It's retcons like this can potentially destroy a character as it retroactively taints all the stories that have come before it.
Queen Michael said:
Also, can I just say that it's a tad annoying when people who don't read Steve Rogers's comic book say they're upset about this change? If you don't feel that the comic book Captain America is worth your time or your money then you're clearly not all that passionate about the character.
It's one thing if you stopped reading the book temporarily because you don't like a particular creative team, but if you've never followed his comic book then sorry, you're like a vegan complaining about the seasoning in a steakhouse. Like the movies? Good, but the movie character is a different person from the comics character.
Well it worked, suddenly captain america went from one of the blandest and worst superheroes in my eyes to one of the most interesting.
I want to know more about his nazi past! Does this mean that time he punched hitler it was all a carefully orchestrated ruse with the fuhrer himself on it? Was every occasion of him fighting nazis staged? I want a detailed backstory on the planning involved and the brilliant nazi geniuses behind it all!
Even the supposed good ones, or ones used to be good have their problems. Manga like Naruto, Bleach, and Shaman King went waaaayyyy off rails, and had plots and character developments that regressed, or pulling things out of their own ass. Naruto's case did not help as the original writer left, so things got even more shit. Shaman King never lost the original writer, but he became more misanthropic after a 5 year hiatus. Leaving us with a villain so overpowered like Azien's multiple gambits, and trying to teach a lesson of how normal humans are evil at worst, or incompetent at best. And how shamans are all either good or "misunderstood" So basically, the whole fuck humanity, talk down on our audience method that never works and makes you look all the more like a conceited asshole who does not know how the world or morality works. So long running manga can be just as bad about this, which is why I always prefer shorter shows, because there is usually better quality. American comics book are just more obvious by comparison, that is the only difference. To me, the only long running good manga that remains coherent are Battle Angel Alita, and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. At least Jojo has a different set of protagonists for each part. So repetition is mostly avoided.
The reason I did not put One Piece on the list because while it's not "bad", the title is boring and repetitive; but is more coherent than most the of the manga I listed by comparison.
ObsidianJones said:
I've always hated this type of shit.
You want to turn a character on it's head? do it with your own character. Don't undo years of stories because you want to be edgy or keep it relevant. Either retire the character or keep the character to his or her roots.
Shit like the Captain America example is why I can't get in to comics. Oh, and I never want Bruce Timm to touch anything Batman or DC related ever again.
The worst thing about One Piece for me is that Oda has recently been piling too many weird ideas into each story-arc. So a mad scientist has children hooked on drugs and creates a deadly slime-monster, but then there's also a magic samurai whose son transforms into an Eastern Dragon and neither of them add much to the plot. Then a mobster with string-powers operates a gladiator ring and has a goon who transforms her slaves into labor-bots; but then there are also these fairies who want to re-conquer their homeland from said mobster and they're just joining a fight already started when a string-cage traps everyone.
Before Impel Down, there were 5 blockbuster movies worth of story where the Straw-hats arrive at a new place(s) and get on bad terms with and defeat (mostly 1-on-1) some kind of violent criminal group or tyrannical dictatorship. But it's still light-years more approachable than a decades-old interconnected franchises where ultra-shitty writers are often given free reign in one story to ret-con whatever they want or otherwise pollute the entire fiction.
Did not know about all the weird ideas Oda's had, then again, I have not read One Piece since 2008, and gave away the manga I had to charity. From what you described, all I could react to mostly an apathetic yawn to the crazy events you described. It's seems like bog standard John Carter's Mars weird than anything. After seeing the likes of Kill La Kill or Panty & Stocking, everything is going to look more "normal" or restraint by comparison.
Nick Spencer's been getting the roasting he deserves on Twitter over this particularly stupid arc. Shit like this almost killed comics in the 90s and is definitely hurting them again.
A few months back there were reports that comic book stores were complaining about Marvel's constant events and issue #0s. Apparently they are hurting comic book sales.
That sounds about right. Events and #0s take up a lot of space (and sometimes publishers even send more stock than the store actually ordered for 'free'!), because you're expected to promote them. However, there's no guarantee they will actually sell to anyone beyond the fans already heavily invested in certain characters. Meanwhile, the comics that are actually selling well (aside from manga) in the stores I frequent, are trade paperbacks from Image like The Walking Dead, Saga, Monstress, Descender and Wayward.
I feel like long running shonen series tend to be just as batshit and retcon-fellating as superhero comics because they have a similar issue in that they're intended to be written until their audience abandons it over several agonising years.
Well, maybe not "just as" but they can be really bad about it.
Outside of superhero comics, there are plenty of western comcs that are content to simply tell a story and then be done and they can be really good.
It's not really so much that manga is better but more, like you said, that stories that are never intended to end will inevitably lead to a ton of horse shit during their run.
I'm not annoyed by the twist. As others say it's comics. Things like this happen and then get reverted or retconned. I only care if the story is good or bad.
