I left my girlfriend so I would never have to play another JRPG...
- Thread starter Unmitigated Hatred
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*Sighs* I know someone who claims to be 'classically trained', and has a music degree, he tells me his opinion counts more than mine because of that, then he goes on to say that Beethoven's music 'has no soul'! No soul, prrrrffffft!
All art is subjective, simple you cannot be objective as it is just your opinion, I think Picasso sucks but that doesn't mean he does, it just means I didn't see the beauty in his work. You can argue til you are blue in the face that you know better, but you don't, none of us do. It comes down to this simple old phrase ''I don't know about art, but I know what I like''!
I like JRPGs and WRPGs.
All art is subjective, simple you cannot be objective as it is just your opinion, I think Picasso sucks but that doesn't mean he does, it just means I didn't see the beauty in his work. You can argue til you are blue in the face that you know better, but you don't, none of us do. It comes down to this simple old phrase ''I don't know about art, but I know what I like''!
I like JRPGs and WRPGs.
This was a very well strucuted and concise post, hitting the major points and expressing your insights well. However, you kinda pushed it a bit far with your attitude. I don't mean the jokes or put-downs, those are fine and you're free to realise yourself, I just mean how you emphasised your ARTS DEGREE to defend yourself. That's fine against pre-teens or anyone without the confidence to stand on their own two feet, but for the rest of us, we're only hearing you repeat yourself. You cannot get everyone to agree with you all of the time - the best you can strive for is that they all respect your opinion (if it's an extreme case, then it's their loss). Let your opinion be your opinion - that is much more respectable in the end.
Secondly, I agree for the most part. I do like the occasional JRPG - I found FFXII to be fairly endearing whenever I played it - though I do concede that I was inclined to handwave facets of the narration away on occasion with the "Eh, it's only a video game" argument. This is something I don't have to do with a solid video game. Assassin's Creed II's prologue sucked me right in from the get-go with solid atmosphere and its appropriate use of cutscenes - in an action/platformer genre, not an RPG - and Mass Effect always felt believable and consistent, no matter how fantastic it got. JRPGs do need to mature, and while there's interest in evolution in the gameplay department, there is very little in the more heavily featured narration one. And that's just not plausible nowadays.
Secondly, I agree for the most part. I do like the occasional JRPG - I found FFXII to be fairly endearing whenever I played it - though I do concede that I was inclined to handwave facets of the narration away on occasion with the "Eh, it's only a video game" argument. This is something I don't have to do with a solid video game. Assassin's Creed II's prologue sucked me right in from the get-go with solid atmosphere and its appropriate use of cutscenes - in an action/platformer genre, not an RPG - and Mass Effect always felt believable and consistent, no matter how fantastic it got. JRPGs do need to mature, and while there's interest in evolution in the gameplay department, there is very little in the more heavily featured narration one. And that's just not plausible nowadays.
you do have some valid points, and there are way to many bad JRPGS vs god ones. but still i feel this is like me bithching about FPS's or RTS's, those types of games are just laughable when it comes to story, character development and gameplay variety. Or if i where to dismember the Mario, Zelda, Metroid franchises for the same points that you are trashing JRPG's for
Was certainly an interesting read and after agreeing with a lot of your points it does pain me to say that at the end of the day it is just your opinion, can't help but feel you're bashing people who still find some minor enjoyment from JRPG's these days just because you don't anymore.
Nice Trolling by the way. The bawwing in this thread is delicious. I particularly enjoy the people that try and make fun of him but fail and look like an ass. (Virgin? Really? Is that the best you people can come up with?)
I got straight A's in lower school, so you know my opinion is totally justified. In fact, that has more relevance than your art degree, since I did at least study simple computer programming in year 9 and 10. (HTML, Visual Basic, stuff like that.) So, first point, nobody cares that you have an art degree. Second, is there actually any invitation to discussion in that wall of text? Third, this is all subjective, so you can't actually prove anything. Whether a game, or genre, is good or bad is all opinion. Now, if you were being sarcastic, which I truly hope, you're not funny. Anyway, I'm going to pretend you asked us if we like JRPG's. Yes I do. Although I don't like them more than WRPG's, I do enjoy the emphasis on story and linearity. Of course, comparing them is like comparing an FPS to a TPS. They're different genres with some similarities.
