If someone is a post-op transsexual, are they obligated to tell the person they are pursuing/dating?

[GigaHz]

snip

I think your putting to much on it. If they didn't want to talk about their past, if they felt they had been reborn. Then I think they shouldn't have to tell, imo. Do you reveal to everyone absolutely everything about your past?

... Uh... YES!

That's the whole reason you open yourself to another being in the first place (or at least, should be). You share as much as you can with the other person, regardless of awkwardness, shame, or regret. I have revealed everything about my past to anyone I've ever been in a relationship with, so long as they were willing to listen. They too have shared deep dark things with me as well.

That said, I just so happen to attract people who share my approach to secrets and honesty.

I think most of this debate is influenced by the "I ain't no queer" type of thinking that pervades almost ever aspect of modern society. If a human being loves another human being does it really need to matter beyond that? (barring reproductive issues, ie going into a relationship knowing they want kids and you can't have them kind of thing)

Sure it matters. It doesn't matter if a transexual is over the moon for a straight person of any gender. If the other person isn't on board with the idea, it is not the transexual who decides whether or not being of biological gender matters. If that means lying to them to make the relationship last, the transexual is being selfish and in some ways, cruel.

There are people out there who are open to the idea of being with a transexual partner. Then again, I wouldn't refer to these people as 'straight' if I wanted to be accurate. It doesn't matter what a person alters on their body or what hormones they consume, genetics are much deeper than that. Do I sympathize with those who are gender dissonant? Sure I do. That doesn't mean I condone lying to preserve their happiness.

There is never an excuse to lie, other than cowardice.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

First off, try to go without using ad hominems. Second, I don't have religious motivations, nor do I have a fear of transsexuals(they are humans after all, not ghost or demons). I simply don't want to be in a romantic relationship with a transsexual. It is my choice, and I don't see what is wrong with it. If other people want to be in a romantic relationship with a person they know is a transsexual, that's fine. However I'm not one of those people, and I wouldn't appreciate being lied to and tricked.

Well we've pretty much argued our viewpoints to a standstill then. Personally I think its the human being that matters on the inside, that should really be the focus of the relationship.

If you fall for a person, then you should love that person and the outside shouldn't matter. That's my view on it, and I guess we can't move past that XD

You talk about "the inside" as if whether a person is a women or gets surgery to look like a women isn't part of "the inside". I do care about the inside, and deciding to take part of surgery so that they can look like a women, is a big part of the "inside".

Lying to me and intentionally misleading me is something I bring up because I am focusing on the relationship, I don't see how you don't get that.

I think its wrong to completely dismiss the "outside" when considering a
girlfriend/lover/wife. It shouldn't be the sole focus, but it shouldn't be ignored either.

 

[Jack Rascal]

I think your putting to much on it. If they didn't want to talk about their past, if they felt they had been reborn. Then I think they shouldn't have to tell, imo. Do you reveal to everyone absolutely everything about your past?

How do you not tell your partner something like this? How can you keep an issue like this secret and hope it will never surface? Do you tell all your friends and family who knew you before the operation that it shall never be mentioned that you were born female/male? Do you destroy all childhood pictures and school reports? Request new diplomas with your new name? What if your uncle gets a little tipsy at a family party and accidentally tells your partner that you were born female/male? If your partner finds out any other way than form you, I'd imagine that would be horrible to them. If they are fine with it, that's fantastic. I think your relationship has just gotten more honest and possible deeper. If they do not accept it, they feel deceived, lied to and maybe even used.

I think it is understandable that people would be upset and feel deceived if the topic of being a transgendered person does not come up before sex. You may consider yourself a man/woman but many do not. It is their opinion that they do not want to have sex with a transgendered person. It makes no difference even if they cannot tell one apart. Questioning this or blaming people for it is not an option really, it is their preference after all. As long as science cannot make you a man/woman completely and totally, and probably even then, there are people who do not consider transgendered as "real". They cannot see past the fact, that you were not born with vagina/penis but now you have one. I think that's the simplest way I can put my thoughts.