And I mean it's a cosmic cube, thing can rewrite reality backwards through time. Whose to say the story of the allies using the cosmic cube isn't the cosmic cube just rewriting reality even more.
To start with reality was re-made ground up after Secret Wars. A whole bunch of character aren't technically the same ones who died in times runs out (but for all intents and purposes they are same, just like what happened in Heroes Reborn).
Furthermore, the Ultimates made comic book time canon recently. So we know stories with Captain American in the 70's did in fact take place in the seventies. But due to the importance of the current present they were dragged latter into the timestream. So when Captain America became Nomad over watergate that happened, but in universe it might have happened during the George Bush administration for example.
So again this is "real" now, not "real" in the past and likely not "real" in the future.
Alright so... I have a slight advantage here since I've actually read the comics.
I'm 90% sure the "analogy" bit is about revisionism and Cap AS a symbol. Everyone here seems to focus on Steve being Hydra/a Nazi but I think its more about how different political groups will hold him up to represent their views of America. Thats what the "The Allies rewrote time" thing is about. The guys in charge always use Cap as a symbol of how they think America should be (think like USAgent and the Nomad timeframe but done literally).
I mean... its that PLUS how do the heroes best a Cap lead Hydra? Its a big ol Face/Heel turn which'll be ironed out by the end of the event.
I thought it was a really brave and interesting idea. A deconstruction of one of the most single-minded goodytwoshoes heroes. And also a social message about America. Very clever.
Which, of course, means that fanboys will hate hard on it until it's changed back.
Also, can I just say that it's a tad annoying when people who don't read Steve Rogers's comic book say they're upset about this change? If you don't feel that the comic book Captain America is worth your time or your money then you're clearly not all that passionate about the character.
It's one thing if you stopped reading the book temporarily because you don't like a particular creative team, but if you've never followed his comic book then sorry, you're like a vegan complaining about the seasoning in a steakhouse. Like the movies? Good, but the movie character is a different person from the comics character.
(I have the same problem with people who demand diverse comics but don't buy them, choosing instead to only share positive posts about them on Tumblr.)
Don't be the kind of person who complains about the comics he finds bad but doesn't support the comics that are good.
Jokes aside, I find this baffling as well. As someone who does actually visit comic book stores and try to keep up with my favorite characters, I always find it a little annoying when people who can't be bothered to follow any of the books or storylines start screaming about what is and isn't good for the character. I'm not a Captain America reader so I don't have anything invested. I think a lot of it is knee jerk reactions by people who like the movies and base their entire conception of the character around that and don't want it changed or influenced. I can understand that a little bit, but these different version of the character can coexist without the magnetic poles shifting. I mean just look at Batman- You've got Detective, Batman, Batman and Robin, Superman and Batman, The Dark Knight, plus the movies, games, cartoons, shows, etc etc. You didn't see any of this hoopla when
Gordon takes over as Batman in the late New 52 run
just as an example. Obviously that's not as foundation shaking as this but still, it's comics- nothing is permanent.
I will say though, whenver I get a look at a few pages from a Marvel book I'm reminded why I primarily buy DC stuff. In your opinion is Marvel really in as rough shape as a lot of people say? What are some quality books I might want to check out?
...You know what, that's a question - who the fuck is this arc for anyway? The only people I've seen praising the move aren't quite whom I'd try to curry as a long-term audience for a hero that punches Nazis, if you catch my drift, so I'm just wondering... who is it for? It's not for newcomers, and it's not for veterans, so... yeah. Is it just Spencer jerking off for a year and a half?
For the critics mostly, they had hoped the signal boost from a critic's glowing review will help boost sales and critics love melodramatic shit sandwiches with a side of political wankery as the sauce. Preferably when they use supervillains as metaphors for the usual suspects.
...You know what, that's a question - who the fuck is this arc for anyway? The only people I've seen praising the move aren't quite whom I'd try to curry as a long-term audience for a hero that punches Nazis, if you catch my drift, so I'm just wondering... who is it for? It's not for newcomers, and it's not for veterans, so... yeah. Is it just Spencer jerking off for a year and a half?
For the critics mostly, they had hoped the signal boost from a critic's glowing review will help boost sales and critics love melodramatic shit sandwiches with a side of political wankery as the sauce. Preferably when they use supervillains as metaphors for the usual suspects.
I thought it was a really brave and interesting idea. A deconstruction of one of the most single-minded goodytwoshoes heroes. And also a social message about America. Very clever.
Which, of course, means that fanboys will hate hard on it until it's changed back.
Characters get rewritten ALL THE TIME to the point of ridicule. Why's Cap America any different now?
There was a time Wolverine's origins were that he really was a mutant wolverine.
Spider-Man summoned the devil.
Doc Ock married aunt May.
Batman used guns.
The Riddler was old and creepy.
The Riddler was young and sexy.
Brainiac was a robot.
