I'm a vegan and I come in peace...

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

I am perfectly willing to put my own pleasure before a lesser creature's life.

Even if I had to kill my own meat, I would do it. Because steak is fucking awesome.

If you are not willing to do it, fine. I don't really care. I think it's just the Vegans that scream about meat being horrible and evil that people hate.

 

[hensethe1]

animals have the right to be tasty. i'm carnivore i need tasty meat to function it's easy to digest and full of nutrients. As humans are on top of the food chain, animals only have one right is to be nutrient and tasty, they don't have any more right than that. Liberty is irrelevant for meat that we breed and slaughter or test upon.

or eat!

 

[crazyarms33]

Snip

You also have other natural tendencies you prefer to overlook. You don't rape girls just because they might have given you an erection. Claiming you deserve to eat meat because you have "canines" (very very small ones compared to true carnivores) does not mean a thing. Can you kill a running deer by biting it in the neck? And when exactly was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?

We are not carnivores. We are omnivores. We can eat anything. We must have developed this versatility when we did not have much choice when it came to food (we had to hunt or die), but now we can choose.

People saying that they do it because it's natural are just giving excuses for a weak moral line. Unless of course they don't care -- that is, I expect, most people.

Comparing people who choose to eat meat to rapists, well done there. Allow me to put it like this. Just because I choose to eat meat does not make me a rapist and being all high and mighty looking down on people from your pedastal is just childish seriously.

As I said I have no problem with people choosing to be vegetarians or vegans, I wouldn't to be one but I don't go around saying stupid comments like "You don't eat meat, you're as bad as the Nazis!" just because I don't agree with them. It's people like you who make a lot of people give abuse to vegetarians when you start comparing us to rapist.

And yes I could kill a dear by biting it in the neck, why I would even consider it under normal circumstances I don't know but yes I could and if I was stranded without food and any way to get help then maybe I'd go around biting dear.

About rape: I'm comparing a natural instinct to another natural instinct. One we have suppressed and called a crime and a taboo and the other is perfectly normal. Please tell me where my logic is wrong? I'm not calling anyone a rapist, by the way. I'm trying to make you understand that the "it's natural!" argument doesn't apply, because we have already replaced a lot of natural behaviours with more agreeable ones in contemporary societies.

Cadmium Magenta, I'm with you. I'm a vegetarian myself but admire vegans that do not make fools of themselves by being too preachy about their choices.

Prepare to be met with overwhelming close-mindedness and hypocrisy.

Last time I checked, animals aren't intelligent. There's no reason why we shouldn't eat them.

Would you eat a retarded person? How do you define intelligence? Are dogs, pigs or dolphins intelligent in your worldview?

No. They are not, with exceptions being chimps and dolphins. But last I checked very few people eat them. And how can you possibly equate a retarded human to a fish? Are the retarded humans not people? Or are people only those that are "functional" or "normal"?

I think that we have eyes in the front of our heads for a reason. I think e have canines for a reason. It's not wrong to kill animals for food it's how it's supposed to be, we're predators and if a person chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan then it's their choice. But I like animals, I don't agree with hunting for sport, testing products on animals and stuff like that but I'm not going to stop eating meat.

And yes we are animals and we think it's ok to kill them because we were designed to kill stuff to eat it...

You also have other natural tendencies you prefer to overlook. You don't rape girls just because they might have given you an erection. Claiming you deserve to eat meat because you have "canines" (very very small ones compared to true carnivores) does not mean a thing. Can you kill a running deer by biting it in the neck? And when exactly was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?

We are not carnivores. We are omnivores. We can eat anything. We must have developed this versatility when we did not have much choice when it came to food (we had to hunt or die), but now we can choose.

People saying that they do it because it's natural are just giving excuses for a weak moral line. Unless of course they don't care -- that is, I expect, most people.

It is natural boss. If you make a conscious choice to be DIFFERENT from the norm(IE: not eating meat) you are breaking the natural order. One might as well say that if you chose to only drink milk because water is a resource that shouldn't be wasted on hydration and only used for crops and if you disagree its because you have weak ethics. That makes no sense at all. As for the raping thing, yes rape is horrible. And just because a girl gives you an erection doesnt mean you attack her. The difference is you NEED food to survive. Not quite the case there with sex, though it would make life very sad. Also you ask "when was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?" does that mean with my bare hands or with tools? Is using tools against nature? Does it mean you have weak ethics if you use tools? Do you ride a bike? Drive a car? Ride in a plane? Use the internet? Wear clothes? None of that is in line with true nature, yet we do it. Does that mean that we all have weak ethics? Or is there an ethical line that makes you feel better about what you do that others cross? I would say EVERYONE has such a line in their head, and this is clearly one of those issues.

