If DeSantis wins

Casual Shinji

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This is what happens when you make a political party all about fear mongering and rage engagement - these ghouls need to out-ghoul one another to remain in the spotlight of their constituents. And DeSantis obviously going for the presidency needs to be king ghoul.
 
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Cheetodust

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Alright, now apply that to your own perspective.
Which power you talking about? The power for a teenager to get an abortion after being raped? The power for queer people to openly and publicly be themselves? What power do you think the left are aftwr exactly?

Get off your moral high horse. You support an organisation with a horrendous track record of raping and harming and killing children because you're a hateful biggot and you care way more about hating queer people than protecting children.
 
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tstorm823

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Which power you talking about?
The power to completely rewrite society. Many on the left see a world with problems and blame those on the structures of society we have (like you did in response to me), and thus imagine that transgressing against those structures is a form of progress. Many of those transgressions are utterly pointless. Is there any good reason to support drag queen story hour? Or is it just a display of power, saying "your society is dead, your standards mean nothing, we write the rules now." Do you think there is literally a single person who is genuinely helped by their use of neo-pronouns, or is it just exertion of force on the behaviors of others? So many of these odd cultural things read as "we hate we society, we do not comply, and we're gonna make people cater to us now." It's about power.
 

Cheetodust

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The power to completely rewrite society. Many on the left see a world with problems and blame those on the structures of society we have (like you did in response to me), and thus imagine that transgressing against those structures is a form of progress. Many of those transgressions are utterly pointless. Is there any good reason to support drag queen story hour? Or is it just a display of power, saying "your society is dead, your standards mean nothing, we write the rules now." Do you think there is literally a single person who is genuinely helped by their use of neo-pronouns, or is it just exertion of force on the behaviors of others? So many of these odd cultural things read as "we hate we society, we do not comply, and we're gonna make people cater to us now." It's about power.
Yeah so you're just a scared little conservative who doesn't want to understand people different from him and wants them to go away. Sounds about right. Why should gay people allowed get married? Why should women be allowed get an education? Why should priests be made to stop forcing themselves on children? Oooh the scary lefties are rewriting society. Is there a reason to be against drag queen story hour? The reason to defend it is freedom. But you don't care about that because "grooming" or some shit but you support an organisation that fucks children and protects people who fuck children because you support actual, for real child fuckers because you're not against child fucking you're against queer people.
 

Casual Shinji

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Is there any good reason to support drag queen story hour? Or is it just a display of power, saying "your society is dead, your standards mean nothing, we write the rules now."
How is supporting drag queen story hour the same as claiming social standards are dead? Unless you think something as utterly harmless as a drag queen reading a story to kids is the death of society. I mean, I know your answer to that obviously, but this is why we fight to support it, and gay people, and trans people, and pronouns; it's something that causes no harm to anyone, only helps people, has no bearing on your life whatsoever other than your personal beliefs, and yet you (and people like you) seek to stomp it out and force people to lead a life they don't want to at the expense of their health and life.

No conservative is suffering from the existence of drag queens, gay people, or trans people. How many of the latter are suffering due to the existence and power of the former? How many women are forced to have abortions because of pro-choice? And now how many women are forced to carry and give birth (and die) because of pro-life?
 

Ag3ma

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The power to completely rewrite society. Many on the left see a world with problems and blame those on the structures of society we have (like you did in response to me), and thus imagine that transgressing against those structures is a form of progress. Many of those transgressions are utterly pointless. Is there any good reason to support drag queen story hour? Or is it just a display of power, saying "your society is dead, your standards mean nothing, we write the rules now." Do you think there is literally a single person who is genuinely helped by their use of neo-pronouns, or is it just exertion of force on the behaviors of others? So many of these odd cultural things read as "we hate we society, we do not comply, and we're gonna make people cater to us now." It's about power.
The USA, I think, has long claimed to be a free society. This means it should be a society that tolerates drag queens doing book readings - after all, anyone who doesn't like the idea can just not go.

I am not exactly sure what the objection to neo-pronouns really is. It seems like pretty basic civility to respect another person's identity. You'd show someone respect by adressing them by their correct title and name, why not their gender identity too?

Society changes: some traditions fade and new ones develop. If it does not, it dies. In the process of change, someone has to "transgress", as you put it.
 
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Casual Shinji

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I am not exactly sure what the objection to neo-pronouns really is. It seems like pretty basic civility to respect another person's identity. You'd show someone respect by adressing them by their correct title and name, why not their gender identity too?
Here's the real kicker; no one who complains about non-typical pronouns being a thing has ever had to use them. They just hate the mere concept/existence of them.
 