Brainiac was a living being.
The Scarecrow was a whimpy nerd.
The Scarecrow was a martial arts master.
I could go on and on and on and on!
So now we also have:
Cap America was Hydra's enemy.
Cap America was Hydra's hero.
Nick Spencer's been getting the roasting he deserves on Twitter over this particularly stupid arc. Shit like this almost killed comics in the 90s and is definitely hurting them again.
A few months back there were reports that comic book stores were complaining about Marvel's constant events and issue #0s. Apparently they are hurting comic book sales.
That sounds about right. Events and #0s take up a lot of space (and sometimes publishers even send more stock than the store actually ordered for 'free'!), because you're expected to promote them. However, there's no guarantee they will actually sell to anyone beyond the fans already heavily invested in certain characters. Meanwhile, the comics that are actually selling well (aside from manga) in the stores I frequent, are trade paperbacks from Image like The Walking Dead, Saga, Monstress, Descender and Wayward.
Events usually sell, for comic book publishers that is what matters, but for individual comic stores, events over a long period of time tend to push down sales of other titles as the focus narrows and story lines are consolidated. In marvels case there's also some event fatigue setting in, with secret empire coming right on the heels of Civil War II and the big X-Men vs Inhumans story and quite a few other event stories leading in to those two, which throws all kinds of wrenches in to people's pull lists if they don't know which heroes or series are even going to come out of the event intact.
On the plus side, Marvel seems to recognize this and in the interviews leading up to Secret Empire Are talking about how this is the last event for the next 18 months or so. Which makes sense as they seem to be setting up this arc as a big good guys versus bad guys slug fest that will reunite the various hero teams after civil war and the Xmen/Inhimans fight basically returning things to a baseline clear good guys versus clear bad guys approach. So the various hero centered lines can return to their own contained story lines, basically the heroes unite, slap down hydra, and we get the next year and a half of independent storylines rather than trying to tie 90% of their lines into the existing event or global storyline. Not unprecedented as comics tend to try and go back to individual stories and slice of life after major events,but it's probably reassuring for comic shops that Marvel is confirming that they are taking a break from events after this one.
Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.
So I neither read, nor watch Captain America, and I can't take the concept seriously either so I don't blame any of you for not caring about what I have to say. But that sounds like textbook plothole spawning bullshit. It is basically an in universe retcon. I suppose the result might be interesting, but cosmic cubes rewriting the past are the sort of explanation that can explain anything and create the feeling that nothing abides by any causality anymore.
Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.
So I neither read, nor watch Captain America, and I can't take the concept seriously either so I don't blame any of you for not caring about what I have to say. But that sounds like textbook plothole spawning bullshit. It is basically an in universe retcon. I suppose the result might be interesting, but cosmic cubes rewriting the past are the sort of explanation that can explain anything and create the feeling that nothing abides by any causality anymore.
That ship sailed in the 60's, the cosmic cube is just one reality rewriting device in Marvel/DC that has been around for decades. Comics have always had a shaky relationship with causality due to their cyclical nature and their timeframe, since they are always supposed to exist in a modern timeframe but the heroes also can't age noticeably. For Marvel the past has always been a mess of retcons and contradicting reality on a timescale that constantly shifts forward without being shown, I.e. The location/war and year iron man creates his first suit is always shifting with barely a mention besides a line of dialogue confirming that he was captured in Vietnam/the gulf war/ the war on terror/etc. the relationship with causality is tenuous at best. That's part of the reasoning Marvel used for launching the Ultimates universe, so they could show more realistic causality in a superhero world without having to rely on the shaky foundation that was the baseline universe, where even then years ago canon was plagued with time travel, reality rewriting, in universe retcons and completely contradicting past events.
As a present plot device it's been done before, and sometimes even more half assed than this, Mephisto being interested in Spider-Man's marriage is a bigger leap in logic than a villain Who's tried to turn their nemesis in the past finally finding a device to do so, well, again, not the first time red skull has found something similar, Axis was pretty much all about him turning people's morality around with psychic powers.
Part of this is writers fault, they have ideas but due to the labyrinthine nature of comics canon they cop out and use easy devices to force the story where they want it to go, part of it is also the readers fault for demanding that superheroes be an unending snapshot of the contemporary modern day always advancing in society but leaving the heroes stuck at their ages of introduction with constantly shifting histories that make concrete causality and canon impossible. Even non or casual fans partially drive this, those that complain about cliche plot devices and events that make no sense or ruin characters, but when the status quo happens, like Marvel's promise of no major events for 18 months after Hidden Empire ends in August, and the runs return to standard short story lines of bad guys versus good guys, they don't pick the stories up in any great quantities so we get left with the "events and twists drive sales up temporarily" mindset.
For whatever people may think of MovieBob, he was right about one thing, comics are very weird indeed, and it's not just the companies that perpetuate this, the fans help keep this odd cycle of questionable causality and continuity alive.
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