I just realized something!

[God's Clown]

I was under the impression hardcore gamers wanted things that were stupidly challenging so they can beat them, and then beat their meat at how awesome they therefore must be. They also want them to stay stupidly hard so "filthy casuals" can't have access to said content.

My captcha is "you're welcome" so I must be right.

 

[ZephrC]

Sorry, I just posted this thread just before I went to bed last night. I guess I was a little on the tired side; I get goofy when I need sleep. Although seriously, I thought it was pretty obvious that I wasn't actually talking to every single person on the Escapist. I mean, you couldn't figure that out on your own? The statement was directed at a hypothetical generic hardcore gamer. If that doesn't apply to you then congratulations! I wasn't talking about you.

Also, what's up with all the hate for generalizations? Generalizations wouldn't be so dangerous if they weren't frequently correct. A generalization isn't supposed to be accurate for every single member of a group, just generally true of most of them. All this generalization hate is actually kind of anti-intellectual, because generalizations are necessary to discuss societies and their effects on different groups of people. That is an important thing to be able to discuss. It's only when trying to apply generalizations to individuals that they go horribly wrong, because obviously nothing is going to apply to every member of any group. Duh. So everyone that says that a generalization is wrong because it doesn't apply to them is completely missing the point.

Sorry, that's just a pet peeve of mine.

Anyway, you know that I like you all, right? (Well, not literally all, but most of you. Even the ones that don't like generalizations.) That first post came off as a bit confrontational, but I'm posting here on the Escapist instead of somewhere like IGN because I actually kinda like this place. So I really am genuinely sorry if you feel insulted. That wasn't really my intention.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

......

......Then there's the rest of us that couldn't be bothered by what the graphics look like and wonder if the game is any fun.

I've never understood this elitism with people and when it comes to graphics and how awesome their PC is, it hurts my brain too much.

It's all too silly!

 

[Vegosiux]

Yeah because no hardcore gamer has ever been a fan of older games, or newer ones with simpler graphics like Super Meat Boy.

SMB is one of those games I file under "self-flagellation". As in, the games you go play in order to get the pants frustrated off your butt. Can be fun sometimes, but I stopped calling them "hard".

 

[ChildishLegacy]

So why do games like LoL, DotA, Starcraft, Quake, UT, Tribes etc. have huge hardcore scenes? It's not for the graphics I can tell you that, it's for the games. If anything "hardcore" gamers (I hate the term, it really doesn't describe anything anymore it's used so loosely) are there for the gameplay and nothing else, people that enjoy staring at pwetty graphics play games for a completely different reason. (just as valid if they get enjoyment out of it btw).

Also, the reason a lot of us prefer PC over consoles has nothing to do with graphics. At all. I could talk about it but I'm betting this has been answered at least 5 times in this thread.

 

[Zaik]

i lol'd.

"graphics whores" are a subset of "hardcore gamers", not the entire thing. I would say that they deserve all the hate you can throw at them, but honestly they're paying $2000+ for computers to run games designed to run on the PS3/Xbox 360. The same machine will be for sale for about $500 in four or five years, just laugh at it and go about your business.

 

[CityofTreez]

I'm not a graphics whore. And hell, I dislike Crysis and Battlefield 3 because that's what's so focused. The engine, graphics ect and ignore that they're both very average games.

Now don't get me wrong. I enjoy a pretty game, when it doesn't hurt everything else. I love the graphics of Batman, Assassin's Creed and Bioshock because they enhance the games, not take away from them.

 

[DoPo]

Although seriously, I thought it was pretty obvious that I wasn't actually talking to every single person on the Escapist. I mean, you couldn't figure that out on your own? The statement was directed at a hypothetical generic hardcore gamer.

Nope, I'm still looking at it. Well, OK, maybe vaguely it seems so, but then again, maybe you're also saying that the Escapist is only housing those "hardcore gamers".

