haphazard, but all extremely detailed. HUGE slums, I'll add, as cities in RPGs are always, always, always unbelievably small. Vivec in Morrowind should be the size of a town (less confusingly so, though) not 'the hugest city in video game history'. You don't really want to make 'fifteen square miles of slums' so just let the random map generator do that. No; the map would stay the same forever. But the next game you make, totally different. The forest? Trees, wildlife, banks, clearings, all totally different. The technology's there, I'm sure. If it isn't, why not? Go make it! Seriously!

Dark Cloud did this with its dungeons, too. But as I recall, GameFaqs were inundated with whining from the consoletards about how the randomly-generated levels meant that they couldn't really get a proper walkthrough to lead them by the neck through the entire game because of the uniqueness of every experience. Still, they managed to pull out a sequel so obviously there weren't that many complaints. Personally I found the whole thing had no affect on the game overall.

I've never heard of this game before. Interesting. And, ughhh, I hate those whiny must-have-a-walk-through players. If it's such a problem, put a walkthrough in-game (I remember Might & Magic 4 + 5 had an "Ask Mr. Wizard" button on the main menu, and clicking it would sap every cent you have but save your arse if you found yourself trapped in an unescapable labyrinth of death-in-every-direction. Building on that (maybe every time you use his help, the price goes up exponentially, until using it is essentially removing all liquid resources every time.)

I'm still waiting for the day that computers can generate decent to good stories, and for some one to take that technology and attach it to a video game. Every play through different!

Deus Ex?

[/quote]

Never played it (yeah yeah shame on me etc.), but I know the technology to make this isn't there yet. They have computers that can pump out enjoyable short stories, but any more than a few pages and the story breaks down and doesn't make sense [at all, like a character having entirely different goals and pursuits and style of speech from one paragraph to the next]. I imagine actually creating characters and making them interesting and likeable, and a world to inhabit and explore, and a story for the player to persue from pressing "Generate New Game" is still at least two or three decades away.

 

[General Ma Chao]

My pet peeve with RPGs (especially jRPGS) these days is this: All of the cool things in the story are done by other people. All of the interesting choices, tactics, and combat are typically handled in exposition or in cut scenes. We as the players are reduced to the role of sidekick.

Think of FF12, Baltier should have been the main story, as Vaan's point of view is dull. His story is minor. But Baltier and his moral choices are things we cannot influence.

In jRPGs all we do is walk from point A to B to have a story told to us. There is no choice at all, except in the way you have to defeat the generic monsters on the way. Western RPGs (Morrowind, KOTOR, Fallout, etc.) handle this much better--your choices matter--but there aren't enough of them.

Also:

1. Nonlinear story.
2. Moral choices beyond Schoolboy and Utter Bastard would be nice.
3. Adult protagonists with adult choices.
4. Sex. The median age of gamers is 29. We can handle it.
5. Stop the grinding.
6. More choice in the nature of the protagonist: male/female, straight/gay, old/young, etc.
7. Different settings.
8. Let us make interesting choices. Why can't I use my uber-summons to open that locked door?
9. No more maps on rails.

Mass Effect does a lot of this, and is lauded for it. I just want to see more games like it.

1,2,3,6 are things that sound great on paper but are a herculean task to execute. The coding would take much longer than average. Do you remember Mass Effect's great grandfather, Neverwinter Nights 1? That game was in development for vast amounts of time and was getting a status akin to Duke Nuken Forever before it finally came out. They were trying to put in all these alternate approaches and options for customization. Even then, you had no choice but to investigate the plague and continue the storyline. It's just not possible for a video game to tell every story in existence. There are just too many possiblities and variables. The only reason Oblivion and other sandboxy games get away with it is because they leave the role playing to your imagination. If you don't want to do that, than you're SOL.

Moving on to #4, the game would only get M or AO ratings. It's been my experience that while adults do play games, the ones that play RPGs are far fewer than those who just want to play sports games and Halo.

#5 Some games have grind and some do not. I don't like it either but with games with more complex rule sets that allow you to switch abilities, equipment, etc. it makes actual use of tactics viable.