I agree.
I would rather stick a fork in my throat than watch Zone of The Enders-'s cutscenes again.
Also this.Baby Tea said:
I would rather stick a fork in my throat than watch Zone of The Enders-'s cutscenes again.
Your "Art Degree" does not make your opinion more valid just like how i study the programming,design and art creation in games makes mine more valid.
A good game is subjective.
But i will say that i find that JRPGs like all games some are good and some are bad
A good game is subjective.
But i will say that i find that JRPGs like all games some are good and some are bad
Obvious. Troll is obvious.
And what you, sir, have defined as a JRPG is simply the basic framework for Final Fantasy. They're on the 13th Final Fantasy right now, so they're clearly doing something right. But Final Fantasy isn't the only JRPG out there. It's just the most popular.
And what you, sir, have defined as a JRPG is simply the basic framework for Final Fantasy. They're on the 13th Final Fantasy right now, so they're clearly doing something right. But Final Fantasy isn't the only JRPG out there. It's just the most popular.
Ok I'l give my reasons:
1. The style is not my likeing. In this case:characters, art, graphics, UI.etc
2. In terms of combat. I want that combat is seamless, real-time. Having hard mobs and and split second in thinking my next move is enough for fun or difficulty.
3. I want that my character is extension of myself not the game. I want to make my own version of Shepard, etc dozens of wRPG heroes. Not a predefined character. I like sandbox elements in games.
4. Story for me should be likeable. I doesn't matter how run-in-the-mill the fantasy or etc world is. Matter is the way its formed into storyline. The whole doesn't amaze me the details do.
1. The style is not my likeing. In this case:characters, art, graphics, UI.etc
2. In terms of combat. I want that combat is seamless, real-time. Having hard mobs and and split second in thinking my next move is enough for fun or difficulty.
3. I want that my character is extension of myself not the game. I want to make my own version of Shepard, etc dozens of wRPG heroes. Not a predefined character. I like sandbox elements in games.
4. Story for me should be likeable. I doesn't matter how run-in-the-mill the fantasy or etc world is. Matter is the way its formed into storyline. The whole doesn't amaze me the details do.
Oh you mean like, FFXII Vaan? I agree. Them japs need to invest their time and effort in areas that actually count in making a game truly great. You think what you're saying is just a JRPG problem? Guess again.Unmitigated Hatred said:
You know this guy Cliffy B (EPIC Games, maker of Gears of War 2)? He gave this speech about GoW2 being art in a developer diary (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/developer-diary-gears-of-war/41550).
Have a look. It illustrates your point nicely. Sure, they talk really inspired but hey, GoW2 in the end is nothing but a gfx whore's wet dream... a tale of "bulky men and scary monsters"....and a contemptible shell of a main character. And don't even get me started on Killzone 2 (or..."Nazis in space")...that is degeneration extreme. However, I do admit that apart from visuals people can genuinely like these games on a gameplay level(multiplayer and the likes).
IMHO the whole gaming industry is collectively suffering from "this ADD syndrome".
And that is what is wrong with the world we live in (well, one of the things anyway). A man can splash paint on a canvas like a convulsing second grader with a paintbrush and we have to call it "art" because A) somebody can write a big long paragraph about how it is their life story or all their emotions. These things are not as simple that they can be fully explained with a piece of paper and paint. I dont think something as complex as a life story can be explained fully in any way we humans have devised. Same is tru for emotions etc and B) because we need to exemplify every little thing every person does with the whole "They are artistic in their own way". When somebody says this, all I hear is "I dont have the balls to tell you how bad I think it really is." Multiply this by several years of apathy and you have the current styles of art.Pyode said:
Towards that end I gave up on art being produced these days all together. The older classics that I claim to know nothing about are much more enjoyable than most of what is being made nowadays
RANT COMPLETE.
Couple of issues with this JRPG 'review':
- Seriously, what's with all the f-bombs?
- That's pretty....self-righteous. Yay an Art Degree, I can make most of those points without an Art Degree. Except for the kabuki part, that's an interesting angle I never thought of.
Ok, now that's out of the way, I still agree with most of it, especially what you said about story and gameplay being separated so much (as Yathzee put it, by a brick wall lined with tigers). I never understood why they still do that, I still can't phantom in the life of me why they still insist on random monster spawns. It must be Japan's obsession with tradition.