Which brings me to another point. What the fuck is a hardcore gamer? It seems that while each can generally tell the difference between a "hardcore" and "casual" gamer, trying to actually define them becomes hard. Well, not hard but "dependant on the person who currently speaks" more like. Incidentally,

Also, what's up with all the hate for generalizations?

you are what's wrong. And all those who keep saying that "hardcore gamers" are this and that. Oh, have you heard of the term "normal gamer"? I certainly haven't - it's either "casual" or "hardcore" seemingly with nowhere to go in between. Why, just look at the thread, there are people saying "well if that's hardcore, I better be casual". Even you said something to that effect. So, thank you generalisations, for robbing me of my place in gaming hierarchy.

You not only took a concept without specifying what you mean by it, you then went on and banged on several stuff about that concept while under the guise of generalisations. In effect, you said nothing. But somehow that made things worse.

Generalizations wouldn't be so dangerous if they weren't frequently correct.

So, you're saying that because the generalisations are correct, they are dangerous? Let me ask you something, have you even be on the web at all? Even on this site? Haven't you seen how many generalisations are so mind bogglingly wrong or downright stupid? Flick to Offtopic and you'll see the "All men cheat" thread - it should still be up there. There is a user that made a "All English VAs suck, people should only hire Japanese ones" thread several times, each time showing a single bad VA snip. Remember the ME3 thing when both sides were outright dismissing each other by generalising the other into imbeciles? Hell, just look at the "DmC looks great, what's with all the hate?" thread and see how people with legitimate concerns are thrown into a blanket group and called idiots.

If generalisations, were correct more times, then maybe we wouldn't be so negative towards it. However, as it stands people misuse them left and right, so there is no need to contribute to that.

Sorry, that's just a pet peeve of mine.

And broad dismissive and/or wrong generalisations are pet peeve of mine.

 

[ZephrC]

Go die, seriously.

Ooooookay. I'll just go do that then.

*dies*

 

[Denamic]

I can't remember when I read a post more smug than this.
It's kinda confusing, because can't tell if cereal.

 

[ZephrC]

snip

Zombie post!

Your post didn't show up until after I posted my previous response, so if this is a double post I apologize.

Anyway, I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying all generalizations are correct, or that you shouldn't argue with mine. In fact I did go a little overboard in the OP. What I'm saying is that attacking the very concept of generalizations is anti-intellectual.

If you want to call me wrong, which is what you did, that's cool. I don't recall ever saying there wasn't such thing as a normal gamer though. I just meant I don't like most of the people I've met that self-identify as hardcore, and they generally tend to dislike casual gamers. I never even implied that constituted the entirety of all gamers. Why would you assume I meant that?

Also, I said generalizations are frequently right. Not always, not even mostly. Just with regular occurrence. Obviously there are lots of incorrect ones out there. I just tend to assume that people won't assume I'm stupid. It's hard to have an intelligent conversation when constantly covering your ass for every possible stupid conclusion that someone could jump to about everything you say.

I guess if your point is that because there are so many bad generalizations all generalizations are left with a higher burden of proof I can't really say you're wrong. Just that I wish it didn't have to be that way. That's still not a valid criticism of any generalizations I've made though, because applying generalizations down to the individual members of a group doesn't work.

 

[ninjaRiv]

You seem... angry. Like you want to hurt "hardcore" gamers emotionally? Were you... molested by a "hardcore" gamer? When you say "hardcore" do you mean somebody who molests in a "hardcore" way? Or are you easily "annoyed?" Does my over use of quotation marks annoy you? I think you may have some issues. If you would like, I can set aside an hour for you every week. I'm not a shrink but I think I can help you deal with your hatred for your vague description of "hardcore" gamers and your inevitable hatred for people who use quotations.

Hang in there, buddy!