#7 Tired of high fantasy? Try Rogue Galaxy. Skies of Arcadia is an RPG about being a pirate.

#8 The problem with your example is that if you wanted to use a summon to blast open one door, what's to stop you from doing that with ALL doors? Or ALL obstacles for that matter? If you just want more ways to navigate non combat obstacles, then I agree, but it can still only go so far. I think context should be kept in mind though. If the game gave you a world ending summon too soon, that goes a long way to being unable to suspend disbelief.

#9 Because wandering off in a random direction is only a waste of valuable disk space as well as more mundane and regurgitated scenery. It's a necessary evil to get you where you're going.

 

[Mushroomjay]

Well let's get the obvious off my chest:

-Less linearity.
-More logical character appearances and stories
-More logical stories.
-More emphasis on story.
-Less exaggeration.
-A far superior combat scheme.
-Less innovation in WHAT you level up, more innovation in HOW you level up. (ie, less grinding.)
-Less Grinding.
-Dammit, less grinding.
-More logical weaponry.
-Far more explanation.
-Less milking of franchises.
-More God Damned conclusions to questions!

Hm. It seems I've lost my train of thought.. Ah well.. I suppose I can leave it like this and get some of my means across..

 

[TSED]

Heh. I don't mind grinding done well. If the combat's fun, against anything and everything, you can barely realise you're 'grinding'.

 

[the_dull_spark]

If i were to change RPGs, for many i would put in a more global leveling system where all your charaters stay within 1-5 levels of each other, therefore if you decide that you feel like trying a new charater they wont suck. Spells and skills also level up with level, not when you use them, to reduce grinding.

Edit: My perfect RPG would be the Myst series with some sort of combat system. (Riven was awesome, 10 diferent endings, ones you didn't know you were choosing).

-That brings me to my final point of RPGs most choices you make, you can easily see the consequences before the choice is made, or the consequence is result( such as item) or nothing (item missed). I'd much rather a slight alteration in the story then getting a new slightly better weapon. (Or in the case of fable, totaly overpowered and will use for the rest of the game).

 

[Knight Templar]

on weapons i have a proplem with boring weapons. if a weapon has special powers then give it a name. a dagger that is made of ice shouldent be called "ice dagger" and it should get somthing in decription thats more in-depth then "ice dagger". and don't give them out at every oppitunity. "oh you killed a fish, have the BFG 9000". if we find powerful lengenday weapons every time we turn around, then whats so great about them? fable did this very well. FF x did not. don't make getting special weapons mantatory. if you have to go out of your way for a weqapon then using it will be all the more fun.

P.S. also of we find good weapons everytime we turn around then all RPG's will turn into spinging games.

 

[Alan Au]

1. Add co-op.
2. Get rid of hit-point-based combat systems.
3. Differentiate between "evil" and "petty."

- Alan

the first two are dumb as all hell, no seriously no Offense, but MMORPGs are for Playing with others, i play RPGs by my self because i don't need a faster way to fall out with my friends, im pretty sure had i been playing Co-Op on Kingdom Hearts two with my cousin by the end i would have strangled him, hey maybe you and your pals have much more patience to live with each others fuck ups during the game, i dont know

Hit-Point based system makes RPGS difficult, and guess what, EVE$RY GAME uses hitpoints when theres fighting, oh sure sometimes you dont see it, but how do you think every bloody shooter and platform decides you DONT die? Gears of War theres HP, Halo HP, sure theres no Number but its there, the only thing i can think is diffrent is Mario and sonic nut i haven't played the more recent ones

anyway almost every game that involves fighting has HP, not in the Number format but its there, you have no right to ***** about there being HP in RPGs, unless of course you LIKE dying in 1 hit

My main complaint about hit-point systems is that they go up linearly with player level, and that enemies are easier or harder to defeat based only on their hit-point totals. I have a separate complaint about hit-point-based damage systems, but this level-based hit point stuff is just lazy game design.

