I Think I've Reached A Boiling Point When It Comes To Social Justice
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1....Yeah you got me there. Truth be told I probably shouldn't have gone there in the first place. Sorry.Sexual Harassment Panda said:
2. As an Irish American who thinks booze tastes like piss and is firmly pro-gun control...not really. Some Irish are like that, some Americans are like that, but thinking they're all like that is taking the easy way out and giving overly simplistic descriptions
3. True...I get in a bad mood when I get into this arguments...it's like drugs, nothing good comes out of it but I keep going back in.
Again sorry.
Not sure our expectancy is all that meaningful when it comes to safety. We expect people to be good, we have a system in place to deal with those who aren't... Yet problems persist.Darwinism said:
Are you offended by the "don't drink and drive" campaigns? 'Cause, you're an adult, adults drive, and you know not to drink and drive, right?
Your insistence in wrongly paraphrasing peoples arguments is funny. How does "there are ways to reduce risk" become "Just don't get into a situation where someone else forces themselves on you, that works I hear!"? It's some impressive spin to make concerned people sound like monsters.
Don't know what to do with this information really. "Some people have fucked up views". Got it.thaluikhain said:
Nice talking to you.
My mother respects my intelligence. Honestly... Why assume the worst meaning all the damn time? Is the "don't be condescending to me!" thing just born of laughable insecurity or something? I don't know where this arsey, anti-social bullshit comes from. Enlighten me...LifeCharacter said:
It's perfectly acceptable, in my social experience, to remind a person to be vigilant and look out for themselves. I've done it to friends and family, and I've had it in return. Even if it's only "don't do anything stupid, yeh?". It's met with thanks for the concern, not "uh, God! Stop being condescending. I'm big and strong and know it all!"
Complacency does happen to people, to smart people, to dumb people... To people! Sometimes... It's an invitation for bad shit to happen. Why would people take that concern and throw it back in a persons face? It makes no sense to me.
"Being out late alone is dangerous" in no way means "it's your fault if someone wrongs you". Come on, be serious... Stop making cartoon villains out of everyone that doesn't accept your ideas.
I realise this'll make me unpopular(read: more unpopular), but it just comes off as petulant brattery(probably not a word, but should be one) to me.
LifeCharacter, this isn't all aimed at you. I apologise if it comes off that way. You've been respectful enough. I have 4 people talking to me, and... you know.
"And the thing about people still doing it even though they know it's a bad idea is that sometimes you don't have a choice. If you work at night and don't own a car, what exactly are you supposed to do? Just hide out somewhere until dawn? It's the same for people who talk about "dangerous neighborhoods" because some people actually live in said neighborhoods and have to walk through them."
No issue with any of this. There are good reasons and bad reasons to find yourself in the riskier scenarios. It just... Doesn't make the advice not right.
- Panda xoxox
You just went up in my estimations.erttheking said:
For the record... I was joking on point no. 2, you know?
Poe's law. Damn near impossible to tell without a person's tone and body language.Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I often discuss social (justice) issues with my friends. Sometimes it's to vent some frustration and get that out of the way, sometimes it's simply because I enjoy explaining things to people who don't know about them, and sometimes it's just fun to make a mockery out of people I believe are in the wrong. It's with friends; it's casual and fun.
But there's this one friend who, as good a friend as he is, has no debating skills whatsoever. When he butts in, casual chats have a way of turning into frustrating arguments where everyone else keeps telling him how he's wrong, but he just keeps going on with his logical fallacies.
Then, when it becomes too much, he tells me that my investment in feminism and LGBTQ issues is making me bitter. He doesn't see that he is the one who's making me angry, and that when I bring these issues up to begin with I'm not doing it in a fit of rage or anything. In reality I come in with a smile and an eyeroll.
I'm thinking this is pretty common. People passionate about these issues are often misread as being angry. Likewise, people seem to often read criticism of a behavior as some sort of personal attack (or even a threat), which leads to volatile reactions against Tropes vs Women, Critical Miss, Jimquisition, etc.
Eh, I'm not even sure where I was going with this. People should just think carefully about if they're properly reading another person's intent, I guess? This isn't entirely on topic with the original post, but I think it fits into the more recent discussion.
But there's this one friend who, as good a friend as he is, has no debating skills whatsoever. When he butts in, casual chats have a way of turning into frustrating arguments where everyone else keeps telling him how he's wrong, but he just keeps going on with his logical fallacies.
Then, when it becomes too much, he tells me that my investment in feminism and LGBTQ issues is making me bitter. He doesn't see that he is the one who's making me angry, and that when I bring these issues up to begin with I'm not doing it in a fit of rage or anything. In reality I come in with a smile and an eyeroll.
