I'm a vegan and I come in peace...

[maeson]

I eat meat because, I like it. I like the texture, the flavor. It might just be that I am a moralless bastard, but I am firmly in the camp that doesn't believe that humans are in any shape or form above or separate of the animal kingdom. We are animals. Beasts who just lucked out enough with their nervous system to compensate for our lack of physical prowess and in doing so, managed to fight our way to be the dominant species on this world. Were it not us, it'd be something else.

We are also some of the most violent creatures. Male lions kill the cubs of female lions so they could mate with her instead. Humans kill each other in far greater numbers and for astronomically wider range of reasons. We are also so adaptable we could be considered adaptation incarnate. I only long for the day humanity casts aside these arcane, restricting and otherwise illogical concepts of morality and ethics, and start adapting ourselves. Improve on the design in whatever means we think best, not appropriate.

So I am comfortable with the destructive nature of our species. Some would consider such realization as an epiphany to change these brutal ways and seek a "higher" standard of living or thinking. But I, I embrace it. I am human.

"You and me baby ain't nothing but mammals. So lets do it like they do on the Discovery Channel."

 

[AndyFromMonday]

No.. 'Consciousness' is about having a consciousness.

Sentience. Derives from the Latin 'sentire' (to feel), same root as the English word 'sense'.

Except without a consciousness you can't be sentient.

Also, you're kind of wrong. Humans do not suffer a special degree of trauma, in fact the ability to repress (which comes from ego formation, not from consciousness) means that humans often react less to physical and emotional trauma than animals (through the visible medium of developing learned responses and associations)

Be sure to tell the victims of physical abuse that.

Actually, a couple of people in my city were charged with abusing a snake. It's in the paper today.

I bet it is.

No you're not. You just made that up.

It's actually socially acceptable to beat your child.

 

[Vlywncint]

I'm not a vegan but you are not offending anyone just by being one. That issue is mostly when the extremests try to single out people because of their choice. As for the reason why I eat meat ... Well let break this down into sections.
The Science part: Meat gives an already combined protien for the body to use relatively easily. By an all vegan diet, you have to combine different ingredients to create the same complex protien. It's healthier but requires a more strict diet. Some people (myself included) have difficulty getting our body to use the vegan diet to sustain ourselves due to chemical imbalances. I actually get sick if I avoid meat for too long. x_x
The moral delimma: This is one of the main areas of argument from what I've heard. Simply put, I don't care about eating something that was once alive, seeing it rot as a waste of resources. That being said, I dissaprove of the conditions that many corporations use to raise the animals and try to avoid those brands when possible. I know that it seems wrong to raise an animal from birth to die but it is growing more and more difficult to survive on the hunting style due to overpopulation. We're running out of choices. Mostly I've taken a turn for seafood but you have to be carefull about the contaminents where I live ...
I'm glad that some have found a way to reduce our impact on the system but I don't think that it is feasible to completely eliminate it.

Welcome to the Escapists.

 

[Blue Hero]

Animals taste good, humans don't, and I hate the taste of most fruits and vegetables. I love carrot and potato though. My mother makes the best mashed potato. There are no lumps at all, but she somehow makes it so it isn't a cream. Today I bought a big bag of salami. It is delicious. I'm happy with my purchase.

 

[Cadmium Magenta]

Again, having read through the replies you guys wrote *while* I was writing this, I'm sorry I'm not actually addressing individual posts. I know that I've missed out a good couple of points, but I thought this was the best way to respond concisely. Please feel free to pick apart my post at your leisure, I'll try to get back as soon as I can.

 

[DracoSuave]

Killing other life for personal survival... is it a moral question?

I don't believe so.

For example, your white blood cells kill bacteria, viruses every day. But there's no moral issue here, is there? Well, they're not of the kingdom Animalia, so it's not a question.

If pests come into your home, or in your restaurants, do you let them live? Or do you exterminate them to prevent disease? There's no moral question here, either... those pests are of the kingdom Animalia, but many of them are invertebrates, so of course... no question here. Bugs are okay to remove.

But... does lobster and crab count? Most vegans don't eat crustaceans or mulloscs. So bugs are okay to kill, but 'higher' arthropods are not?

The fact is that life cannot exist without death. Something has to die for you to live. Many many things, in fact. It is absolutely impossible to live without a trail of corpses in your wake. That's how life propogates and without that, evolution cannot occur.