There is also a world of difference between a surgically made vagina/penis and one that "nature made". Surgically made may look like the real deal, but unfortunately it does not function like the real deal. I find the argument over these pages that "you cannot tell the difference when looking at one" a little silly. When I have sex, I don't just look at the genitals of my partner, I am quite keen on interacting with them. I mean no offense with this but I personally would not sleep with a transgendered person. But since I am a woman interested in men, I would notice quite quickly if not all is in order. Should a man tell me before we end up in bed that his penis is non-functional? Absolutely.

 

[D Moness]

What i find really funny i this topic is that some people are like if the dna says your male you are male whatever you do. They grab to science like what science tells them is set in stone and is the universal truth. I mean it is not like science was ever wrong :

The earth is flat
The universe revolves around the earth.
Pluto is a planet.
Dinosaurs were coldblooded creatures.
Homosexuality is a mental disease.
Children born from drunken sex are mentally challenged.
Atoms are a solid mass.

These thinks were thought of true by scientists at one time. We now know better.
Someone said i would i should avoid a career in science. I think a real scientist should question set believes and try and find out whether or not it is true not just parrot their peer because they think they are right.

 

[Dismal purple]

really is there any actual difference between say a post op and a barren woman?

Is that to be taken as a serious comment? You do realize that there is a difference, right? I hope you know enough biology to know there is a difference from somebody who gets surgery to look like a women and somebody who is born female.

I have done some checking, if the surgery is done right not even a gynecologist can tell a difference. If the surgery is botched sure, but I've done some looking and some of them look damn impressive.

If you as a lover could not tell a difference, then there is probably no meaningful difference.

Except to those of us that don't want to have sex/date/marry transsexuals.

Sounds like you have some religious/phobic hang up. And I'm talking strictly about male to female post ops (because I have no data on the other), if physically they can pass for a woman to a doctor trained to look at vaginas. Then they are basically a woman who can't have children.

Most Transgenders feel like they were meant to be the sex they get oped into, so..they are probably closer to an actual woman in mentality and temperament than if a regular man just got the surgery.

I guess what I'm getting at is, you fell in love with someone via their looks, personality, etc. during an extended friendship and then you wanted to move into a relationship with them, what should it matter what they were born as. If they can fulfill your physical and emotional needs should that be what matters?

Unless you have religious objections in which case why are you even arguing the matter?

Correct, transsexualism is probably best described as a neurological intersex disorder.

Sure it matters. It doesn't matter if a transexual is over the moon for a straight person of any gender. If the other person isn't on board with the idea, it is not the transexual who decides whether or not being of biological gender matters. If that means lying to them to make the relationship last, the transexual is being selfish and in some ways, cruel.

There are people out there who are open to the idea of being with a transexual partner. Then again, I wouldn't refer to these people as 'straight' if I wanted to be accurate. It doesn't matter what a person alters on their body or what hormones they consume, genetics are much deeper than that. Do I sympathize with those who are gender dissonant? Sure I do. That doesn't mean I condone lying to preserve their happiness.

There is never an excuse to lie, other than cowardice.

No it isn't.

The vast majority of genes do exactly one thing at exactly one point in your life and are then never used again. It is the blueprint of your being and not the result. Have you ever met identical twins who were actually identical?

First off, try to go without using ad hominems. Second, I don't have religious motivations, nor do I have a fear of transsexuals(they are humans after all, not ghost or demons). I simply don't want to be in a romantic relationship with a transsexual. It is my choice, and I don't see what is wrong with it. If other people want to be in a romantic relationship with a person they know is a transsexual, that's fine. However I'm not one of those people, and I wouldn't appreciate being lied to and tricked.

You are in the right just like I have the right to choose not to marry anyone who isn't ethnically swedish, I wouldn't make dodgy implications about norwegians though.

Hi guise I didn't read the thread.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

really is there any actual difference between say a post op and a barren woman?

Is that to be taken as a serious comment? You do realize that there is a difference, right? I hope you know enough biology to know there is a difference from somebody who gets surgery to look like a women and somebody who is born female.

