I Am Confused Edition: Sexist for calling someone "stunning"?

[maninahat]

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I'm curious to know whether you'd think it was sexism if the genders were reversed? Or if it was a homosexual (wo)man and another of the same sex? Seems to me that it'd be hard to universally apply this line of thinking. I'd be tempted to stick to calling it "sexual harassment" instead.

Yes and yes. You could call it just sexual harassment if you like, but sexual harassment itself is rooted in sexism (regardless of gender, or whether it is the same gender).

One thing I can say for certain is that I'm glad I don't work in an environment full of Charlotte Proudman's. I get compliments more than I give them at work, and it's all just fine. Knowing what I do about the company, a worker openly shaming a colleague on social media would be treated very severely. Frankly, given Charlotte's course of action, it's very good for her that they don't work together.

I can't agree. I've been sexual harassed (not in the NHS, mind you), and had a lot of colleagues who have been sexually harassed. I'm not just referring to unsolicited compliments from strangers. It's a distressing thing that you should never have to put up with, and it makes you feel unwelcome at work, and yet you are often expected to put up with it or not say anything. I'm more sympathetic to her actions, even if her decision to talk about it on social media was not the most prudent thing to do. She has no obligation to be discrete about someone being a dick to her. My biggest concern is that they will both get punished by the mindless online mob justice, because that's how these things usually pan out - but why exactly should she be blamed for that, and not the mob?

 

[Emanuele Ciriachi]

I think you'll find that any sufficiently large business in a developed country will have policies for penalizing sexual harassment, and that their definition of sexual harassment will usually include unwelcome comments about people's appearance. Pick any big organisation and google it. Considering how prevalent sexual harassment was, and still is, its probably a good idea to have them.

You tell me, I work for a PR agency.

I agree of course, but sexual harassment does not necessarily implies the irrational belief that either sex is inherently inferior or inadequate to a specific task - which was what we were talking about.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

snip

I'm curious to know whether you'd think it was sexism if the genders were reversed? Or if it was a homosexual (wo)man and another of the same sex? Seems to me that it'd be hard to universally apply this line of thinking. I'd be tempted to stick to calling it "sexual harassment" instead.

Yes and yes. You could call it just sexual harassment if you like, but sexual harassment itself is rooted in sexism (regardless of gender, or whether it is the same gender).

One thing I can say for certain is that I'm glad I don't work in an environment full of Charlotte Proudman's. I get compliments more than I give them at work, and it's all just fine. Knowing what I do about the company, a worker openly shaming a colleague on social media would be treated very severely. Frankly, given Charlotte's course of action, it's very good for her that they don't work together.

I can't agree. I've been sexual harassed (not in the NHS, mind you), and had a lot of colleagues who have been sexually harassed. I'm not just referring to unsolicited compliments from strangers. It's a distressing thing that you should never have to put up with, and it makes you feel unwelcome at work, and yet you are often expected to put up with it or not say anything. I'm more sympathetic to her actions, even if her decision to talk about it on social media was not the most prudent thing to do. She has no obligation to be discrete about someone being a dick to her. My biggest concern is that they will both get punished by the mindless online mob justice, because that's how these things usually pan out - but why exactly should she be blamed for that, and not the mob?

I'm not sure where that question comes from exactly. I have no interest in dissolving responsibility for the twitter-mob-justice-brigade. I've been a strong opponent of that culture on these very forums, to much ridicule.

No obligation to who? This is not a 'normal' for society that I would want to arrive at, this is bizarre behvaiour and I want it to stay that way. If there's an obligation it's to common sense. If everyone did this it would be a nightmare.

When I'm talking about the behaviour being ill-advised in regards to her own best interests, I'm saying that she is making a tit of herself in front of potential employers. I'm not impressed, I'd see this as a serious red-mark against her... I doubt I'm alone in feeling this way. I wouldn't invite this kind of stupidity onto my staff... I'm not talking about the mob. Fuck the mob, and fuck public shaming as a go-to.

 

[Emanuele Ciriachi]

This is a universal perception of an aging populace, and the world is their echo chamber. We're going through an elder boom, and we're seeing a lot of mindless hand-wringing nostalgia jockeys opine these days as a profession.

Fortunately most people seem to get that "Political Correctness gone maaaaad" is the joke it should be taken for.

Some people may go with it, others may just fall in line for fear of repercussion. As for myself, political correctness genuinely offends me. The mere notion that we should hide our thoughts - with the obvious exception of contexts where they would be clearly inappropriate - simply because they might offend someone's precious sensibility is just unhealthy.

The creeping fear of all this is threatening the free exchange of ideas that have made us what we are and that have given us our strength. This is damaging our society in a fundamental way and it has got to stop.