You need food to survive. That is true. However, we are choosing some of the most inefficient means to feed available. Just saying that we need food to survive implies anything that can be used as food, including other humans. So there must be a line, as you very well say. My argument is not that people that say that they do natural things have weak ethics. I'm only saying that it's a bad argument and a bad excuse coming from people that have self-contradictory ethical frameworks.

I agree, we are using many tools that are not "natural" for us to use but perhaps our ability to come up with them to suit our needs is natural. That is intelligent. Using so many resources that could be used to make food for more people, making so much meat of so poor quality with so many people thinking that they're Gaia's hunters when they're munching on a burger of unknown origin is, pardon me, not intelligent. And it's not moral either.

If you can't see the moral problems, just think about your reaction when I tell you I might have a dog burger or a cat casserole. We have become deeply speciesist.

It's certainly a bad argument, I freely grant you that, but that doesn't really change much. A bad argument can still raise a good point. I also agree that intelligence is one of our "tools" for lack of a better word, but if it is a tool we can use, much a like a gun, rake or plow why is that better? For you it may be a "smart" option but for the species as a whole it is not.
I fail to see the moral contradiction here except when it comes to personal opinion. If you want a dog casserole fine, knock yourself out just please, don't use my dog haha. Don't expect me to join you unless I am starving, but since I have the ability to hunt I would do that rather then kill a dog because dogs are useful for hunting. I see your point about speciesism but bottom line back when man wasn't ruling the world it didn't matter. Which is what our diets are based on, the struggles of our ancestors to find a diet that kept them strong and allowed them to eventually become the dominant species on earth.
When I hunt I see a deer and that's it. Bang, dead, dinner. Move on with my day. If you don't see that, it is not anyone's fault, it is simply a matter of perception. I firmly believe that I am not violating an animals "right" to life as I don't believe there is a "right" to life. To quote "What right to life does a dying man have stranded in the middle of an ocean? What right to life does an antelope have when its eaten by a lion? Whose right to life is greater, the lion's or the antelope's?" Why would I waste years of evolutionary progress to make me the top dog, so to speak, only to give it away?

 

[Mittenz]

I must say that you make a very good, and dare I say reasoned argument in your post. However I have no problem admitting that I find my appetite more important than an animals life. (I'm not a very moral person)

 

[Arina Love]

animals have the right to be tasty. i'm carnivore i need tasty meat to function it's easy to digest and full of nutrients. As humans are on top of the food chain, animals only have one right is to be nutrient and tasty, they don't have any more right than that. Liberty is irrelevant for meat that we breed and slaughter or test upon.

or eat!

haha right i forgot most important and awesome part!

 

[Vampire cat]

Animals are not like humans. For example, a chicken does not care if it lives to tomorrow... It does not concern itself with carrying on it's race in a concious way. As long as they are not being subjected to unnesessary pain I see no reason why one would atempt to "save" these animals from death. A lot of vegans seem to think it's OK to eat fish, but not to eat chickens... Why? What makes a fish less worthy of life than a chicken? And what makes a human less worthy of life than a cow? Would all of us be willing to give up half our family and friends for a green diet?

If your thinking "save the animals", dream on. 90% of domesticated animals would not handle themselves if let lose, and subsequently would die. Not that there's anything wrong with bein Vegan, fight the power and all that. I'm all for choise, but some tend to want to push this lifestyle onto others, and thats just silly. It's like turning people off driving cars. Unless you come up with a truly better alternative it's just not going to happen.

 

[crazyarms33]

Yea sorry but I'll let vegans preach and tell me what to eat when the whole world has enough food that it can make that choice, but until then you live in a 1st world country where you can afford to do whatever the hell you want with your food. But that in no way shape or form reflects the rest of the world, for many people meat is the most accessible and highest source of badly needed protein and other amino acids.
Also in terms of animal testing, I'm all for it. Why? Because it saves human lives.
Simple as that, hell if clubbing every baby seal in the world would cure one of the diseases the plagues man-kind I would be the first in line to do it myself.
In terms of full on animal abuse with no purpose, like dog fights, outright torture, yea I'm against that, but when we're talking research that can save a person's life, I'm sorry but the human life is going to take priority each and every time.
Also you can't claim ethics or moral superiority when biology and nature basically disagree with you.
Animals kill and eat other animals, that is established.
A significant majority of the world cannot and does not follow or believe that eating meat is wrong.
Sorry but your line of reasoning just isn't how ethics work, it is a consensus of society what we deem right and wrong, the minority doesn't get to decide.

