I left my girlfriend so I would never have to play another JRPG...

Nigh Invulnerable

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Unmitigated Hatred said:
Pyode said:
Unmitigated Hatred said:
JRPGs are objectively bad art
There is no such thing "objectively bad art." Art is by definition subjective.

I really never understood why people make threads like this. Trying to empirically prove that a game or a genre is bad. It's completely pointless because when it comes to the quality of art, there is no right or wrong. It's all opinion.


I also enjoy how, throughout you're entire article, you talk about how bad JRPGs are, and yet you only use two examples of bad JRPG's. One of which you admit to only playing one hour of.
I take exception to this. See, most art is subjective. Storytelling is not one of those arts. See, a dude named Carl Jung talked about this thing called "The Collective Unconscious." Basically, he said that on some deep and intrinsic level, most people actually like the same things. Its the reason we have story archetypes that cross ethnic groups, languages, and nations.

Ever notice how people can look at a painting and go "eh, not my thing?", but a huge group of people can come to a consensus on whether or not a story is good or bad, like the Star Wars Prequel? That's because as human beings storytelling is innate and universal. A bad story is a bad story. You can't just look at a real awful movie like Star Wars Episode I or whatever and go "well I can't make fun of this movie because art is subjective." It's just an objectively shitty movie for a number of easily discernible reasons [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&feature=related]. I have the same problem with most JRPGs.
Again, art is subjective and therefore judging it as "good" or "crap" is entirely an opinion. It doesn't matter if it's a widely held opinion or not, I can guarantee you there are people who love the Star Wars prequels. The reason any art exists is because someone thought it was good enough to commit to canvas/paper/animation/whatever, so who cares if someone else doesn't like it? I do agree with the sentiment that Lucas kinda bunged up the storyline with the prequels, but the Star Wars canon has been fouled up for years.
 

dietpeachsnapple

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GamingAwesome1 said:
I skim read most of this, so please forgive me if I cock something up.

I more or less agree with you, JRPG'S have more or less failed to move with the times and as such are slowly becoming more and more hated. I once was able to claim that I liked JRPG'S....not so much now.

Also, holy shit this guy writes alot, atleast it's well thought out and provokes actual discussion as opposed to pointless trolling!
I largely concur with this post though there are a few points that can be added.

By action I am somewhat immune to the entire discussion. I have never played JRPGs, and given the amount of angst (the german word - not the teen version) present around the issue I may never bother. FF7 and Grandia may be good, but so long as there are people planting their flag and declaring their unshakable stances, demanding that everyone agree with them:

if you think that Grandia was a bad game you should have all your fingers cut of and your mouth sewn together so that the world no longer has to be exposed to your idiotic "opinions."
I see no reason to BECOME involved.

That said, another reason I haven't bothered to pick up FF7 and Grandia is because they haven't impressed me sufficiently to be drawn from my preferred genres. I WILL one day play FF7 to solidify my 'nerd' cred, but that hardly counts as a vote of confidence.
 

jthm

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Allow me to condense this for all of you who are considering just typing tl;dr.

"You know what really grinds my gears jRPGs? You. Fuck you."

If that doesn't work, try this.

"grr... I had a girl friend and an opinion. Now I just have an opinion."
 

BaldursBananaSoap

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JRPGs..............I'd rather play Morrowind, Fallout 1, Fallout 2, System Shock 2, Baldurs Gate 2, Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights etc. Much better and more creative than the drivel stories with drivel gameplay that comes from JRPGs.

For example: Dragon Quest 8. The naughty and evil jester done some very naughty things in the happy town of spikey haired people land, and turned the jolly king into a frog thing. What a naughty boy. LETS CHASE HIM AND MURDER HIM! The game consists of you running ten steps, fighting in turn based battles, then running five steps, fighting a turn based battle, repeating this through a dungeon which is probably a magical airship/robot dinosaur party then fighting a water/fire/zombie/random mish mash of creatures boss battle with 2000000000 health which kills you and means you have to go and grind for 200 hours and try again.

I hate being ambushed by invisible critters. Just because you can't see a 100-foot bone dragon, doesn't mean that there isn't one three steps in front of you, poised to poof into existence and immediately chomp your face off. Random encounters are a feature that date back to when RPGs were written for technologically primitive game systems. Today's consoles and PCs are powerful enough to render enemies while also showing the rest of the world at the same time. To keep up with steadily advancing technology, since its creation, the JRPG random-encounter system has been tweaked and carefully molded in no ways at all.