I have done some checking, if the surgery is done right not even a gynecologist can tell a difference. If the surgery is botched sure, but I've done some looking and some of them look damn impressive.

If you as a lover could not tell a difference, then there is probably no meaningful difference.

Except to those of us that don't want to have sex/date/marry transsexuals.

Sounds like you have some religious/phobic hang up. And I'm talking strictly about male to female post ops (because I have no data on the other), if physically they can pass for a woman to a doctor trained to look at vaginas. Then they are basically a woman who can't have children.

Most Transgenders feel like they were meant to be the sex they get oped into, so..they are probably closer to an actual woman in mentality and temperament than if a regular man just got the surgery.

I guess what I'm getting at is, you fell in love with someone via their looks, personality, etc. during an extended friendship and then you wanted to move into a relationship with them, what should it matter what they were born as. If they can fulfill your physical and emotional needs should that be what matters?

Unless you have religious objections in which case why are you even arguing the matter?

Correct, transsexualism is probably best described as a neurological intersex disorder.

Sure it matters. It doesn't matter if a transexual is over the moon for a straight person of any gender. If the other person isn't on board with the idea, it is not the transexual who decides whether or not being of biological gender matters. If that means lying to them to make the relationship last, the transexual is being selfish and in some ways, cruel.

There are people out there who are open to the idea of being with a transexual partner. Then again, I wouldn't refer to these people as 'straight' if I wanted to be accurate. It doesn't matter what a person alters on their body or what hormones they consume, genetics are much deeper than that. Do I sympathize with those who are gender dissonant? Sure I do. That doesn't mean I condone lying to preserve their happiness.

There is never an excuse to lie, other than cowardice.

No it isn't.

The vast majority of genes do exactly one thing at exactly one point in your life and are then never used again. It is the blueprint of your being and not the result. Have you ever met identical twins who were actually identical?

First off, try to go without using ad hominems. Second, I don't have religious motivations, nor do I have a fear of transsexuals(they are humans after all, not ghost or demons). I simply don't want to be in a romantic relationship with a transsexual. It is my choice, and I don't see what is wrong with it. If other people want to be in a romantic relationship with a person they know is a transsexual, that's fine. However I'm not one of those people, and I wouldn't appreciate being lied to and tricked.

You are in the right just like I have the right to choose not to marry anyone who isn't ethnically swedish, I wouldn't make dodgy implications about norwegians though.

Hi guise I didn't read the thread.

I don't understand your analogy

 

[GigaHz]

Sure it matters. It doesn't matter if a transexual is over the moon for a straight person of any gender. If the other person isn't on board with the idea, it is not the transexual who decides whether or not being of biological gender matters. If that means lying to them to make the relationship last, the transexual is being selfish and in some ways, cruel.

There are people out there who are open to the idea of being with a transexual partner. Then again, I wouldn't refer to these people as 'straight' if I wanted to be accurate. It doesn't matter what a person alters on their body or what hormones they consume, genetics are much deeper than that. Do I sympathize with those who are gender dissonant? Sure I do. That doesn't mean I condone lying to preserve their happiness.

There is never an excuse to lie, other than cowardice.

No it isn't.

The vast majority of genes do exactly one thing at exactly one point in your life and are then never used again. It is the blueprint of your being and not the result. Have you ever met identical twins who were actually identical?

That's the problem exactly, it's a very hefty blueprint. A blueprint that modern medical science has yet to fully overcome.

If modern science ever allowed someone to transition to the point of being a biological equal to their desired gender, great. But we aren't there yet and it's still a long way to go. As it is now, Transwomen are basically men taking female hormones with breast implants and an inverted penis, and Transmen are women taking male hormones with flat chests and an ineffective micropenis.

They are cosmetically close but biologically inferior to their perceived gender. It's a tough reality but it is the truth.

 

[axlryder]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but i wanted to chime in. Should they tell them? no.

I'm sorry if that angers some people, but frankly it's none of their business. If the two of you fall in love, and deeply care about each other MAYBE. But that's totally up to the trans person. Full disclosure is BS, no one is ever 100% honest with their partner/lover/spouse. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high.