 

[BarbaricGoose]

Also, what's up with all the hate for generalizations? Generalizations wouldn't be so dangerous if they weren't frequently correct. A generalization isn't supposed to be accurate for every single member of a group, just generally true of most of them. All this generalization hate is actually kind of anti-intellectual, because generalizations are necessary to discuss societies and their effects on different groups of people. That is an important thing to be able to discuss. It's only when trying to apply generalizations to individuals that they go horribly wrong, because obviously nothing is going to apply to every member of any group. Duh. So everyone that says that a generalization is wrong because it doesn't apply to them is completely missing the point.

Except that "Hardcore gamers only care about graphics" has no evidence--empirical or otherwise--at all to back it up. So saying it even applies to one hardcore gamer is stupid. I could generalize that everyone over the age of 70 is actually an alien from planet Zexu-11, but really, what would be the point? And if this thread is anything to go by, a lot of hardcore gamers don't care about graphics. Now I won't say graphics don't matter at all, but I think gameplay is more important.

Waaaaay to dump generalisations around. 99% of people couldn't give a crap if tesselation was enabled in their latest AAA title.

Irony....

 

[ZephrC]

Also, what's up with all the hate for generalizations? Generalizations wouldn't be so dangerous if they weren't frequently correct. A generalization isn't supposed to be accurate for every single member of a group, just generally true of most of them. All this generalization hate is actually kind of anti-intellectual, because generalizations are necessary to discuss societies and their effects on different groups of people. That is an important thing to be able to discuss. It's only when trying to apply generalizations to individuals that they go horribly wrong, because obviously nothing is going to apply to every member of any group. Duh. So everyone that says that a generalization is wrong because it doesn't apply to them is completely missing the point.

Except that "Hardcore gamers only care about graphics" has no evidence--empirical or otherwise--at all to back it up. So saying it even applies to one hardcore gamer is stupid. I could generalize that everyone over the age of 70 is actually an alien from planet Zexu-11, but really, what would be the point? And if this thread is anything to go by, a lot of hardcore gamers don't care about graphics. Now I won't say graphics don't matter at all, but I think gameplay is more important.

Yeah, that's a valid point. I think it's probably just a particular subtype of hardcore gamer I was thinking of when I made that point. Although to be fair I did flat out state that I didn't mean that anyone ever only cared about graphics. My point was that the sort of hardcore gamer that makes me hate that term is very similar to the sort of gamer that was referred to as a graphics whore back in the 90s.

I feel compelled to once again state that I don't feel that everyone on the Escapist is like that. You seem pretty cool for example.

 

[Bloodstain]

tl;dr:
1) All hardcore gamers are 'graphics whores'.
2) Hardcore gamers don't know the difference between mindless difficulty and interesting difficulty in games
3) Some mindless self-aggrandising and an attempted (but ultimately failing) display of "I know better than you and I feel sorry for you for not knowing as much as I do. But don't worry, I was like you at your age! Surely, you will understand after growing older."

Overall, you simply appear to me as an insufferable potato. I don't even know what your 'amusing observation' is supposed to be -- people have beein accusing hardcore gamers of focusing on graphics too much and of being insensitive to some of the finer nuances of games for quite a while.
For someone who is allegedly 'old', you sounds quite like a teenager, I'm afraid to say. You don't appear witty nor knowledgable by trying to be snarky. You appear confusing at best, obnoxious at worst. Not to be patronising, but perhaps you want to have a really good think about that.

Regarding your observation: You will find that, while many hardcore gamers consider graphics to be important, they won't say that graphics alone make for a good game. Considering your issue with difficulty in games, NES and SNES games were difficult in a similar way, to lengthen the total time of play. People feel nostalgic when they are confronted with such difficulty again -- as long as it's done right. There is mindless difficulty, but there arenn't many who enjoy it, rightly so. Although I must say I quite enjoyed IWBTG, which is probably the epitome of mindless difficulty.
I don't really know what to say. Your opening post has a very low "amount of text -- amount of content" ratio, it appears to me.
Feel free to correct me if I was wrong, or if I didn't understand you correctly.

Bottom line: Please stop generalising.