Plus there are only two types of characters with the emotional stability and time-tested leadership it takes to head a group and confront the challenges in JRPG stories.

1. The dark brooding quiet type with a mysterious past and a penchant for not responding to direct questions.

You'll know you're playing with this type of a hero when the character you're playing isn't blonde.

2. The spunky optimistic kid who wears his heart on his sleeve and really wants to help. And is usually obnoxiously cocky.

You'll know you're playing this type of hero if he's been raised by a kind-hearted grandpa and begins the game by oversleeping. The weirdness of old people will have rubbed off on him causing the kid to jump at any chance to deliver anything to anyone. His eagerness to please is only matched by the emotional intensity of your actual cringe when Gramps tells you to take a bushel of tomatoes to all 25 villagers. Oh yeah, and all young heroes grow up in small isolated villages. Duh.

And nearly everything comes down to stats. The problem with turn-based combat is that when it isn't your turn, your characters don't do anything. Who goes first is mostly likely determined by some obscure statistic buried under tons of relevant but ignorable menus. But what's the point of having a 60" 1080p flatscreen TV if I have to imagine what's happening on it?

Instead of watching a battle, I'm left flipping through menus, while my guys stand in place, caught in a looping four-frame animation that lets me know they're ready for me to hit the attack button. FUCK THAT.

Oh yeah, and the plots suck ass. I don't think I'm alone on this - although I might be the only one mature enough to admit it - but I have no idea what I did at the end of FFVII. Since 1997 my confusion has only grown. Plots have gotten so out of hand that each new game is desperately trying to one-up the pack by adding even more extra twists and extraneous plot devices. There's always an evil puppet master revealed towards the closing act, the main character will discover at least one brother, someone will discover their mother was a robot and their father was a potato. Nothing is surprising, because no one knows what the hell is going on anyway. The plots are a mish mash of pointless crap nobody cares about.

Oh yeah, and man rabbits. JRPGs and tentacle rape hentai videos alike are full of stupid rabbit people. What's worse is that it always seems completely unremarkable to anyone in the game. If I've got all my facts straight, there's only one way to produce a man-rabbit, and frankly, I'm disgusted that it's such a common practice in JRPG worlds.

A big reason I play RPGs is for the chance to pretend to be someone that I'm not. Nothing ruins that faster than when the game actually forces me to stop being that character and watch a short film showing what "I" am doing. As gaming systems evolve, the extra processing power is being used to make longer, prettier cutscenes. Wouldn't it be better to incorporate more things that used to require a cutscene into actual gameplay? Recent games, such as Lost Odyssey and Eternal Sonata, have exactly the wrong idea and it's entirely possible to spend more time watching than actually playing the game. Lost Odyssey nails you to your chair with nonstop movies. Opening a door often earns you an elaborate "door opening" scene. Uncovering the next memory from your mysterious forgotten past earns a screen full of text to read. Apparently Japanese gamers would secretly rather be watching TV or reading, but just play games for, you know, the chicks

Another reason I play is for the choices. You know "ROLE PLAYING GAME." Japanese RPGs have you on rails and give no actual role playing other than saying yes or no.
 

Onyx Oblivion

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Long live Grandia 1 and 2.

3...kept the combat, ruined the rest.

Xtreme was just a dungeon crawler.
 

Eldarion

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rex922 said:
Your "Art Degree" does not make your opinion more valid just like how i study the programming,design and art creation in games makes mine more valid.
A lot of people picking on this.

I consider myself quite slow and even I got that he was being sarcastic. :p
 

StarStruckStrumpets

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Baby Tea said:
Unmitigated Hatred said:
How did FFVII get rid of well rounded and likable characters?
...because none of them were likable? Or well rounded?
Seriously, when Aries got stabbed, I couldn't care less. I think I honestly said "Wait, who was she again? The healer?"
That very remark is what I think when any RPG is done badly. I don't care about who the character is, I just want to know how much ass he/she can kick. When I care about the characters, I am truly fond of a game. Lost Odyssey interested me in this way, I have opinions on the characters, I mean, the little brats annoy me, but to be fair, I think they're meant to. Same as Eternal Sonata, while the story was a little dry and uninteresting, the majority of the characters had something about them I liked, rather than "I need them in my party in case a boss is too hard".
 