As for co-op, I'm not counting MMORPGs because they're heavy on the MMO, light on the RPG. Treadmill-enhanced chatrooms don't really make for very good "games." The hit-point thing doesn't help, since it means you can't play with your friends if they aren't of comparable character level--it's all related.

You may think my ideas are dumb, no offense, but don't go complaining to me when your friends won't play with you.

- Alan

 

[pugslayer]

Im just gonna make a quick note here. It seems as though what everyone wants for the battle system is a combination of Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga(henceforth abreviated as SMTDDS), the witcher and FFXII.
Take a look at what you would have:
From SMTDDS:
(First an explanation, SMTDDS's battle system gave you 3 characters and 3 "tokens" If you got a crit or use an attack that affected your nmys weakness, you get back 1/2 a token(half tokens count as full tokens, so if you had 1 and 1/2 tokens you could do 2 attacks)) alternately you could lose a token by doing something stupid like acidentally attacking your own character, or helping you nmys by healing or attacking thier strentgh(water vs a water type etc...)
1. What attacks you use matter, if you pay attention to what really hurts your enemy you can do a lot of damage really quickly by getting extra turns, alternately your nmy can do the same making even lowlevel random encounters quickly turn precarious if your opponent fights well.
2. Decisions decisions, you could choose how you wanted to fight, as a frail human with a gun, or as a demon, against certain nmys being the weaker form could help.
3. You didnt get superpowers. There was no real game breaking move, and since the only equipable thing was your guns(which you often didnt even use) getting mad loot wasnt the reason for grinding. This made the game go much faster.
From FFXII you get:
1. No interface. More than anything the gambit system went a long way towards making it realistic, you only had to worry about Vaan, and your allies wouldn't do anything dumb.
From the witcher:
1. Skill based fighting, if your good and your timing is right, you do more damage, simple.

 

[romitelli]

From the witcher:
1. Skill based fighting, if your good and your timing is right, you do more damage, simple.

Aaaargh, timing-based battles can burn in hell!

It was annoying, but somewhat useful, in Vagrant Story. In FFVIII, the gunblade trigger just seemed to diverge from the rest of the game.
It just slows everything down.

 

[chibigowang]

Make the Backround seem morel ike a movie than a stand still.
Bosses that actully died the first time you beat them.
Characters that didn't raddle on there life story if you didn't ask.
More dialog and game doesn't end once you beat final boss.

 

[Mylon]

JRPGs just bug the crap out of me. It's a bunch of stupid combat through linear dungeons interrupted by very, very slow paced cut scenes. What a JRPG might take 5 minutes to deliver in a cutscene an anime can accomplish in 30 seconds because the lines aren't delivered one at a time. Combine this with the fact that so many of them follow the same old, "You go from level 1 to level 50" linear advancement crap and combat systems that require no skill what so ever and you have a game that has no compelling reason to be played at all.

Now, I would like to point out Disgaea as an exception to the rule. The game had some genuinely amusing points (partly because it didn't take itself seriously) and the level system was not linear. Sure, characters went from level 1-100 for the main story, but there were also weapon skills, levels for special abilities, and equipment leveled up as well. And you could reset your level and have more potential growth without having to sacrifice weapon skills ability levels and equipment? And that you have at least 10 characters, likely many, many more that you're doing this with? It was the only JRPG worth playing in a long while. Well, aside from the 20 hours FFXII was worth (not that I finished it in that time, but it was amusing for that duration).

 

[Knight Templar]

i played FF X and because i'm a hardcore RPG fan (1) i could tell that the semingly unimportant dialog was plot changing (2). if somthing is important TELL US. it wasnt a mistory it was how i treated my NPC's. if the important parts in the game arn't the big boss battles or the epic war's something is wrong. on a unrelated topic; if i'm a evil badarse then how i ack shoud reflect that. if i say "i don't like being lied to" then people shouldent lies as much. or if i'm a doormat, people should rip me off all the time-but not if i brutaly murder people. i could go on but you get the idear

P.S. my mass effect charecter always said "i don't like been lied to!" when sombody lied to me, same tone same face, the writing was the same sometimes too- thats lazy



1(i like D&D the most, since i was 10)
2(not that it changed much)