Edit: Maybe I should add that I don't consider myself a hardcore gamer. Nor a casual gamer. Nor a gamer at all. I enjoy playing video games a lot, but I don't consider it the central point of my existence. I have other hobbies, like reading -- and I don't call myself a 'booker' or a 'reader'. I play the games I enjoy -- old or new -- and that's it.

 

[RaginDrage]

I don't think it's just the difficulty that really shines in Dark Souls.

It's the fact that the game doesn't hold your hand every step of your journey.

 

[Bitcoon]

I've been wondering for a while now why I can't identify with hardcore gamers. I spend an unhealthy amount of time playing games, and I get into some really obscure ones. Gaming is obviously my main hobby, so why don't I identify with the hardcore crowd?

Well, I was recently trying to have a conversation where the other person and myself were just not communicating somehow and suddenly it dawned on me. You're all graphics whores. I mean, that's a terrible term. Obviously there are other things you care about besides graphics, but back when I was your age that's what we called you. We weren't being particularly fair. You were the ones that were going to ruin gaming forever when I was your age. (Haha, I'm old now!)

Obviously it was the whole 'PCs are better because they have better graphics' thing that tipped me off, but there are other things as well. The average hardcore gamer's inability to tell the difference between complicated and interesting has always irked me. (Seriously, the words 'dumbing down' fill me with so much rage.) The way idolized games always seem to involve some sort of weird combination of twitch reflexes and spreadsheet maintenance. The way everyone talks about Dark Souls like it's hard. (I mean yeah I died quite a bit, but I never got stuck anywhere. It's just a game that requires you to know what you're doing. That's not the same as hard.)

Hehehe. Man, I never really could get worked up about the whole casual gamer thing, but now it's kind of filling me with a sadistic sort of glee. I'm kinda sorry for you, but mostly I just find the realization that gaming is moving on past the people that it went to after it left me to be amusing. I kinda want to get a smartphone so I can buy a dozen copies of Angry Birds now.

Sorry, I don't normally enjoy the unhappiness of others. I'm sure I'll get over it pretty quickly, but well... you are kinda the reason behind gaming veering away from my tastes over the last couple decades, so you'll have to forgive me (Or not. Up to you.) for enjoying this for a moment.

Edit: Sorry, I was a bit tired when I posted this. It came across as insulting the reader when I didn't really mean for that to happen. It's supposed to be addressed to just the most annoying of hardcore gamers, not everyone on the Escapist, and even then it's not supposed to be seriously insulting. You know I like you guys, right? That's why I post here, you know. This was just supposed to be an amusing observation to discuss. Sorry I failed to get my point across.

Edit2: Took the maniacal laugh out of the title. That was more than just a bit overboard. I'm leaving reference to it here because it seems dishonest to remove things without saying so.

I'm gonna just say what others have probably already said and move on.

Hardcore=/=mainstream.
You insult my hardcore gaming past and present by saying that stuff. Hardcore isn't about wanting the best graphics. It isn't about gritty or mature games. It's about DIFFICULTY, challenge, the reward of overcoming impossible odds. Hardcore gamers love games. A good hardcore gamer will never restrict what they play just because of its genre, visuals, or the system it's on. Control scheme and controller are no issue to a hardcore gamer because adapting to something we're not used to is pretty much the entire founding principle of hardcore-ness. (as a side note, it's not that we won't play games without challenge, or that we can't enjoy them. Having fun with a casual game or Kirby or something isn't out of the question just because you normally like to be challenged)

I'm a hardcore gamer and my favorite games of all time are mostly 2D and could be played on something equal to or lesser than the DS/N64. My favorite genre is puzzle games, and the DS is my all-time favorite system. (it helps that it has some 80% of my favorite puzzle games on it, and the best iterations of most of the ones that have been on other systems, too)

Seriously, nothing against your rant about the mainstream morons who simultaneously refuse to play the "crap graphics" of the Wii and insist that PCs are too expensive. But I hate when people don't know what the definition of "hardcore" really is. You can call them "core" gamers, because they're pretty much the majority. But HARDcore should be at least mostly self-explanatory...