Mr.Squishy

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Meh. To each their own, although judging from Unskippable's JRPG videos there is something in what you're saying (i'm looking at you, last remnant...), but whatever. I didn't think Final Fantasy 7 was the greatest thing on this side of sliced bread, but I don't have an ART DEGREE, so anything I say is invalid, I guess, esepcially when I say I *gasp* liked FF 8 much better!

Also, you take the name of both odin and the aesir in vain, and as a viking it is my duty to punish you [/sarcasm]
 

sovietkitty101

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Thats a pretty nice wall of text you got there, now what was it about?
Seriously, try to condense your arguments so people don't have to book time off work to read them.
 

veloper

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Klarinette said:
veloper said:
It's exploration, not exposition you assholes.
hehe.

Still, dumping gamer girl was dumb.
Dumping gamer girl wasn't dumb; she was cheating and did drugs. I'da left her, too.
How very dull of you.
Sex and drugs and rock&roll! Girlfriend sleeps with other guys means boyfriend can sleep with other girls too.
 

SimuLord

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Aug 20, 2008
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I don't normally say 'tl;dr' about anything, but damn, man. That went downhill so fast after the initial hook that I had to bail out about three paragraphs in!
 

Belthalmel

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Dec 18, 2009
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FFVII was one of the worst in the series IMO, with both FF IV and VI being infinitely better. And I love how you feel the need to bring up your art degree every five sentences, nice to know your qualified to be an arrogant prick :D
 

k-maru

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lol i like how you paradied someone with an arts degree there. for a while i really did think that you were some idiot who needed to get whatever degree he found out of his ass.

good arguement too.
 

WhiteRat07

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Aug 13, 2009
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Earthbound rocked but i do prefer the western rpgs. I like the final fantasy tactics series but does that count its kinda different.
 

Bruden

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Assassinator said:
Unmitigated Hatred said:
Almost every single moment in that story up until her death is quietly building up and preparing for it, even though you never see that, and that's just genius.
I was still going to play that game, now I do know. Thanks for spoiling an apparently great game *thumbs up*
Wow I hope you're not serious. You cannot complain about spoilers if you stick your head under a rock and refuse to play something for a decade.
Here's some more spoilers from decades ago, Hot Rod is the new leader of the Auto bots, the Green ranger and the White ranger are the same guy, Neo flies away wrecking a perfectly good movie, and John McClane totally beats those terror-thieve-foreigners.
 

Cowabungaa

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Bruden said:
Wow I hope you're not serious. You cannot complain about spoilers if you stick your head under a rock and refuse to play something for a decade.
Here's some more spoilers from decades ago, Hot Rod is the new leader of the Auto bots, the Green ranger and the White ranger are the same guy, Neo flies away wrecking a perfectly good movie, and John McClane totally beats those terror-thieve-foreigners.
Not everyone had a Playstation you know, it's simple as that.
 

AndyFromMonday

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TheButtonMashEffect said:
JRPGS are great, i don't understand people who like convential RPGS and don't like JRPGS.

Because JRPGS give you no freedom in the environment.
Because the combat system is just plain boring.
Because I cannot stand the anime art style every JRPG seems to take.
Because the stories are boring(At least to me, they're boring as fuck)

What do WRPGs offer?

Freedom in the environment. "WHOA, I CAN ACTUALLY DO WHAT I WANT!"
A good combat system that isn't turn based(The Elder Scrolls really aren't the only WRPGs to walk the face of the earth).
None of that wishy washy anime BS that I have to suffer whenever I try and play a JRPG.
Better stories(Again, this is debatable and is only my own opon).
 

AdamG3691

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Nov 18, 2009
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poiumty said:
I will now count how many times you've failed in convincing me.

just elitist with an Art Degree
I have an Art Degree
I have an Art Degree.
before I had my Art Degree
And as someone with an Art Degree
One of the most important parts of getting my Art Degree
and remember that I have an Art Degree.
me and my Art Degree.
8 times. I will now proceed to substitute the words "Art Degree" with "Explosive Diahoreea" for the sake of getting at least some entertainment out of this complete waste of time.
hehehe
I just tried that, I almost had an Art Degree from laughing so much XD
 

Xhu

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Nov 15, 2009
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Unmitigated Hatred said:
If you think I sound like an asshole, take a step back for a moment and remember that I have an Art Degree. You know how the Pope never makes a mistake? It's like that except I don't have to wear a bullshit hat and I can fuck bitches.
Heh, and people are still taking "Art Degree" seriously?
 