This ^. 6 Internets for you.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

snip

Be careful now. You wouldn't want to fall off that high horse you're riding.

 

[Folji]

I like putting meats in my salads. Can I be approved by both sides on this argument?

No, but I'm sure both sides would notice you sitting on the fence and try to pull you into their group.

That was a joke, by the way.


To be honest, I find vegans and vegetarians to be a bit cumbersome to deal with from time to time. It's cool that they prefer to not eat meat and I'd probably fight to the end for their right to do so or some cheesy statement like that, but I don't really appreciate how I always seem to run into the sort who can't seem to respect that I like meat. Because I do.

 

[Beefy_Nugglet]

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything but seriously, it's getting old. I love meat, I'll never stop eating meat. I also see the point Vegans are trying to get across, but this argument has been hashed out so many times that whenever I see it happening again it just pisses me off. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm indifferent to the subject, but it still annoys me.

 

[Chevalier noir]

I really dont see how the whole "nature" argument works.

Yeah, nature intended us to eat meat, but nature most certainly did not intend for us to get this advanced and start building halls we pack with thousands of animals. Just saying dude.

Nature doesn't "intend" anything. Evolution is random dna mutation, the ones that just happen to give advantages survive more often than ones that don't. This concept that there is a higher order to this is absurd.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Every living thing is intelligent in some way or another.

There's a distinct difference between an animal and a human. Animals survive, we live.

 

[CrystalShadow]

I've spent a while wondering about this, but not to sound like a massive troll, but I find animal welfare arguments a little narrow-minded.

Now, don't misunderstand me.
I don't agree with inflicting obvious suffering. And Humans really need to get over themselves and their own sense of superiority...

But that's the thing; It often seems to me that our sense of empathy for non-humans is almost proportional to how human-like they are.

I would hazard a guess and say the animals we concern ourselves with most are usually mammals. - Our closest relatives, biologically.

But let's not get into that particular question, and broaden it somewhat.

What about plants? It's all well and good to look at a (frequently cute) animal and say 'Aw, that poor defenseless creature. Don't hurt it!'

But a plant can't even run away. Nor can it communicate in any manner we recognise.
I mean, it barely even registers to most people that a plant is alive. Unless you're specifically studying plants...

We eat a lot of plant matter while it's still alive... If you think about that too hard you can easily freak yourself out.
We shred plants. Cut them down with no regard to what we're doing to them, and frequently treat them as if they can't feel a thing.

But if you suggest we might be causing plants suffering, you're likely to get laughed at. It frequently doesn't even get a moment's consideration...

For that matter, we can't be entirely sure inanimate objects don't have some kind of awareness, and capacity to suffer.
Yes, it's exceedingly unlikely, based on what we do know. But there really is no way to be sure.
And if people don't give much regard to plants, they treat inanimate matter as if it's alright to do anything you feel like to it.

At the end of the day, it suggests to me that our capacity for empathy is a very anthropomorphic tendency.
We empathise with others only insofar as they display human-like qualities.

And I find that a rather disturbing issue with discussions like this. We are constantly making judgements on who and what gets treated with respect and compassion, and are making these judgements using exceedingly egotistical measures.

 

[thom_cat_]

Animals are tasty... but seriously? Why vegan? Why not just vegetarian?

 

[poleboy]

Human society is built on the backs of exploited animals. This isn't a pro-vegan statement, it's just a fact. Also, the idea that the animals most commonly exploited by humans have some sort of natural state or a right to freedom is ludicrous. Modern versions of animals like cows and chickens are basically organic machines that we've moulded to suit our needs through thousands of years of breeding and selection. They are useless for anything but food, for humans or otherwise.

This is a western luxury problem, created by boredom and generous access to resources. A starving man wouldn't think twice about killing an animal and eating its flesh. If he doesn't, he'll soon be out of the gene pool, and good riddance.

A lot of vegans seem to think it's OK to eat fish, but not to eat chickens... Why?

Either those people are idiots, or you don't understand what vegan means. Vegans eat no animal products whatsoever, dead or otherwise. Vegetarians may consume milk or eggs and similar animal (but non-meat) products, depending on personal preference. Anyone who eats any kind of meat is not a vegetarian or a vegan. At best, they are picky about what kind of meat they eat. Whether or not you support the fur industry, animal rights or have other opinions about things is not directly related to any of these things, it's just a matter of personal opinion.