First of all, it's your opinion. Such a statement would only bother me if someone had deluded themselves into thinking they were somehow morally omniscient. Also, you're right, dishonestly plays a HUGE role in spousal discord and, in my experience, people tend to overlook the importance of really getting to know each other and being forward with sensitive and potentially volatile information before tying the knot. Even if the person isn't put off by the information itself, as others have mentioned, simply keeping it from someone could be viewed as a betrayal of sorts. What's more, many a transsexual, even the passable ones, would have to walk on eggshells to perpetually keep this secret (that's not even mentioning the multi-faceted emotional burden it puts on the transsexual themselves). From a pure relationship perspective, I can't see how keeping this information in the dark could be viewed as particularly healthy. Of course telling them could end the relationship immediately, but if the partner cared enough to leave than I'd say they're both better off and no one is having information kept from them. So, if dishonesty is the huge issue as you seem to imply it is, then I'd think that's all the more reason to drop a bombshell like that early on. Or are you a fan of high divorce rates? Honestly, while I empathize with transsexuals individuals, you don't even seem to be fully thinking through your own statement.

That said, of course a transsexual could always just figure out if the person would care or get angry and leave without telling them, that's totally an option (safety issues after all), but it's carrying on with the intention of never telling them or hiding it for a very long period for purely self-serving reasons that I find deplorable.

 

[axlryder]

Why do people ask these kind of questions??

Of COURSE you should, if you even have to ask on an online forum, you probably shouldn't be dating anybody.

Buddy, it's not nearly as simple a thing as you'd like to think it is. What's more, it makes for some interesting conversation. Please don't try and make personal statements about a person who you have almost zero information on, it only strains your own credibility.

 

[Zenn3k]

Why do people ask these kind of questions??

Of COURSE you should, if you even have to ask on an online forum, you probably shouldn't be dating anybody.

Buddy, it's not nearly as simple a thing as you'd like to think it is. What's more, it makes for some interesting conversation. Please don't try and make personal statements about a person who you have almost zero information on, it only strains your own credibility.

Yes, it really THAT simple.

Interesting conversation? It is, in my opinion, a...ahem, FUCKING STUPID TOPIC. The entire question is rhetorical.

"I have high risks for skin cancer, should I wear sunscreen?" - Just as stupid of a question.

A question is stupid, when the answer is obvious, in this case, it is. He/She is asking if they should LIE TO THEIR PARTNER, the answer to that question is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS. NO!

Also, I made no "persona statement about a person" anywhere in my post, so you saying I did, ruins YOUR credibility, so much so, I'm blocking you.

 

[axlryder]

Why do people ask these kind of questions??

Of COURSE you should, if you even have to ask on an online forum, you probably shouldn't be dating anybody.

Buddy, it's not nearly as simple a thing as you'd like to think it is. What's more, it makes for some interesting conversation. Please don't try and make personal statements about a person who you have almost zero information on, it only strains your own credibility.

Yes, it really THAT simple.

Interesting conversation? It is, in my opinion, a...ahem, FUCKING STUPID TOPIC. The entire question is rhetorical.

"I have high risks for skin cancer, should I wear sunscreen?" - Just as stupid of a question.

A question is stupid, when the answer is obvious, in this case, it is. He/She is asking if they should LIE TO THEIR PARTNER, the answer to that question is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS. NO!

Also, I made no "persona statement about a person" anywhere in my post, so you saying I did, ruins YOUR credibility, so much so, I'm blocking you.

"if you even have to ask on an online forum, you probably shouldn't be dating anybody."
clearly my entire thread was phrased in the form of a question. You were answering the OP. Thus your statement would be directed at me (as indicated by the usage of "you", unless you don't realize that saying "you" isn't just a catch all term from everybody). I'm sorry that you can't even comprehend the personal implications of your own statement.

What's more, if the answer was so obvious then this wouldn't have generated so much discussion among people who have exhibited the ability to form far more intelligent opinions than the ones you've displayed here. It seems apparent that you're merely used to looking at things from your tiny window of perspective. What's more, no one is lying. If you think the question involves someone "lying" then it would appear you didn't even understand the original post

Honestly though, next time you should consider having the courtesy to tell people you're going to throw a temper tantrum like a child when someone responds in a way you don't like before they respond. Otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time on someone who exhibits such juvenile behavior.