Ag3ma

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Here's the real kicker; no one who complains about non-typical pronouns being a thing has ever had to use them. They just hate the mere concept/existence of them.
They don't truly care about neopronouns at all.

They care about the fact that some people might not fit the normal, neat little boxes in their heads of "male" and "female" (which correspond to sex), and rejecting neopronouns is just a relatively superficial way of trying to reject any conception of gender outside their own. They think people who don't fit their male or female boxes are mentally ill, brainwashed by the liberal/left, trying to be fashonable, indulging decadent, 'pointless' transgession, or anything else convenient.
 

Casual Shinji

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They don't truly care about neopronouns at all.

They care about the fact that some people might not fit the normal, neat little boxes in their heads of "male" and "female" (which correspond to sex), and rejecting neopronouns is just a relatively superficial way of trying to reject any conception of gender outside their own. They think people who don't fit their male or female boxes are mentally ill, brainwashed by the liberal/left, trying to be fashonable, indulging decadent, 'pointless' transgession, or anything else convenient.
It's funny, I've been thinking of how the word 'friend' is a gender neutral word that no one in America, not even the most foaming-at-the-mouth convervative, has any issue using. And that while in my country 'friend' (vriend) is expressly used for men, and 'girlfriend' (vriendin) is used for friends who are women. If you used 'friend' for a friend who is a girl in my country people would probably think it a bit odd.

All you'd have to do is cross the border for a certain gender neutral or gender specific word to cause distress. Recently in my country LAKS (the national student action committee) came out with a language guide to make language at schools more inclussive and gender neutral, and people kinda lost their shit over it, one column even comparing it to communism (because of course). In that same paper there was the headline that drag queens were getting physically assaulted on the street. Guess what people weren't getting super pissed at.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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The power to completely rewrite society. Many on the left see a world with problems and blame those on the structures of society we have (like you did in response to me), and thus imagine that transgressing against those structures is a form of progress. Many of those transgressions are utterly pointless. Is there any good reason to support drag queen story hour? Or is it just a display of power, saying "your society is dead, your standards mean nothing, we write the rules now." Do you think there is literally a single person who is genuinely helped by their use of neo-pronouns, or is it just exertion of force on the behaviors of others? So many of these odd cultural things read as "we hate we society, we do not comply, and we're gonna make people cater to us now." It's about power.
You like things just as they are because they cater solely to you, and you don't want anyone else to steal any of the attention and power from you, because you think you deserve it above all others. Get over yourself, clown.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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The power to completely rewrite society. Many on the left see a world with problems and blame those on the structures of society we have (like you did in response to me), and thus imagine that transgressing against those structures is a form of progress. Many of those transgressions are utterly pointless. Is there any good reason to support drag queen story hour? Or is it just a display of power, saying "your society is dead, your standards mean nothing, we write the rules now." Do you think there is literally a single person who is genuinely helped by their use of neo-pronouns, or is it just exertion of force on the behaviors of others? So many of these odd cultural things read as "we hate we society, we do not comply, and we're gonna make people cater to us now." It's about power.
*****, Ru Paul's drag race has been on tv for almost 2 decades on basic cable and nobody gives a shit except it's fans. Drag queen story hour is "person in colorful costume reads to kids but we're culturally scared of clowns". Neopronouns are fucking 50 years old and benefit the rare person using them

It's really not that fucking deep. Defending these against the far-right's overt aggression is literally just about not letting bullies win and letting y'all dictate yet another satanic panic. No more Comics Code Authorities, no more Hayes Codes, no more Loyalty Pledges, no more Pink Scares, no more MaCarthyism.

Freedom. Actual Freedom
 

Absent

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When neonazis freak out about immigrants ruining the purity of their race, they don't present it as a side effect of migration and asylum rights, they present it as the enemy's agenda : "they are trying to ruin the purity of our race". As if anyone else cared about that fetishized aspect of theirs.