 

[awakened_primate]

We can't go back and change anything but that doesn't mean we can't change now. That's what evolution is all about, CHANGE!!! Not sitting in your own filth and stupid ways until you've reached a dead end on the side of the evolutionary chain. By eating these concentration camp-grown animals that are pumped full of antibiotics and force-fed who-knows-what, we are no longer the hunter that kills his prey for need of nourishment, we're just fat pigs sitting in the stalks of capitalism. There is no more CONNECTION with the food that we eat. We just stuff it down our throats because we're supposed to eat, but what do you think led to overpopulation and all this retarded crap we're dealing with nowadays? Acting like this. Choosing activity over action. This is pitiful and low. At the top of the food chain? That's bullshit!!! We're at the bottom of the chain when it comes to living on this planet, because we're starting to act like cancer. If we keep it up, this planet will just shake us off like fleas.

We should be the PROTECTORS of this planet because we truly ARE animals, but animals kill only when they NEED it, not because they'd like the taste of meat in their mouths. That's why evolution has given us REASON!!! Without it we wouldn't be able to discern what to do best and we couldn't be able to manifest ourselves in so many ways as a humanity. But it seems this reason is also our greatest weakness, because most of us have given up using reason. We substitute it with pride and "explaining our actions", but that's not true reason. We've become lazy and let others do the reasoning for us and accept their truths as ours. The most evolved life form of the planet stuffing its face with the beings that are born only to be killed and consumed...that's not reason, man! That's just us sinking in biological comfort and not wanting to get up and evolve anymore.

And you know what? I'm not a vegan...but I'm not just because no one taught me these things when I was young and could understand faster. But I will surely stop eating meat that I don't deserve.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Where's the problem with eating cats and dogs? We don't do it here, because they're subsitute-family and hold a special place to us. And yes, that's just up for everyone to decide.

The "omg, we've to kill animals for meat" just show's me how far from reality the western world acutally lives. I've seen how a rabbit has been butchered, and i catched, killed and prepared my own fish. So what? That's how life goes.

Weak ethics if someone claims he does something natural, while it's clearly natural to eat meat for human beings? We COULD make a decision to stop, but that would be the unnatural reason. Also sayin' that meateating isn't moral, wtf.
You should get your head out of the clouds. You do not sound any diffrent than a religious fanatist. "I'm better, you've no morals and ethics, why can't you see that you're all wrong and my way is better". That's not how this discussion goes, and definitly not what the TO wanted.

To put it simple:
We're the dominant species, we decide what we eat and who survives. Is that cruel? Not really, becuase if another species was dominant, the same would happen. Would it be wrong for animals to fight back? No, definitly not.
Someone brought up the Matrix. What the machines did wasn't wrong per se. They were dominant, we serverd as "food". But we tried to fight back, which was also our right to do.
Those "everyone lives in peace"-utopias just don't work, that's not how this world works.

In the end everyone should be able to eat what he wants. That our food distribution is horrible is nothing new, but that's a political and economical problem not a philosophical.

PS:
Still animal cruelty should be punished hard. I may sound contradictonary to some because of what i wrote, but treating animal with respect is important.

 

[Mariakko]

I like to eat meat because it tastes really good. It's like Tobacco, drugs, and alcohol, We may not need to consume them but we do it anyway because we enjoy it.

 

[surg3n]

Yada yada vegan yada yada murder animals yada yada your all evil.

Did I get the jist?

Meat tastes good for a reason - in fact every month I buy the biggest steaks I can get my hands on, I mean the steak still has a freakin name when I buy it. Mashed potatoes, peppercorn sauce, mushrooms... hmmm.

I dated a vegan and tried a lot of her 'food' - and really if I wanted to loose weight, thats the way to do it, because the food is just so horrific that you can't eat. Maybe it's like diet coke, where if all you drink is regular, diet coke probably tastes like poison - but then if you persevere, diet coke tastes like normal coke, and normal coke starts to taste too sweet. I guess you have to train (or kill) your tastebuds for vegan food.

But a steak the size of a grown mans face is a sight to behold, it's the sort of thing you take a picture of, and put on Facebook so others might seethe at the sight of your superior dinner. When I make chilli, I would rather die than use quorn - because people with a varied diet have more refined tastebuds, and you don't get that with vegetarian or vegan diets.

It's like denying the awesomeness of pork, lamb, seafood, bacon, chicken, beef, venison, bacon... that's too much awesome for anyone to really feel guilty about, if god wants us to stop eating these animals, then he needs to stop making them so delicious. All you vegans know, in your heart, that nothing would make you happier than a porkchop sandwich.