But I'm cool with turn-based combat, I'm cool with random monster spawns, IF it all makes sense. But in 90% of the JRPG's, it does not make sense and it appears to be there just because that's what JRPG's are apparently supposed to do. Take the Pokemon games, they had random monster spawns but they made sense. Pokemon hide in tall grass, and since the grass is high, you probably won't see what Pokemon is coming your way. That's an example how even a basic JRPG mechanic can be done well, but most of the times they're indeed not done right, and that's a damned waste.
JRPG's are apparently about story and characters, and he presents arguments why the mechanics used by most JRPG's fail to present the story and characters properly, at least for the masses, and thus don't connect. I don't think it's without reason that a lot of JRPG's are not imported from Japan and that they're barely if ever are topselling games in the West.
Also, they don't make an effort of making you care about the characters, they often just...present them, all of a sudden, poof, and demand that you care. Fighting random monsters which has nothing to do with the story, your characters are defined by massive spreadsheats, not personality, that sort of thing.
Then there is the way of narrating a story, which is where the barrier comes in. It's usually completely told through cut-scenes and barely translates to the actual game world. Take, say, Enchanted Arms. I remember an amazing cutscene, looked awesome I can't argue with that, but you see nothing even remótely like that actually during the actual gameplay. How am I supposed to care about the story then?
- Seriously, what's with all the f-bombs?
- That's pretty....self-righteous. Yay an Art Degree, I can make most of those points without an Art Degree. Except for the kabuki part, that's an interesting angle I never thought of.
Ok, now that's out of the way, I still agree with most of it, especially what you said about story and gameplay being separated so much (as Yathzee put it, by a brick wall lined with tigers). I never understood why they still do that, I still can't phantom in the life of me why they still insist on random monster spawns. It must be Japan's obsession with tradition.
But I'm cool with turn-based combat, I'm cool with random monster spawns, IF it all makes sense. But in 90% of the JRPG's, it does not make sense and it appears to be there just because that's what JRPG's are apparently supposed to do. Take the Pokemon games, they had random monster spawns but they made sense. Pokemon hide in tall grass, and since the grass is high, you probably won't see what Pokemon is coming your way. That's an example how even a basic JRPG mechanic can be done well, but most of the times they're indeed not done right, and that's a damned waste.
I was still going to play that game, now I do know. Thanks for spoiling an apparently great game *thumbs up*Unmitigated Hatred said:
I disagree. What he's basically saying is: JRPG's are trying to focus on a certain thing, but they do it in a horribly flawed way. A more suitable comparison would be bitching about FPS' that, say, focus all on destruction but simply fail to have proper destruction mechanics.Industrial-strenght Fan said:
JRPG's are apparently about story and characters, and he presents arguments why the mechanics used by most JRPG's fail to present the story and characters properly, at least for the masses, and thus don't connect. I don't think it's without reason that a lot of JRPG's are not imported from Japan and that they're barely if ever are topselling games in the West.
That's what the OP explained. In JRPG's, there is often a rock solid barrier between gameplay and story, that completely derives me of any care and immersion.TheButtonMashEffect said:
Also, they don't make an effort of making you care about the characters, they often just...present them, all of a sudden, poof, and demand that you care. Fighting random monsters which has nothing to do with the story, your characters are defined by massive spreadsheats, not personality, that sort of thing.
Then there is the way of narrating a story, which is where the barrier comes in. It's usually completely told through cut-scenes and barely translates to the actual game world. Take, say, Enchanted Arms. I remember an amazing cutscene, looked awesome I can't argue with that, but you see nothing even remótely like that actually during the actual gameplay. How am I supposed to care about the story then?
FF7 was part of the problem that started making JRPG's the way they are today... other than that TL
R, apart from the grandia comment, that game was fucking brilliant.
Also, Hi, I have a degree in computing with a major in "Interactive Multimedia", Game design buddy, your art degree opinion means jack to me anyway [/elitism]
R, apart from the grandia comment, that game was fucking brilliant.Also, Hi, I have a degree in computing with a major in "Interactive Multimedia", Game design buddy, your art degree opinion means jack to me anyway [/elitism]