Jun 11, 2008
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Unmitigated Hatred said:
Ok I can see first off to get an Art Degree you need to know nothing about English punctuation and spelling. By punctuation I mean paragraphs. I also see that you were not thought a single piece of BBcode. Bar bold and url links. Not to be a grammar Nazi(Ironic for saying it and doing it but) if you want to do something like this and have people take it seriously for the love of God make it easy to read. For someone with an Art degree you have no concept of the art of forum posting large blocks of text.

OT: I'll deal with what you said problem by problem stating what I thought of what you said in each problem.

Problem 1:
For starters you don't stick to the one point start off talking about story telling then move on to random combat and combat in general. This is stupid when you have it clearly marked as problems with story. Aside from that RPGs at least have inventively stupid stories compared to Western[footnote]not American[/footnote]RPGs. Although I see the point you are making about graphics affect story telling it really has nothing to with it all. Especially since JRPGs have better stories and cut scenes/CGI sequences than WRPGs by far. WRPGs generally follow a general trail of what is in Oblivion or Dragon Age with a few twists to it. JRPGs generally have you evil empire destroy then a load of inventive and creative that makes no sense on its own but ties in as an over arcing story as a whole.

If you take piece of JRPG stories then yes they are bad and awful. If you take them as a whole then they are good and you see the merits of the stupidly intertwined plot twists and points. In fact that is part of what makes a JRPG a JRPG. If you don't like it you shouldn't be playing them.

Problem 2:
First off your over use and continuing stating that you have an [HEADING=2]ART DEGREE[/HEADING] makes you look very very arrogant and self absorbed. Yes I think we saw you had one in the first eye melting block of text no need to continue to remind us. Stuff like this ruins the credibility of what was shaping up to be a decent argument turning it into a rant if you hadn't of had that atrocious topic title.

Ok I'm sorry but to go on to say a bullshit spectacle doesn't sell well and people enjoy just look at Modern Warfare 1 but more so 2(from what I have heard) this just leads back to my early point about JRPG stories. That is the point of the stories yes they are basically Kabuki. They are about the spectacle. They are about the fireworks. That is the best I can describe that is what they do that is what they are known for. The JRPG writers contrary to some other genres actually know what they are doing when it comes to stories granted some have been crap lately but there has been a lot of crap from every other genre lately so you can't just say this is JRPGs. Seriously going off your own topic with combat again? If you find it so bad add another portion to your increasingly bullshit rant about.

Problem 3:
At what I thought was starting about to be a decent rant to have an argument with and to try make some decent counter points by now I hope I am near the end of this. As I think my eyes might explode.

Once again this is something that makes a JRPG what it is. WRPGs are about extreme choice and freedom. You can explore what you, go where you want, do what you want. They are all about choice and doing what you want to do. You(ok I'm overusing it now but still) are the dungeon master basically. To go with DnD and the old pen and paper RPG taking a set scenario and putting your own personal spin on it.

In JRPGs you are the player and you do what the Dungeon Master tells you what to do. As JRPGs require a bit more imagination and constrictive role playing as you are supposed to role play into the roles set for you. This is a problem people have with them but it is the way they are and it works for a change of pace. It means you don't have to worry with all the bullshit stat development that goes on with WRPGs. It also means that you won't screw up your Character for the late game because you specialised in some bogus skills.

Problem 4: Thanks a link to a pointless period in Japanese history. Just so you don't feel left out I will also link to something completely off top and related here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cake]. Also ever notice how American games are filled with explosions, scantily clad women and unnecessary testosterone out the arse? Really you didn't you should take your head out of your arse at this point and stop smelling your own farts(yes I realize this is ironic to my previous point of ruining a good argument with such things but you really make me want to hate you at this point).

The whole point of the cut scenes and the dialogue is to give you plot and break you from the pointless action that is the rest of the game unlike American and to a lesser extent the rest of Western games. They tell a part of the story and if you read dialogue you would come to like the characters in fact Star Ocean: Till The of Time has the best side dialogue I have seen in a game in a long time due to a colourful cast of characters.

Also a lot of what you state here is just pure opinion and nothing more. You need to learn what subjective and objective mean. I'd like to know where you got your Art Degree because it certainly wasn't in an English speaking country and if it was it must have had minimum requirements for English.