To put things in perspective, I used to work in a distribution warehouse for a large grocery chain in Canada. I guarantee that animals had to die for you to get your vegan food. Mice have to be eradicated. Fucking pigeons have to be culled. Yes. Fucking pigeons. The process of protecting your food from contamination absolutely requires the destruction of invasive life. You're living in a dream world if you think that you can store food without uninvited guests knocking at the door.

There's no such thing as a vegan who has no animals dying to feed them. The only difference is that they're not eating the dead animals.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Except without a consciousness you can't be sentient.

What precisely do you mean by consciousness?

Be sure to tell the victims of physical abuse that.

I know victims of child abuse. I've seen repression work well enough to know that people would suffer infinitely more without it.

Heck, my best friend has nightmares every night. You think she isn't glad that they usually stop when she wakes up?

It's actually socially acceptable to beat your child.

This may be a little terminological, but I don't think you recognize the difference between corporal punishment and 'beating'.

It stopped being acceptable to beat your child about a hundred years ago. It's illegal in most countries. It's also acceptable to hit your dog when it does something bad or tries to bite you. That's not the same thing as 'beating' it.

Also, find me someone who went to prison for an animal cruelty offence which was not related to other criminal activities (owning a dogfighting ring or smuggling doesn't count, for example).

You also realize that we don't tend to eat alot of Apes, Dolphins or Dogs in the western world, right? So your point would be?

The point is that 'self-awareness' is a fairly meaningless milestone in and of itself.

Also, concerning the human child, see, the difference is that the child will develope it, the cow never will.

1) Not necessarily true.

2) The same is true of a foetus. Are you pro-life by any chance?

My point is that a series of very illogical distinctions are being dressed up as logic. I'm not saying that's bad, just that anyone trying to claim any kind of rationality for these decisions needs to go home and think.

Again, I eat meat. I'm not motivated here.

 

[Sordin]

We eat meat because we have been doing so for a long time now, I mean smoking or drinking alcohol are not healthy in any way but we still do it so I'll leave you with this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E
(sorry if this has been already posted)

 

[silverbladz]

How am I supposed to run a f***ing marathon if I eat not meat at all? Plus, are there really that many animals that would survive in the nature??? cuz, you know, if it wasn't for us, cows and sheep wouldn't exist... Plus, if we stopped hunting deers, for example, then they would eat all the vegetation and they would make pretty much all the other species starve to death. You know the baby seals PETA is trying so hard to protect cuz they're so cute? they can't be killed till they're adults and there are too may since polar bears aren't there to eat them so seals are eating too many fishes for the fish population to be able to reproduce fast enough to provide the food for these seals.

I'm not saying that no one should be vegan, I'm just saying that we screwed the foodchain so much that animals would probly not be able to survive if we just let nature go...

 

[AndyFromMonday]

What precisely do you mean by consciousness?

You know very well what I mean when I say consciousness. Stop playing dumb.

I know victims of child abuse. I've seen repression work well enough to know that people would suffer infinitely more without it.

Worked well enough for my cousin. He committed suicide by the way.

Also, find me someone who went to prison for an animal cruelty offence which was not related to other criminal activities (owning a dogfighting ring or smuggling doesn't count, for example).

I don't need to. There are numerous examples on the internet which you apparently fail to take account of.

 

[orangeban]

No you're not. You just made that up.

It's actually socially acceptable to beat your child.

Where do you live? Because here in Britain (and in most places in the developed world) you can't "beat" your child.

And if you mean corporal punishment, you can't do that to your child in Britain either.

 

[savageoblivi0n]

I'll be honest...No matter how well worded and intelligent an argument for vegetarianism and veganism is it's never going to change my mind. I enjoy the taste of meat, in moderation it's good for me, and other than that as long as there isn't needless suffering involved I could care less..

also, since noone's posted it yet..

 

[fulcran]

Meat is tasty and delicious. I am well adapted to eating it. I love fruit, but most greens give me stomach issues if I have too much of them.

I eat meat and I love it. Animals were created delicious so we could eat them.

 

[dave1004]

I'm a vegetarian, and I have your same views, "Cadmium Magenta". I can see that a healthy life style could be either omnivorous or herbivorous, but you all have to know a simple fact: Whilst we can live without meat, we cannot live WITH meat.

That kinda does say a lot, eh.

 

[LHZA]

Animal rights is the belief that animals should be given the same rights as humans. Animal welware is the belief that animals should be cherished, protected, and not made to suffer any un-necessary harm, but should not be afforded the same rights as humans. OP and Movie Bob are animal welfarists.
Just want to clear that up.