 

[axlryder]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but i wanted to chime in. Should they tell them? no.

I'm sorry if that angers some people, but frankly it's none of their business. If the two of you fall in love, and deeply care about each other MAYBE. But that's totally up to the trans person. Full disclosure is BS, no one is ever 100% honest with their partner/lover/spouse. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high.

First of all, it's your opinion. Such a statement would only bother me if someone had deluded themselves into thinking they were somehow morally omniscient. Also, you're right, dishonestly plays a HUGE role in spousal discord and, in my experience, people tend to overlook the importance of really getting to know each other and being forward with sensitive and potentially volatile information before tying the knot. Even if the person isn't put off by the information itself, as others have mentioned, simply keeping it from someone could be viewed as a betrayal of sorts. What's more, many a transsexual, even the passable ones, would have to walk on eggshells to perpetually keep this secret (that's not even mentioning the multi-faceted emotional burden it puts on the transsexual themselves). From a pure relationship perspective, I can't see how keeping this information in the dark could be viewed as particularly healthy. Of course telling them could end the relationship immediately, but if the partner cared enough to leave than I'd say they're both better off and no one is having information kept from them. So, if dishonesty is the huge issue as you seem to imply it is, then I'd think that's all the more reason to drop a bombshell like that early on. Or are you a fan of high divorce rates? Honestly, while I empathize with transsexuals individuals, you don't even seem to be fully thinking through your own statement.

That said, of course a transsexual could always just figure out if the person would care or get angry and leave without telling them, that's totally an option (safety issues after all), but it's carrying on with the intention of never telling them or hiding it for a very long period for purely self-serving reasons that I find deplorable.

Of course it's MY opinion, EVERY post in this thread is opinion. of course i am not a fan of high divorce rates, but WAY too many people get married at the drop of a hat, which in it's self is stupid. Dishonesty be it huge or not, is a problem every person struggles with, no one is ever 100% honest with every person they meet, even taking some secrets to their grave. I thought through my statement completely, it's how i feel on the subject, why would you question me? you don't know me, or where my "opinion" is coming from. I stand by what i said.

Some of the statements made here are based around actual fact (or at least verified claims), but more to the point, I don't know why you'd even feel the need to say "I'm sorry if that angers some people, but frankly". It's almost as if you're flattering yourself into thinking that people actually hold your opinion in such high regard that they might take it as having more bearing on the situation than the opinions of others. I mean, the OP is phrased as a question, so obviously answering one way or another is to be expected. I don't know why else you'd think the mere act of taking a side would generate animosity from people you don't even know. However, perhaps I just misread your intentions, but I just doubt your own personal opinion is going to hold enough weight to particularly aggravation anyone. Anyway, I don't really feel like debating the potentially inherent contradictions of your statement with you, as I imagine it will be a wasteful exercise in futility. It's nice that you think you've got this whole thing all figured out. G'day.

 

[Dismal purple]

Sure it matters. It doesn't matter if a transexual is over the moon for a straight person of any gender. If the other person isn't on board with the idea, it is not the transexual who decides whether or not being of biological gender matters. If that means lying to them to make the relationship last, the transexual is being selfish and in some ways, cruel.

There are people out there who are open to the idea of being with a transexual partner. Then again, I wouldn't refer to these people as 'straight' if I wanted to be accurate. It doesn't matter what a person alters on their body or what hormones they consume, genetics are much deeper than that. Do I sympathize with those who are gender dissonant? Sure I do. That doesn't mean I condone lying to preserve their happiness.

There is never an excuse to lie, other than cowardice.

No it isn't.

The vast majority of genes do exactly one thing at exactly one point in your life and are then never used again. It is the blueprint of your being and not the result. Have you ever met identical twins who were actually identical?

That's the problem exactly, it's a very hefty blueprint. A blueprint that modern medical science has yet to fully overcome.