 

[sumanoskae]

The unfortunate side effect of any movement becoming mainstream is that someone invariably misuses it. This is pretty cut and dry; complimenting someone's appearance is not a violation of their rights. You could make the argument for a professional website not being the time or place, but publicly accusing the guy of bigotry was uncalled for.

Confusing the appreciation of of physical beauty for the dismissal of everything else is classic mark of ignorance on the subject of feminism.

 

[Jadak]

Eh, he did just say 'stunning' and 'best picture'. Sure, maybe not strictly professional, but it's a far cry from 'that's a face my cum would look great on', and people who get offended by such things are looking to get offended.

 

[Burgers2013]

I do find the comment unprofessional, reflecting a sexist attitude on the part of the guy, and totally inappropriate for LinkedIn. However, it's not classified as sexual harassment because he stopped as soon as she told him she was unhappy with this comments. Even at work this comment would not fit the definition of sexual harassment.

On a different note: This guy has gone through sensitivity training before, I guarantee you. The most important rule of thumb they teach you is: if you start to think/say something like: "This is a little unprofessional/personal/politically incorrect, but..." STOP SAYING WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO SAY. Just stop. Listen to the little voice in your head. Since he took the time to write that all out, he should have never sent that message. He should have known better.

If it were me, I would not publicly shame him like that because I wouldn't do that to anyone even if they deserved it. That's not how I deal with problems. Then again, if everyone did it my way, the issue wouldn't be raised in the public eye often and could easily be forgotten.

The one thing I wish she had done differently is not identify him. Does it really matter that it was that particular guy? Not really. If she wants to talk about the issue broadly, it'd probably have been more prudent to refer to him as a "highly respected, powerful lawyer" among her tertiary connections. Not that she owes him that or anything. However, I think it would have elevated her position some because the "social media lynch mob" thing would be a non-issue. Plenty of female professionals have spoken out about this sort of behavior in male-dominated fields without naming names. The biggest problem I've noticed is that some discredit them because of "lack of evidence." Either way, I'm glad some people are bringing this kind of problem forward when they experience it. Hopefully everyone will get the memo eventually.

Does anyone know if the guy was fired/reprimanded in any way?

 

[Jack Action]

I do find the comment unprofessional, reflecting a sexist attitude on the part of the guy, and totally inappropriate for LinkedIn. However, it's not classified as sexual harassment because he stopped as soon as she told him she was unhappy with this comments. Even at work this comment would not fit the definition of sexual harassment.


On a different note: This guy has gone through sensitivity training before, I guarantee you. The most important rule of thumb they teach you is: if you start to think/say something like: "This is a little unprofessional/personal/politically incorrect, but..." STOP SAYING WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO SAY. Just stop. Listen to the little voice in your head. Since he took the time to write that all out, he should have never sent that message. He should have known better.

Saying something sensitivity training teaches you not to say is proof you've gone through sensitivity training?

If it were me, I would not publicly shame him like that because I wouldn't do that to anyone even if they deserved it. That's not how I deal with problems. Then again, if everyone did it my way, the issue wouldn't be raised in the public eye often and could easily be forgotten.

Yes, well, unfortunately, some people seem incapable of not acting like 16 year-olds.

The one thing I wish she had done differently is not identify him. Does it really matter that it was that particular guy? Not really. If she wants to talk about the issue broadly, it'd probably have been more prudent to refer to him as a "highly respected, powerful lawyer" among her tertiary connections. Not that she owes him that or anything.

...well, generally speaking, not setting a twitter lynch mob on someone because they're ugly and they sent you a compliment isn't doing them a favor, it's being a reasonable person who understands the concept of "proportionate response".

However, I think it would have elevated her position some because the "social media lynch mob" thing would be a non-issue. Plenty of female professionals have spoken out about this sort of behavior in male-dominated fields without naming names. The biggest problem I've noticed is that some discredit them because of "lack of evidence." Either way, I'm glad some people are bringing this kind of problem forward when they experience it. Hopefully everyone will get the memo eventually.

Does anyone know if the guy was fired/reprimanded in any way?