I'm thinking this is pretty common. People passionate about these issues are often misread as being angry. Likewise, people seem to often read criticism of a behavior as some sort of personal attack (or even a threat), which leads to volatile reactions against Tropes vs Women, Critical Miss, Jimquisition, etc.
Eh, I'm not even sure where I was going with this. People should just think carefully about if they're properly reading another person's intent, I guess? This isn't entirely on topic with the original post, but I think it fits into the more recent discussion.
I really don't know where you got that idea from, if anything, I see MRAs and anti-feminists as the ones who can never concede a point to the feminist side, while I have seen the feminist side as the one to concede points like "Some feminists are not for equality, some are trans-phobic bigots, some are anarchic Communists, some really are man haters. And men have problems too, some men do get raped and some men do want custody of their children in the case of divorce" I see this compared to a majority of MRAs thinking date rape, is not rape, the pay gap between men and women, whether small or not, is not a big problem, and that the women around Elliott Rodger were "friend zoning" him. If you are wondering where I see this, I don't really go on Facebook or Tumblr and see it more so on some smaller YouTube channels, and if you would like examples, I could show you them.BigTuk said:
I've read through enough relevant threads to know that that's a fraction true.LifeCharacter said:
There's stupid, unrealistic, unhelpful advice(still mostly well-intentioned). And there's perfectly good advice(of relative, not absolute helpfulness) that seem to both be met with the same overzealous reaction. I get tired of it, and I understand when others say they get tired of it. Shaming is the go-to reaction far too often to reading something disagreeable.
Frankly, shame on the shamers. You're not awesome, you suck.
Again... Not aimed at you. I remember having fun on these forums, once upon a time... The fuck happened to that?
By which logic, it's 'victim blaming' to suggest precautions against literally any crime that exists? Are you for real?Darwinism said:
@BigTuk: I have a HUGE time thinking that is true, I saw a whole video series deconstructing MRAs and anti feminists and I read a comment that essentially said "All MRAs are anti feminists, but not all anti feminists are MRAs" from a person who claimed to be an MRA. I'm sorry, but the way he wrote that comment, it made it seem like MRAs are just a construct to do nothing but ***** about feminism and be an antagonist to feminism and be specifically made to halt its progress and points. That's what I see from MRAs, mostly just a large group of anti feminisst trying (and often times failing) using feminist arguments to make it look like they are an oppressed group, just like how I see many Christians and white people see themselves as being oppressed group. These videos I watched recently really reinforce what I have believe for he last few weeks when I got into this topic, but I guess you can comment on them. I really am open to change, but I don't think I'll ever take the movement seriously if it seems like the whole group is made of butthurt men, where I see feminism as a WIDE array of opinions, I even disagree with what Anita Sarkeesian says for what could be argued as feminist reasoning. Also, feel free to link or share screenshot of what you have seen or deconstruct what I or what my sources say.
Here are the videos:
and here:
If the videos are too long, please try to go to the site, find them, and hopefully play them in 150 % or 200 % speed.
Here are the videos:
and here:
If the videos are too long, please try to go to the site, find them, and hopefully play them in 150 % or 200 % speed.
Now, believe me when I say I'm not at all aligned with either MRAs or feminists, but why when I see videos online or meet feminists who hate men (the "castrate all men type") a valid argument "Not all feminists are like that" but you watch two videos on MRAs, both from the same person, and it's completely safe to conclude "all MRAs are like that"?Atlas said:
I'm not trying to defend the group; I really don't care about them outside of whatever Karen Straughan is up to (and even then, I hardly follow her). I'm merely pointing out what I see as a logical deficiency.
@Weaver: The second video was more as an extension of the first, I wasn't really saying these were 2 completely different sources on the subject, but I felt I needed to include both because I thought both had things to say. As for your other thing, I can't find an MRA who isn't anti feminist, I see their actual desire for "rights" as something they think is secondary. Find me an MRA, taking the badge of of honor as an MRA, who says he is not an anti feminist, and that he agrees with something feminists say, and what that thing is he agrees to. Here is my example of feminists helping an MRA cause, better than an actual MRA would:
Granted, MRAs may be a much smaller, much younger group than the banner of feminism, it's pretty clear it is, but you already saw what the leaders of the group have said from those videos I showed you. Oh, by the way, these videos aren't what made me think "All MRAs are like this" me only coming across MRAs that care more about whining about Anita Sarkeesian and Rebecca Watson and feminism over the actual "rights" in their movement's name is what makes me think they are like that. You don't even need to do that little challenge I gave you, although it would be appreciated, but just to show me an MRA who just doesn't talk about feminism and doesn't think it is/will impede on their causes (which, if the goals are good, it won't by all feminists), who legitimately is fighting for men's rights. I will be waiting for your response, I really think the structure of our society and government can produce losers on both sides. And if you think that feminism inherently challenges men's rights like secularism does state religions and vice-versa, please, give an example of such rights feminists would not want men to have. Thank you.