 

[teebeeohh]

Also, what's up with all the hate for generalizations? Generalizations wouldn't be so dangerous if they weren't frequently correct. A generalization isn't supposed to be accurate for every single member of a group, just generally true of most of them. All this generalization hate is actually kind of anti-intellectual, because generalizations are necessary to discuss societies and their effects on different groups of people. That is an important thing to be able to discuss.

no
what you probably mean is that it's highly important for humans to categorize people since our brains can't handle enough information for every individual we meet.
the problem is when we assume that the way our brains sort stuff MUST be true and apply to everyone the same way, assuming because we think that something applies to a group it is so(like assuming everyone we call "hardcore" is a graphics whore)
also your point is dead wrong, most people don't care about graphics, especially in the PC crowd, the main reason why we build rigs that cost thousands of Euros is because we like building them and it's fun and you don't feel like you wasted money on an inferior setup just because it has brand recognition/someone else did the thinking for you.
oh and since you mentioned graphics and spreadsheet-gaming in the same context i should tell you that those two are usually mutually exclusive, when a company spends a shitton of money on shiny graphics they want to appeal to as many people as possible and most games with spreadsheet appeal are developed for a small niche.
AND we just had a Dark souls thread were everybody and their dog pointed out that the game is well loved because the lore works so well with the unforgiving mechanics.

just what is you definition of "hard" if not "knowing what do" and "know how to do it" with one usually being a lot harder than the other?

 

[Twilight_guy]

Don't lump me with those douche bags, please. People who identify themselves as Hardcore gamers sometimes use it as a screen to profess stupid idea or prejudice, such as using it to differentiate between themselves and 'casual' gamers who they irrationally hate, or using it as sort of badge of honor to say how 'good' and 'skilled' they are. That has just sort of polluted any fragile meaning the word had. If you don't identify with it its probably because you've only seen douche bags use the term to describe themselves.

 

[Mr. GameBrain]

I think this is missing the mark just a tad.

Look I'll make it simple.

Barring casuals and non-gamers (since they have their own "tier" so to speak), gamers tend to develop and split into 4 different paths.

- Gamer/Mainstream: Just you know, doing more of the same on a slightly larger scale. May move on if life requires it, may still play the odd title here and there fairly casually.

- Hardcore: Gamers that tend to focus on one genre and try to perfect it. To evolve it into meta at best. Coming off as pretentious at worse.
This is usually where the competative sport-style games fall into. Advance terminology specific for that game/genre. That competition can make people egotistical, and a bit closed-minded.
Sometimes this can be hardware/performance related. People can be passionate about it, but the real Hardcore will JUSTIFY themselves. The posers won't ever be able to.

- Enthusiast: Where quite a few of us here are. We too have become a little meta, but its different. We play MORE games, of different genres, sometimes having hundreds of games should our finances allow it. We look beyond to the industry and the design in general, not a subset like a "Hardcore" might.

- "Hardcore" Posers: The people that claim to "Hardcore", but really are just lame. They will try to say something they think is smart, but makes little sense or just refuse to back it up. They tend to have like 3 or 4 games and base their entire viewpoints upon them.
No! You people don't acutally deserve to judge X or Y, when you only have a xbox, or PC you built from someone else's list, and you only play Call of Duty or FIFA, or whatever generic garbage PC equivalent.
^ These people are the most vocal, and they give gaming a bad name.
These are the sort of people that wouldn't ever touch a NES game because "THE GRAPHECS LOK BAD!!!??!", therefore its shit.

No its because you know as well as I do, that you just cannot play a game that doesn't hold your hand! That your frail arguments would crumble in practice.

Of course, these are again, generalisations, and in real life, this is all blurred, but trust me, get to the level I am on, and you see the patterns.