Please, please tell me you're not saying that pointing out one needs to back up their accusations with... well... proof, counts as discrediting the accuser. Please.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

Anyone saying this is sexist or actually misogyny 101% crazy.
First, he didn't even compliment her. He said it's a freaking stunning picture. And it freaking is. Look at that damn thing. How can you not say it's stunning? And you really believe it's impossible to actually compliment someone just on the picture and not them?
Well for starters, she certainly isn't stunning. The picture is. I've seen a lot of people start up a conversation on similar things, and no one overreacted like this. I know I did, and with guys. Compliments are a great way to start up a conversation, even in a professional ambient. Unless you pick a crazy.
Second, even if he was saying she was stunning, it's not discrimination and it's especially not some damn woman hating.
Third, yeah, and she's the voice of reason. Linkedin isn't some ultra high professional club. I have an account. I've been in touch with quite a few people because I was trying to get some connections and possibly a job. It's fucking Facebook for people who think they are above others with a few actually professional people. And going to freaking Twitter, of all places? Really? Please don't tell me she didn't intentionally try to ruin his whole freaking private and professional life because she overreacted. Anyone with 1/10th of a functioning brain will know what she tried to do with that shit.

Someone told me I'm stunning, boo hoo, mommy! Grow a pair. Yes, I'm telling a woman to grow a pair of balls. Deal with it.

At worst this is sexual harassment. At best it's a harmless compliment to her. Most realistically, it's a compliment to the photographer and a conversation starter.

 

[Burgers2013]

Saying something sensitivity training teaches you not to say is proof you've gone through sensitivity training?

He's a professional, therefore there's very little chance he's never gone through sensitivity training. I've been through it twice (one computer-based and one in-person) at my current company, and I haven't even worked for a full year. Companies really, really do not want these kinds of things happening in the workplace. That's all I meant by that.

Please, please tell me you're not saying that pointing out one needs to back up their accusations with... well... proof, counts as discrediting the accuser. Please.

I think it's useful to talk about the problem broadly without naming names. And no, I do NOT automatically discredit accounts of sexist comments/instances that don't include names/pictures/etc. when talking about the problem in a general sense.*

Think about how different this would have been had she written an open letter about her experiences to others in her profession and explained how frustrated she is to have men sending her compliments about her looks over LinkedIn. She could have included this example with his name/photo blocked out. Maybe this would have been a wake-up call to some, maybe not. However, there would definitely be no Twitter non-sense. In this case, I would not ask her to name him as a condition for me to believe that it happened.

*However, if you're looking to get someone specific in trouble/fired then of COURSE you have to have hard proof. I didn't mean direct accusations require no proof. For example, if I'm your HR person at work, you can say Hank has been calling you "Titts Mcgee" for weeks when no one is around, and I might even believe you without evidence. However, if it turns out there's no evidence/witnesses/confession to be had, you can't expect me to punish him, even if I believe your story. If I were to fire him based on accusations with no backup, I could get the company sued/myself fired--And that's exactly how it should be.

To be very clear, I do NOT think he should be reprimanded for this at his workplace. This was not sexual harassment because he stopped and apologized when she made it clear she was uncomfortable. It would be very unfair to punish him at work for something like this. This is why I despise Twitter.

 

[Jack Action]

Saying something sensitivity training teaches you not to say is proof you've gone through sensitivity training?

He's a professional, therefore there's very little chance he's never gone through sensitivity training. I've been through it twice (one computer-based and one in-person) at my current company, and I haven't even worked for a full year. Companies really, really do not want these kinds of things happening in the workplace. That's all I meant by that.

Please, please tell me you're not saying that pointing out one needs to back up their accusations with... well... proof, counts as discrediting the accuser. Please.

I think it's useful to talk about the problem broadly without naming names. And no, I do NOT automatically discredit accounts of sexist comments/instances that don't include names/pictures/etc. when talking about the problem in a general sense.*

Think about how different this would have been had she written an open letter about her experiences to others in her profession and explained how frustrated she is to have men sending her compliments about her looks over LinkedIn. She could have included this example with his name/photo blocked out. Maybe this would have been a wake-up call to some, maybe not. However, there would definitely be no Twitter non-sense. In this case, I would not ask her to name him as a condition for me to believe that it happened.

*However, if you're looking to get someone specific in trouble/fired then of COURSE you have to have hard proof. I didn't mean direct accusations require no proof. For example, if I'm your HR person at work, you can say Hank has been calling you "Titts Mcgee" for weeks when no one is around, and I might even believe you without evidence. However, if it turns out there's no evidence/witnesses/confession to be had, you can't expect me to punish him, even if I believe your story. If I were to fire him based on accusations with no backup, I could get the company sued/myself fired--And that's exactly how it should be.

To be very clear, I do NOT think he should be reprimanded for this at his workplace. This was not sexual harassment because he stopped and apologized when she made it clear she was uncomfortable. It would be very unfair to punish him at work for something like this. This is why I despise Twitter.

Hmm, much fairer than I expected. My bad for assuming you were going at this in bad faith; thanks for clarifying.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

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The reasons for me calling her a dick seem about as relevant as his alleged "creepiness", given that that's what makes up the story.

I do feel differently to you, that's pretty obvious. I'm glad we could come to a disagreement.