Granted, MRAs may be a much smaller, much younger group than the banner of feminism, it's pretty clear it is, but you already saw what the leaders of the group have said from those videos I showed you. Oh, by the way, these videos aren't what made me think "All MRAs are like this" me only coming across MRAs that care more about whining about Anita Sarkeesian and Rebecca Watson and feminism over the actual "rights" in their movement's name is what makes me think they are like that. You don't even need to do that little challenge I gave you, although it would be appreciated, but just to show me an MRA who just doesn't talk about feminism and doesn't think it is/will impede on their causes (which, if the goals are good, it won't by all feminists), who legitimately is fighting for men's rights. I will be waiting for your response, I really think the structure of our society and government can produce losers on both sides. And if you think that feminism inherently challenges men's rights like secularism does state religions and vice-versa, please, give an example of such rights feminists would not want men to have. Thank you.
I avoid facebook like the plague for that reason. I like watching the people get bent out of shape but when they start targeting rather then shooting blanks into the sky, that's when it crosses the line.
You say that as if that wasn't constantly going on, and if it would solve the problem.AJ_Lethal said:
That is never not happening, social justice types are forever condemning other social justice types. Supporters of trans rights fight with Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists, LGBT supporters fight with people that think only the G counts, womanism was formed as a response to racist feminists (and possible sexist race activists to an extent).
Go on more or less any social justice website and you'll see articles attacking over social justice websites.
Most respectful people that use the term "social justice warrior" don't use it in a way to demean a point of view but in cases where it seems people are advocating a viewpoint that is clearly so far outside their personal frame of reference that it can only be for the purpose of boosting ones own self esteem or ego.
Also in some cases people use it to insult a person for the insulting way the person is arguing their viewpoint, usually by means of vitriolic use of fallacy and utter incredulity that opposing view points or evidence can be brought forth by anyone who isn't a monster/racist/sexist/homophobe.
On the other hand this is the internet and it is a catch phrase so it spreads like wildfire and ends up being used by the dregs of the internet for...whatever it is that they do for whatever reason they do it for.
Ill admit it, I have used the term and the people that I used it for didn't fail in proving that the term was fitting. Its to bad the term is so misused/overused to the point that it carries no weight behind it anymore.
OT: The day people stop bickering back and forth about social justice issues is the day there is only one person left alive on the planet therefore I see all these arguments as an indication that peoples lives are going so well that they have free time to sit and bicker about trivial matters all the time. I you get tired of defending your point just bow out for a while, someone will pick up where you left off.
Also in some cases people use it to insult a person for the insulting way the person is arguing their viewpoint, usually by means of vitriolic use of fallacy and utter incredulity that opposing view points or evidence can be brought forth by anyone who isn't a monster/racist/sexist/homophobe.
On the other hand this is the internet and it is a catch phrase so it spreads like wildfire and ends up being used by the dregs of the internet for...whatever it is that they do for whatever reason they do it for.
Ill admit it, I have used the term and the people that I used it for didn't fail in proving that the term was fitting. Its to bad the term is so misused/overused to the point that it carries no weight behind it anymore.
OT: The day people stop bickering back and forth about social justice issues is the day there is only one person left alive on the planet therefore I see all these arguments as an indication that peoples lives are going so well that they have free time to sit and bicker about trivial matters all the time. I you get tired of defending your point just bow out for a while, someone will pick up where you left off.
This is deeply, deeply disturbing to me, for completely the opposite reasons. It seems to me that everywhere I turn on the Internet I see people complaining about man-hating ultra-feminists, the gay agenda taking over the world, or white people being cruelly persecuted by everyone. It seems that in many sections of the Internet people are actually beginning to believe the bullshit nonsense that states that straight white men are the most persecuted social group in the world.
If you live in the real world, you know what bullshit that is. If you don't live in the real world... well, I guess that's why some people cling to their dodgy Internet-assembled philosophies.
If you live in the real world, you know what bullshit that is. If you don't live in the real world... well, I guess that's why some people cling to their dodgy Internet-assembled philosophies.
Social Justice Warriors are simply people who stared into Nietzsche's abyss for too long. The boost of their self-importance in a digital context compared to their relative real-life social standing doesn't help, too.