 

[Slayer_2]

For the record, we are animals. In some way, animals are actually nicer than us.

 

[SushiJaguar]

I'm only going to bother replying to the OP because I can't sift through eight pages of babble. I just can't inflict a migraine on myself.

Look at that. That's self-awareness. I possess a functional intelligence that warns me not to harm myself. That's instinct. Then there's morals. I don't want to treat a whole bunch of people like stupid plebs, but they are. So what am I to do? Ignore them, simple. That's ethically sound, right? Let bygones be bygones and all that.

(Just to stop the knee-jerk flaming, the first and second paragraphs aren't to be correlated.)

OP, you say we're perfectly capable of surviving off of meat alternatives and vegetables and such? That might be true, I don't know. I don't have the scientific knowledge to prove/disprove that. What I do know is that there is no way in hell that I feel any sort of satisfaction to my hunger from eating vegetables and fruit. I can consume apples and strawberries and pasta and carrots like my name was Mr. Creosote, but the sheer amount of fruits and vegetables the human body requires to match up to a good steak's nutritional content, that's a lot! In a way, by eating meats and fish we're helping to better distribute food supplies, which in an ideal world might mean more food for all, but I digress.

I'd like to take a minute and remind you that, yes, we are in fact animals. We're mammals. We're just one hell of a lot more intellectually superior. We kick the crap out of everything else on this planet with brainpower. That's our natural advantage over claws that can disembowel our tasty innards that a lion might possess. Unfair advantage? Yes. Abused by us? I don't think so. Not every animal is defenceless. Even cows aren't defenceless. They're just not as clever.

Not smart enough to out-think us, so they get put into meat-processors and consumed. It isn't just pleasure that drives humanity to eat meat. Meat isn't murder, to crack an old chestnut. Sure, we herd them all up and, for lack of a better word, slaughter them willingly to provide food, but living entirely off of vegetation just isn't viable. There isn't enough of it. To farm the required amounts of fruits and vegetables, wouldn't that take huge amounts of space that could be better used? Killing and eating the lesser mammals helps humanity in more ways than satisfying hunger. I don't feel like I should stop because the lives of other mammals are extinguished.

Senseless killing is immoral and unethical. Killing for food never is. Not iny my book, at least. So there you are, OP. Just my ha'penny on why I love both meat and fruit and even horribly veg like cabbage. Blech.

 

[yizelin]

Hi forum!

We are inflicting deadly violence on a defenseless being, simply for our own pleasure. Personally, I don't think that's ethical behavior.

I'm sure somebody has already pointed this out in 8 pages, but... animals are not defenseless. They may not all be built for "the best defense is a good offense" but they sure as hell can resist their death though against modern technology is futile for some. Defenseless would be a head of lettuce. Also, it is killing for our own nutrition.

Personally, I can't stand the green components of meals even with meat. Also, I do not find dressing it up a valid alternative for myself (even my meat, I prefer it slightly cooked just off of the animal). Also, I do fully support hunting (and enjoy it myself) as the meat off a fresh kill tastes oh so much better than the preserved meat in most stores. I also do not support the terrible living conditions that my processed meat lives in for its short time and would gladly pay a premium to have better kept (and fresher) meat. I don't let it keep me up at night though.

All in all, I do respect it when people make a decision and stick to their guns in a non-invasive way, so good on you. Most of my family heavily personifies wolves as our name suggests though and eat meat exclusively. But the way that I look at it is that as long as we aren't being pushy at each other, the less meat you eat the more I can... and the less vegan stuff I eat, the more you can

 

[Terminal Blue]

You know very well what I mean when I say consciousness. Stop playing dumb.

No, at this point I don't know what you mean by consciousness. You seem to have moved past the definition I would use, and given that it's a very difficult word to define at the best of times, asking you to do so is hardly 'dumb'.

You seem to be convinced of a magic quality which separates humans and animals and which you've termed consciousness. That's cool, I'm just not sure from what you've said what you think that quality is.

Worked well enough for my cousin. He committed suicide by the way.

I don't think any of us is going to come out very well if we continue this discussion. I'm really not cool with parading the dead around the internet for no good reason.

As I've already said, none of this is about 'consciousness', it's about identity/ego formation. Support your original point (that only human beings are capable of suffering) or don't.

I don't need to. There are numerous examples on the internet which you apparently fail to take account of.

Oh, fair enough, I'd just never heard of it before..

Your point still doesn't stand.