If modern science ever allowed someone to transition to the point of being a biological equal to their desired gender, great. But we aren't there yet and it's still a long way to go. As it is now, Transwomen are basically men taking female hormones with breast implants and an inverted penis, and Transmen are women taking male hormones with flat chests and an ineffective micropenis.

They are cosmetically close but biologically inferior to their perceived gender. It's a tough reality but it is the truth.

I personally define gender by how you live your life. This is very convenient for me as I dont have to make contrived speculations about XXY Steve's gender as the answer is right there in his name.

If you wanted to discuss a strictly biological standpoint I have nothing to add. But really now, you had to use the word inferior?


You are not nessecarily gay if you date a transgendered person, gender isn't an immutable, god-given position. It's a collection of traits that forms an overall impression.

 

[GigaHz]

I personally define your gender as what you live your life as. This is very convenient for me as I dont have to make contrived speculations about XXY Steve's gender as the answer is right there in his name.

If you wanted to discuss a strictly biological standpoint I have nothing to add. But really now, you had to use the word inferior?


You are not nessecarily gay if you date a transgendered person, gender isn't an immutable, god-given position. It's a collection of traits that forms an overall impression.

You argue gender identity. It's a view point I agree with, to an extent.

However, that viewpoint is all well-and-good until someone else's gender comes into play, which relates to the topic. Gender identity is fine, so long as you are honest and open about it. Otherwise, you are attempting to fool people into thinking you are something you are not.

I'll say it again, you are not 'gay' if you date a transgendered person but you aren't straight either. I don't care how liberal your beliefs are, sex is an important part of any healthy relationship and I don't need to outline all the reasons why an inverted penis is not the same as a vagina... well, maybe it is to men who don't know how to use one. That's, of course, ignoring the fragments that are still technically male. Such as the head, hands, feet, body structure, shape, face and bones.

Gender identity is great for personality, not so great for physical interaction.

 

[axlryder]

You read WAY too much into what i say. I don't have the audacity to assume anyone gives a damn what i say, i was just giving an opinion. Also, i'd love to hear what contradictions i have stated... you can PM in you like, i am just curious, because i felt what i said. I suppose it's possible that my passion about the struggles of trans people got in the way, but i don't think so. I've got the whole thing figured out? At my age, i have had decades for form and refine my opinions/stances on certain subjects, so in that regard, yes, i do have my feelings toward the subject "figured out"

oops, i wanted to add, there are facts here? not sure what facts could be stated about the subject matter, for it has nothing to do with genetics, etc... never understood why people bring up science in an opinion/taste subject.

I thought I made it clear that I don't want to waste my time talking with you about this topic anymore. Given what I've experienced thus far, it would be tantamount to beating my head against the wall as the inevitable acts of conflating issues, debating semantics, drawing poor comparisons and employing fallacious logic arises(no doubt with varying degrees of sophistication), ultimately turning this entire thing into a circular battle of attrition that I want no part of. Indeed, in the few posts I've shared with you, it's already fairly obvious that the conversation will go down such a route. What's more, given the level of sophistication I've seen here (complete with befuddlement at introducing scientific principles and studies into social and moral issues), I doubt you have any unexplored insights to share on the matter, thus making the prospective conversation an even bigger waste of time. So no, I won't be PMing you. Have a nice day.

 

[axlryder]

You read WAY too much into what i say. I don't have the audacity to assume anyone gives a damn what i say, i was just giving an opinion. Also, i'd love to hear what contradictions i have stated... you can PM in you like, i am just curious, because i felt what i said. I suppose it's possible that my passion about the struggles of trans people got in the way, but i don't think so. I've got the whole thing figured out? At my age, i have had decades for form and refine my opinions/stances on certain subjects, so in that regard, yes, i do have my feelings toward the subject "figured out"

oops, i wanted to add, there are facts here? not sure what facts could be stated about the subject matter, for it has nothing to do with genetics, etc... never understood why people bring up science in an opinion/taste subject.

snip

good thing, as your superiority complex is a bit overwhelming

and the same to you, m'dear.