 

[Kameburger]

Uggg... This story makes me roll my eyes and I feel like it shouldn't. Calling him out is one thing, but publicly shaming him this way seems like way to much overkill. Is what he did sexist? sure, but technically according to US law at least so is asking a co-worker if they have plans for the weekend. I mean she's going to get a lot of good attention over this for her I'm sure, but she could be ending a career over a single comment that frankly could have been a lot worse. I'm not defending what he did, because it was a stupid thing to do, but an apology isn't good enough for this? What does she want him to do? she just wants him to suffer? Your own personal catharsis is not social justice.

 

[Buffoon1980]

Look at this rationally, a 57 year old man inappropriately messaged a 27 year old on a professional website in a way that is annoying and frankly creepy.

Is it sexist? Not sure really, id say no, but at the same time is the problem here that the person being creeped on by an older "professional" used the "wrong word" to describe the creepiness? Is that the take away from this? Some guy was an asshole, some girl described his assholishness using the wrong words and we focus on the later-bit?

No compliments are not sexist. You think being complimented is what made her annoyed? Cmon try and understand her perspective and apply SOME context. You cant honestly believe compliments are being accused of being sexist here right? I cant possibly imagine how youd take that from this story, this is about someone older in your field using a professional service to be creepy.

Looking at things rationally? Trying to understand someone else's perspective!? Ah, if only more people were actually capable of doing this. The world would be a better place, and I'd be less likely to suffer a rage-induced brain aneurysm every time I looked at a computer monitor.

 

[Batou667]

A lot of lazy ageism going unchallenged in this thread.

Why is every other description of the guy in question embellished with phrases like "grandpa", "twice her age", and so on? Does it matter?

Would his comments have been less "creepy"[footnote]One of my contenders for "completely subjective and overused buzzword of 2015", but anyway...[/footnote] and inappropriate if he'd been a 30 year old? If you answered "no" to this question, then his age is irrelevant, and bolting it on as if it were a compounding factor is to use his age demographic as a cheap slur. It would be no better to say "Ugh, I was messaged out of the blue by this creepy fat, black guy". Either condemn the behaviour or condemn the demographic of the person committing it: pick one. On the other hand, anybody who thinks that this guy's inappropriate communication would have been fine if only he were younger (and perhaps better-looking?) are exhibiting a shallow age bias.

Solution: stop listing this guy's age in the same breath as his more objective flaws.

I have no idea why this irks me so much, I'm not that old myself and so don't really have a dog in this fight. But this is the kind of everyday prejudice that the esteemed and eminently progressive members of this thread really ought to be better than.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Seems creepy. Especially in the context of him saying its not politically correct to say shes stunning. But Its too open to interpretation to really make a case out of. I mean 'stunning?' That could just mean nice photo, My mum tells my sister she looks stunning on facebook all the time!

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well in this new brave world of perpetually offended you can pretty much expect to be sexist every time you inhale and every time you exhale, particularly if you happen to be male, and absolutely if you happen to be doing that creepy activity in proximity of the holy sanctity of womanhood.

Obviously I exaggerate, but this shit is increasing in frequency and absurdity, at this point even the Amish would roll their eyes if they got to hear about any of this. And you would expect this crazy shit from the teenage/Fox News inspired crowd, but now we are up to highly educated adult professionals that represent these matters in court... and no shred of common sense in sight, that is the really disturbing part.

 

[Emanuele Ciriachi]

I can't express how little I care about how people are offended. That's true of people who can't take humor, and you who can't take some modest change in how people treat each other. Dinosaurs and all of that.

Exactly! Precisely because I don't care about people that CHOOSE to be offended I despise when people make legitimate comments that some people may be offended with and are then labeled with trigger labels or as whateverophobes.

The typical modern day citizen has become a whiny, offended idiot whose panties get in a twist if the wind blows or a cat looks at them for too long. It's become the greatest fad in the past decade or so, and I blame the concurrent rise of social media where a lot of this tripe seems to begin festering before spilling into local, and then national, news.

 

[Lightknight]

Sexist? Not really. Finding someone attractive and stating it isn't sexist. Sexism is discrimination against women or attitudes that foster stereotypes/gender roles based on sex.

Sexual Harasser? Only if the individual continues after being told to stop or if the act was particularly egregious which this one wasn't (slapping the ass, for example, is automatically sexual harassment even if the individual stops when warned)

Men and women are going to find one another attractive. We are evolutionarily predisposed to it and are rewarded for acting on that predisposition. It would be foolish to condemn an individual for behaving in line with basic human nature.

That being said: Creepy? Sure. Who the hell uses linkedin for that? I guess the guy was just bummed that he can't use Ashley Madison anymore.