So yeah, of course. "Power to make the rules".
 

tstorm823

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How is supporting drag queen story hour the same as claiming social standards are dead?
Because that's the purpose of it. There are few things the average person would agree upon more unanimously than "women shouldn't wear burlesque costumes to entertain children", but "men shouldn't wear burlesque costumes to entertain children" is definitely one of them. Like, these aren't even trans representation. These are cis-men dressing up as a sexualized caricature of a woman. It's about normalizing a taboo for preschoolers.
Society changes: some traditions fade and new ones develop. If it does not, it dies. In the process of change, someone has to "transgress", as you put it.
This is true. And it can be justified or even moral to transgress against society to accomplish something good or build a better society. The problem is not that going against established norms is inherently bad, the problem is that many act as though going against established norms is inherently good, and the vast majority of the time is isn't good. Traditions don't come from nowhere, people do things certain ways typically for good reason.
You like things just as they are because they cater solely to you.
I don't like things just as they are, things don't cater solely to me, and I would like things even less if they did cater solely to me. But I'm not so silly as to think whatever arbitrary standards I can imagine are going to be better than what millennia of human interactions has produced, and decide my will should be enforced over all of it.
 

Buyetyen

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Freedom. Actual Freedom
Problem being that conservatives seem to prefer the illusion of freedom to the real thing. Think about it. They've convinced themselves guns make them freer, but at the cost of a country with regular massacres. They're opposed to building more trains and other public transit because they'd rather commute in their car, which they have to purchase, maintain, insure and constantly refuel over a long period of time. They want the freedom to choose schools, in a privatized system that's rigged against them. Probably the greatest propaganda coup the Republicans ever pulled was convincing their base they wanted to be less free.
 
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Ag3ma

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This is true. And it can be justified or even moral to transgress against society to accomplish something good or build a better society. The problem is not that going against established norms is inherently bad, the problem is that many act as though going against established norms is inherently good, and the vast majority of the time is isn't good. Traditions don't come from nowhere, people do things certain ways typically for good reason.
Okay, but you're still going to have to explain to me precisely what the harm is of men wearing traditionally women's clothing reading books to children, or using gender neutral (well, non-binary) pronouns. Because I just don't really see it.

There are all sorts of ways of transgressing against societal norms might be bad, but they seem like remarkably weak choices.
 

Absent

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This is true. And it can be justified or even moral to transgress against society to accomplish something good or build a better society. The problem is not that going against established norms is inherently bad, the problem is that many act as though going against established norms is inherently good, and the vast majority of the time is isn't good. Traditions don't come from nowhere, people do things certain ways typically for good reason.
Again, just like neonazis thinking that "spoiling the race" is a goal or even a factor in asylum, you assume that "power over the rules" or "going against established norms" is its own reward - simply because it's your own taboo and everyone must absolutely find it as important as you do. No one cares. No one else but you measures a policy's worth by its deviation from what is done so far (or more precisely, from the religious dogma you avoid referring to too directly), one way or the other. People are just indifferent to it because it is a non-issue, while you go whine that "waaah they all do it on purpooose".

It's a pure projection because you're incapable of thinking outside of the framework of ultra-conservative priorities. You assume that the factors at the center of your world are at the center of everyone's world, either positively or negatively. But your stupid norms are simply being crushed in total indifference, solely because they don't weight a damn in front of genuine human issues. Because they are an obstacle to morality and understanding. Others don't go out of their way for them, neither to stomp them or to avoid them, they're simply on the way. It should be obvious when assessing the quantity of norms and activities that aren't contested and that would be if it was a goal in itself.

Problem being that conservatives seem to prefer the illusion of freedom to the real thing.
"Freedom" doesn't mean much by itself. It's freedom to do something, and it's usually at the expense of another freedom. Conservatives have their own sets of freedoms to preserve, mostly the freedom to control the skin color and sexuality of people around them, the freedom to make profit at the expense of others, the freedom to live in a homogeneous society, the freedom to shoot and kill, the freedom to grab-them-by-the-pussy, the freedom to pollute, the freedom to exploit, the freedom to indoctrinate. They are not illusions, they are real. But they have, upon other freedoms, consequences that progressives do not accept.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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I don't like things just as they are, things don't cater solely to me, and I would like things even less if they did cater solely to me. But I'm not so silly as to think whatever arbitrary standards I can imagine are going to be better than what millennia of human interactions has produced, and decide my will should be enforced over all of it.
What an absolute load of bullshit. Your entire posting history is one long screed about how people would just be happier if they were like you.
 

Buyetyen

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"Freedom" doesn't mean much by itself. It's freedom to do something, and it's usually at the expense of another freedom. Conservatives have their own sets of freedoms to preserve, mostly the freedom to control the skin color and sexuality of people around them, the freedom to make profit at the expense of others, the freedom to live in a homogeneous society, the freedom to shoot and kill, the freedom to grab-them-by-the-pussy, the freedom to pollute, the freedom to exploit, the freedom to indoctrinate. They are not illusions, they are real. But they have, upon other freedoms, consequences that progressives do not accept.
I take your point, good sir.